JSB .22 Redesign

[Solo1]

If they've got that good of a handle on the variations that they're intentionally producing them, seems like they should just label the variations as such and sell them that way!

It's currently a dang cracker jack box, never knowing what the "prize" inside the tin is gonna be. And often it's not a prize but a 200/350/500 count pile of dog .

Gee Cole have you even shot any of the new mrds yet? Seems to me you’re being a bit overly harsh if you haven’t.

 

[Franklink]

Gee Cole have you even shot any of the new mrds yet? Seems to me you’re being a bit overly harsh if you haven’t.

I'm more than willing to backtrack if what JSB is selling as "deep" and "shallow" prove to actually be new.

My money is that they're the same thing they've been selling all along...although from the guinea pigs that have commented so far, they're just more of the same.

Between barrels, guns, and pellets Ive spent north of $5k trying to get those blasted things to shoot well at 100 yards. I'm hanging onto my dollars for now. It'll take some pretty serious convincing to make me part with any more of them for the .22/25.4 Monster RD.

 

[Solo1]

I'm more than willing to backtrack if what JSB is selling as "deep" and "shallow" prove to actually be new.

My money is that they're the same thing they've been selling all along...although from the guinea pigs that have commented so far, they're just more of the same.

Between barrels, guns, and pellets Ive spent north of $5k trying to get those blasted things to shoot well at 100 yards.

Yes but have you shot the new ones yet? From what I’ve seen so far they are much more consistent in weight and size than the old mrds seems to me you should give the new ones half a chance to prove they are better or not

 

[Franklink]

Nope. Not wasting any more money on them until there's a reason to do so.

I've got other pellets that shoot just fine un-weighed and unsorted. Pellets shouldn't need to be weighed and sorted to shoot well, doing so is just a bandaid or a confidence boosting activity.

Sorting MRDs doesn't fix them. It reduces flyer frequency, but there's still too many that don't behave in flight. If sorting was the solution there wouldn't still be flyers after sorting.

I've shot a lot of unweighed and unsorted pellets (non .22 MRDs) that were more than acceptable. And by acceptable I'm talking going where they should, whether in a ft match, on paper, or on pests.

(@Solo1, I'm into my second tin of Grands, 99% of them @ 100 yards, but haven't arrived at a conclusion on them yet).

 

[Ballisticboy]

I did try to look at the problems of shooting pellets out to 100 yards and reported on it here on AGN. The main problem for heavy pellets seems to be the extra lead, which is needed for the heavy weights, has to be put inside the flare if the pellet length is not to be significantly increased. The extra lead in the flare moves the centre of gravity back towards the aerodynamic centre which upsets the aerodynamics and, coupled with the low loss in spin rate compared to the loss in forward velocity, produces very long yaw wave lengths at the longer ranges. The long yaw wave lengths then translate into spiralling and other effects. Of course, if the yaw is very small to start with, it is less of a problem, but there may still be some loss of accuracy with some pellet designs.

The common way around the problem is to use rifles with relatively slow twist rates and lower muzzle velocities, and carefully match the pellet to the dimensions of the barrel to launch them as perfectly as possible. This reduces the problem, but it does not cure it. To cure the problem entirely needs the spin rate to reduce at the same rate as the forward velocity, or to take a different approach to the design and keep the centre of gravity and the aerodynamic centre as far apart as possible.

Firing at a higher angle does not affect the stability of a pellet. The pellet would have to reach altitudes where the air is significantly thinner for there to be any effect. The changes in elevation angle of the gun for airgun shooting is insignificant unless you are trying to get the maximum range, and even then the maximum height of the trajectory is nothing to worry about as the angles are still relatively low.

In the thread about the aerodynamic stability of pellets, the term "lift" is just used to describe any aerodynamic force acting at right angles to the direction of the airflow, not like aircraft where it refers to the vertical force. Projectile "lift" can be in any direction, up, down, right or left or any combination of two of the directions.

 

[KodiakJac]

My money is that they're the same thing they've been selling all along...although from the guinea pigs that have commented so far, they're just more of the same.

I'm becoming suspicious of the same thing. Here is a possibility...

JSB has all these different MRD dies producing different shaped pellets that we've all seen (for what reason God only knows). So, they decide to turn their inconsistent MRD dies into a marketing opportunity. They sort them into two groups of "kinda sorta shallow" and "kinda sorta deep" and package them as such. I'm concerned there are no new MRD dies, just the old ones sorted and packaged differently.

Brilliant! Two new products with the same old dies!

 

[Franklink]

I'm becoming suspicious of the same thing. Here is a possibility...

