White squirrels

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Scouty said:
It sounds like you have a population of leucistic squirrel and that are also carriers of amelanism.

Both leucism and amelanism are single gene recessive traits but are different loci (aka different genes) so both traits can be expressed in the same individual. But usually the only phenotypic difference is in the eyes.

A white squirrel with pink eyes in this case would mean a squirrel that is homozygous recessive for both leucism and amelanism.

A white squirrel with dark blue eyes or eyes that appear black/brown would suggest a squirrel that is homozygous recessive for leucism and at best heterozygous (aka a carrier) for amelanism.

In this case amelanism more or less means albino.

Normal looking squirrel could be carriers for both traits.
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Leucism. That's the word I was looking for. I could NOT recall what it was called, but that's it. That's what one group believes is the cause of our white squirrels. The other group says albinism because there are white squirrels here that have the pink colored eyes. It's an interesting and ongoing battle between the two groups. I have to wonder what difference it makes whether it is leucism or abinism. The end result is a good population of white squirrels that do, in fact, repopulate. It's an oddity that the city can use to garner more tourism. I don't know why anyone wants to shoot and kill them, at least in the city limits, but I don't believe it's illegal to shoot an albino squirrel in the wild in Illinois. You can't shoot an albino deer, but I don't believe there is any law against shooting any other albino.
 
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smhardesty said:
I have to wonder what difference it makes whether it is leucism or albinism.
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Difference to the squirrel? Or difference to the people arguing over it? Or something else entirely?

As far as to the squirrel, a leucistic animal would presumably have fewer vision problems over the course of its lifetime and be able to produce more litters of leucistic and leucistic carrying kittens.

If you meant the people arguing over it, these traits are not mutually exclusive. One gene controls the production of the pigment melanin. The other gene acts as a switch or a valve that limits the distribution of it. It is not surprising that both traits exist in a wild population of squirrel that is offered some degree of protection.
 
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Scouty said:
Difference to the squirrel? Or difference to the people arguing over it? Or something else entirely?
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I was referring to the people with differing opinions. There are also two different stories as to how this town got it's first white squirrels. There is no way to prove either story is correct, so why bother with the discussion, either heated or not. The city officials have done the correct thing in posting both versions of how the little critters were first introduced here. I've read both versions and one seems every bit as plausible as the other.

As for the two sides debating exactly what causes the white fur, it seems funny to me that anybody would get overly heated when discussing what causes it. I'm certainly no expert on the matter so I listen to what those with expertise in the field have to say. I think that what you have stated is the correct explanation, but I'm sure not going to get into a heated discussion with someone that believes it's abinism. I don't have the knowledge to argue either point, so I stay quiet when the discussions break out. I'd say the majority of people lean towards believing it's leucism because of the great number of photos that clearly show dark eyes on the little critters, but there are those who refuse to sway in their beliefs. I'm not about to try and change their minds. LOL! I have some photos I took with a 1200mm lens and the eyes on the squirrel are absolutely dark, almost black. A buddy of mine who also is an amateur photog has a series of shots he took with a similar lens and that squirrel had really pink eyes. So, it's obvious that both types of squirrels do exist in town,
 
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smhardesty said:
The "powers that be" in this town have said the animal shelter will no longer accept a cat that has been trapped. I tried. They refuse to take them. That was also one of the arguments I made when I was in the heated discussion with several local residents. I simply explained to all of them that if they choose to let their cats roam freely and one enters my yard, I am in my legal right to trap and dispose of the cat as I see fit. Since there is nowhere local to take the cat, disposing of them would be however I see fit. WOW! I was threatened with all sorts of violence. I actually took a printout of one of the threats to the local police chief. Some little gal said she was going to get a couple of her big boyfriends to come to my house and beat the s**t out of me. Seriously, and all over a cat. The police did, at least, take that threat seriously. They made a visit to the little gal's house. Not sure what transpired, but I haven't been threatened since. One other gal posted on Facebook that my wife had been caught torturing and killing a pit bull. You would have to know my wife to realize just how utterly ludicrous that statement was. And again, all because a few people choose to allow their cats to roam freely.
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Cats are easy to dispose of ... you can ask some of my neighbors who seem to have missing cats ;)

I can't stand an irresponsible pet owner!