JSB has all these different MRD dies producing different shaped pellets that we've all seen (for what reason God only knows). So, they decide to turn their inconsistent MRD dies into a marketing opportunity. They sort them into two groups of "kinda sorta shallow" and "kinda sorta deep" and package them as such. I'm concerned there are no new MRD dies, just the old ones sorted and packaged differently.

Brilliant! Two new products with the same old dies!

And I bet tomorrow they hop in and assure us that they're new dies.

??? No way to know, but we should all buy a bunch more and try em out!!!

 

[Ta-Ta Toothie]

We can only hope that H&N is taking note of this thread, and the others like it, and seizes an opportunity here to maybe innovate some new products.

I'm becoming suspicious of the same thing. Here is a possibility...

JSB has all these different MRD dies producing different shaped pellets that we've all seen (for what reason God only knows). So, they decide to turn their inconsistent MRD dies into a marketing opportunity. They sort them into two groups of "kinda sorta shallow" and "kinda sorta deep" and package them as such. I'm concerned there are no new MRD dies, just the old ones sorted and packaged differently.

Brilliant! Two new products with the same old dies!

Kinda like the worm wood fence planks of the 70' and 80's.

 

[Centercut]

I have ten tins of the new 28.55 grain Grands I’ll test from my .22 Red Wolf HP. Back in 2019 when you could buy decent RDMs it was very very good at 100Y, I had quite a few 100Y scores in the low 230s. Then ammo quality went to sh!t, and I ended up shifting to .25 Heavy.

 

[Ricochet]

I have a question. They say that the redesigns were phenomenal at one point in time. Ive only been at this a few years now. My question is, did the quality of the ammo decrease before or after we started having the competitions with big big paychecks and sponsored shooters??? If it was afterward, i would suspect the mfr is sabotaging the general public, and supplying certain competitors with better quality ammo. Just a thought, with no backing to be clear.

 

[Centercut]

I got a chance to shoot the Grand 28.55 grain from my .22 Red Wolf HP this weekend. I went through about a full tin. Spectacularly unimpressive. No better than the current lineup of 25.4 grain RD Monsters. BC was slightly better, but 0.58 to 0.59 is still not much better than the old lighter version, and a tad less than .25 Heavy pellets from JSB or JTS. Accuracy was also no better in my RW than the RD Monsters...

 

[tommyb]

I got a chance to shoot the Grand 28.55 grain from my .22 Red Wolf HP this weekend. I went through about a full tin. Spectacularly unimpressive. No better than the current lineup of 25.4 grain RD Monsters. BC was slightly better, but 0.58 to 0.59 is still not much better than the old lighter version, and a tad less than .25 Heavy pellets from JSB or JTS. Accuracy was also no better in my RW than the RD Monsters...

Thanks Mike.

I was afraid of this, but so was everyone else here.

I have 5 tins coming from PYA, and I may call them to reduce or cancel my order. I am going to test in my RAW. Assuming you tested at 100?

 

[Centercut]

Thanks Mike.

I was afraid of this, but so was everyone else here.

I have 5 tins coming from PYA, and I may call them to reduce or cancel my order. I am going to test in my RAW. Assuming you tested at 100?

Yes. 100Y in windy conditions.

 

[manabeknives]

No better than the current lineup of 25.4 grain RD Monsters. Accuracy was also no better in my RW than the RD Monsters...

Are you refering to the "Shallow and Deep" mrds or the ones before?
Thanks
Mike

 

[Centercut]

Are you refering to the "Shallow and Deep" mrds or the ones before?
Thanks
Mike

I’m referring to all of them. I haven’t tried the new Shallow, but from what I hear it’s the same as the latest pellets that have been available just before Shallow or Deep. Maybe they’ll work in some barrels, so you owe it to yourself to try. I’m walking away from .22 and will concentrate on .25 or .30. All I really wanted was a .22 pellet as good as the 18.1 grain Exact Heavy. That pellet and the .25 King 25.4 grain are the best most accurate pellets JSB has ever made.

 

[beerthief]

With the vague wording, and the way it goes in advertising and marketing, both JSB and AA presidents could very well be making factual statements.

Been a while since I saw the JSB factory video but seems like he said something along the lines of "our dies."

Which is also what the Air Arms president is saying.

JSB, being what it is, either makes their own dies or has a VERY trusted 3rd party making them, either way, they're proprietary JSB dies.

Air Arms is a gun manufacturer, not a pellet manufacturer. Logically, I can't see AA making their own dies, nor even having the know-how to do such.

So, I would guess it's a situation where JSB made the dies (hence making it true that they are "their" dies) and AA pays an exclusivity fee so that all JSB pellets branded as Air Arms are made with those AA designated dies.

They can both say that the Air Arms branded JSB pellets are "made with our dies."

I was in Advertising for a few years so this sounds VERY plausible .

 

[manabeknives]

I’m referring to all of them. I haven’t tried the new Shallow, but from what I hear it’s the same as the latest pellets that have been available just before Shallow or Deep. Maybe they’ll work in some barrels, so you owe it to yourself to try. I’m walking away from .22 and will concentrate on .25 or .30. All I really wanted was a .22 pellet as good as the 18.1 grain Exact Heavy. That pellet and the .25 King 25.4 grain are the best most accurate pellets JSB has ever made.

Thanks for the reply. Have a great day
Mike

 

[bob68]

Hi Bob, have you had a chance to try any of these at 100 meters yet?

Yes, I did.
Sorry, missed your reply. Both Deep and Shallow perform well out of my Wildcat BT Compact at 100 yards.
So do the Grands. All perform like the old Redesigns did, so no surprises there. The Hades didn't do well long distance, but out to say 65 meters they're ok.
The AvengeX doesn't like any of them, but the more I test that gun, the worse it gets. Long story...

 

[Franklink]

I've got to backtrack a bit on my .22 Monster RD stance. And here's why.

I recently reconfigured a gun (barrel/reg pressure/hammer tension/valving/etc), intending the "tune" to be used for the Grands. Grabbed it to head to the back pasture for some accuracy testing, and on a whim, had the idea to grab a tin of .22 Monster RDs instead of the Grands. These aren't any of the new production MRDs, I'd guess that I purchased them around 2022. Maybe one of the better batches that I've had, but certainly a batch I've struggled with, typically producing random flyers from various barrels at various speeds. Historically with this batch of MRDs, the average EBR scores have probably been something like 205 to 220, across LOTS of shooting and lots experimenting to get them better.

So, shot them from the gun with the new "tune" and they scored a 234 on that first card. Okay, eyebrows raised. Zero flyers, they all went pretty much where I'd expect, with what the wind was doing and my slight user inputs here and there. First thought-FLUKE! I've since gotten that gun and the 2022 MRDs out in 3 more sessions over the last couple weeks. A total of 5 cards have been shot. They are: the original 234, a 237, a 222 (windiest day), 238 and a 224. There have been a few shots that hit slightly lower than expected, but overall, it's been a night and day difference with this new "tune." The average of those 5 cards is a 231. Mathematically, averaging a 231 versus the prior 210-220 doesn't sound like much, but that's a big difference when shooting a card at 100 yards.

They're not my currently best performing long range pellet, but the new "tune" has produced a HUGE difference in how much tighter they're grouping than any and all previous attempts. I wish I knew what was different about how the gun is configured to have changed things so drastically. A friend suggested that it's perhaps not just the speed that makes a difference in how the MRDs shoot, and that's a better idea than anything I can come up with. I've not found any other pellet to perform so drastically different, just based on how the gun is configured. This little experience has lead to some deep ponderings in the last two or so weeks.

 

[Dairyboy]

I've got to backtrack a bit on my .22 Monster RD stance. And here's why.

I recently reconfigured a gun (barrel/reg pressure/hammer tension/valving/etc), intending the "tune" to be used for the Grands. Grabbed it to head to the back pasture for some accuracy testing, and on a whim, had the idea to grab a tin of .22 Monster RDs instead of the Grands. These aren't any of the new production MRDs, I'd guess that I purchased them around 2022. Maybe one of the better batches that I've had, but certainly a batch I've struggled with, typically producing random flyers from various barrels at various speeds. Historically with this batch of MRDs, the average EBR scores have probably been something like 205 to 220, across LOTS of shooting and lots experimenting to get them better.

So, shot them from the gun with the new "tune" and they scored a 234 on that first card. Okay, eyebrows raised. Zero flyers, they all went pretty much where I'd expect, with what the wind was doing and my slight user inputs here and there. First thought-FLUKE! I've since gotten that gun and the 2022 MRDs out in 3 more sessions over the last couple weeks. A total of 5 cards have been shot. They are: the original 234, a 237, a 222 (windiest day), 238 and a 224. There have been a few shots that hit slightly lower than expected, but overall, it's been a night and day difference with this new "tune." The average of those 5 cards is a 231. Mathematically, averaging a 231 versus the prior 210-220 doesn't sound like much, but that's a big difference when shooting a card at 100 yards.

They're not my currently best performing long range pellet, but the new "tune" has produced a HUGE difference in how much tighter they're grouping than any and all previous attempts. I wish I knew what was different about how the gun is configured to have changed things so drastically. A friend suggested that it's perhaps not just the speed that makes a difference in how the MRDs shoot, and that's a better idea than anything I can come up with. I've not found any other pellet to perform so drastically different, just based on how the gun is configured. This little experience has lead to some deep ponderings in the last two or so weeks.

What changed about the tune from the MRDs to the Grands tune?