These are really cool looking, now just imagine how many of these you would have running around if the cats were not on the prowl! Would be neat to see one of these with one of the jet black squirrels as well.
 
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woogie_man said:
Cats are easy to dispose of ... you can ask some of my neighbors who seem to have missing cats ;)

I can't stand an irresponsible pet owner!

These are really cool looking, now just imagine how many of these you would have running around if the cats were not on the prowl! Would be neat to see one of these with one of the jet black squirrels as well.
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I attempted to make the argument that the roaming cats are responsible, in part at least, for the declining numbers of white squirrels. Now, this was on Facebook for all to see. A gal had accused me of being a no good, lousy animal hater because I was going to trap the cats in this neighborhood. I pointed out that if she was TRULY an animal lover she would keep her cat inside her house. Her response was that I was only concerned with a bunch of stupid, f***king squirrels and not a "real animal" like her cat. That's no joke. That's what she said. Amazingly, it was her cat that developed lead poisoning 2 evenings ago. So sad,,,,, NOT! LOL!
 
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woogie_man said:
Those are cool looking. Like stated by others... would give that guy a pass. Though would be really cool looking on a nice display as well.

Really is sad that the town lets cats run around the neighborhood. There is nothing I hate more than people that let their damn animals run around free. Especially cats up in my area.... they DESTROY the bird population and other wildlife. Those never get a pass if I am out hunting squirrels.
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Well, I will say up front that I am a cat (and dog) person. I LIKE to see the neighborhood cats roaming because they take care of at least some of the rodent (rats, mice, etc) population.

From my own observations (from owning cats for over 55 years), they don't make even a small dent in the bird populations. Most pet cats simply don't understand even the rodents as food (let alone the birds), so they play with them until they get bored and leave them alive. Anyway, I don't have a feral cat problem here, so I can't speak to those who actually have a large number of feral cats.

Feral cats are another thing, but I have no problem with the pet cats of my neighbors. At least where I live, even the feral cats are not a problem. The thought of poisoning them is abhorrent to me and says a lot about any who cheers about such conduct towards cats or dogs.

However...

I do wish pet owners would be better about spaying/neutering their pets and truly taking care of them like they were family. JMHO
 
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Scouty said:
It sounds like you have a population of leucistic squirrel and that are also carriers of amelanism.

Both leucism and amelanism are single gene recessive traits but are different loci (aka different genes) so both traits can be expressed in the same individual. But usually the only phenotypic difference is in the eyes.

A white squirrel with pink eyes in this case would mean a squirrel that is homozygous recessive for both leucism and amelanism.

A white squirrel with dark blue eyes or eyes that appear black/brown would suggest a squirrel that is homozygous recessive for leucism and at best heterozygous (aka a carrier) for amelanism.

In this case amelanism more or less means albino.

Normal looking squirrel could be carriers for both traits.
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From the pics in the OP, it is hard to tell the color of the eyes. But it sounds like you know more about white tree rats than anyone else posting here. (smile)
 
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BackStop said:
Well, I will say up front that I am a cat (and dog) person. I LIKE to see the neighborhood cats roaming because they take care of at least some of the rodent (rats, mice, etc) population.

From my own observations (from owning cats for over 55 years), they don't make even a small dent in the bird populations. Most pet cats simply don't understand even the rodents as food (let alone the birds), so they play with them until they get bored and leave them alive. Anyway, I don't have a feral cat problem here, so I can't speak to those who actually have a large number of feral cats.

Feral cats are another thing, but I have no problem with the pet cats of my neighbors. At least where I live, even the feral cats are not a problem. The thought of poisoning them is abhorrent to me and says a lot about any who cheers about such conduct towards cats or dogs.

However...

I do wish pet owners would be better about spaying/neutering their pets and truly taking care of them like they were family. JMHO
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Please don't misunderstand, BackStop. I don't dislike cats, or dogs for that matter. I also fully understand that any dog or cat can occasionally get away from its owner. Those dogs and cats don't worry me in the least. I'm only ticked with the pet owners that very intentionally and deliberately allow their pets to roam freely in direct violation of local ordinances.

It's like pretty much everything else in life. Your rights and privileges end where mine begin. In the case of these cats, if all they did was walk down the street going from one place to another, I probably wouldn't care. That's not the case, unfortunately.

This spring I ordered some special, old time, heirloom flower seeds. I started them indoors and transplanted them outdoors into a 12' flower garden and 4 large flower pots. Within a week's time every plant in the pots had been dug up by one or more cats and in place of the flower the cat(s) left a big, stinking pile of crap. They dug up over half the plants in the flower bed. This is when the dingbat gal told me I needed to put mothballs everywhere and fences around all my flowers. It doesn't work that way. The rights of the pet owner ceased when their pet entered my yard and destroyed my property.

Now, I didn't immediately try trapping or getting rid of any cats. Instead, I turned to social media and pleaded with any and all residents near my house to PLEASE keep their cats at home or on a leash. I explained why I was a bit perturbed and gave everyone 2 full weeks to get their cats in check before I set the first trap. In response to my warning, my wife and I were accused of being animal haters, my wife was accused of having tortured and killed a Pit Bull, I was told I was being stupid because I valued my flowers over their cats, and my mailbox was knocked down and run over. I was threatened multiple times including one threat I took to the local police.

A few months have now passed and I see the same exact cats still roaming freely. I will not, under any circumstance, attempt to trap, run over, or shoot any cat not on my property. If that cat is in my yard, it's a whole different ball game. Do I enjoy having to take the actions I am? No. It's disheartening to cause harm to an animal simply because it's owner chooses to be disrespectful to their neighbors.

I asked one of these gals that is angry with me about her having a nearby neighbor trap a family of raccoons from her backyard. I first asked if that had happened. She quickly admitted it had. I asked her if she knew that in the State of Illinois any wild animal that has been trapped is to be put down instead of being relocated. Her response was, "Good. Serves them right. They have no business being in my backyard." To which I replied, "touché"!
 
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WARNING ISSUED - VIOLATION RULE #2 "And, if you hurt one of my animals, you would suffer worse."
smhardesty said:
Please don't misunderstand, BackStop. I don't dislike cats, or dogs for that matter. I also fully understand that any dog or cat can occasionally get away from its owner. Those dogs and cats don't worry me in the least. I'm only ticked with the pet owners that very intentionally and deliberately allow their pets to roam freely in direct violation of local ordinances.

It's like pretty much everything else in life. Your rights and privileges end where mine begin. In the case of these cats, if all they did was walk down the street going from one place to another, I probably wouldn't care. That's not the case, unfortunately.

This spring I ordered some special, old time, heirloom flower seeds. I started them indoors and transplanted them outdoors into a 12' flower garden and 4 large flower pots. Within a week's time every plant in the pots had been dug up by one or more cats and in place of the flower the cat(s) left a big, stinking pile of crap. They dug up over half the plants in the flower bed. This is when the dingbat gal told me I needed to put mothballs everywhere and fences around all my flowers. It doesn't work that way. The rights of the pet owner ceased when their pet entered my yard and destroyed my property.

Now, I didn't immediately try trapping or getting rid of any cats. Instead, I turned to social media and pleaded with any and all residents near my house to PLEASE keep their cats at home or on a leash. I explained why I was a bit perturbed and gave everyone 2 full weeks to get their cats in check before I set the first trap. In response to my warning, my wife and I were accused of being animal haters, my wife was accused of having tortured and killed a Pit Bull, I was told I was being stupid because I valued my flowers over their cats, and my mailbox was knocked down and run over. I was threatened multiple times including one threat I took to the local police.

A few months have now passed and I see the same exact cats still roaming freely. I will not, under any circumstance, attempt to trap, run over, or shoot any cat not on my property. If that cat is in my yard, it's a whole different ball game. Do I enjoy having to take the actions I am? No. It's disheartening to cause harm to an animal simply because it's owner chooses to be disrespectful to their neighbors.

I asked one of these gals that is angry with me about her having a nearby neighbor trap a family of raccoons from her backyard. I first asked if that had happened. She quickly admitted it had. I asked her if she knew that in the State of Illinois any wild animal that has been trapped is to be put down instead of being relocated. Her response was, "Good. Serves them right. They have no business being in my backyard." To which I replied, "touché"!
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To be honest, you do sound like someone who would be very hard for me to get along with. And, if you hurt one of my animals, you would suffer worse. JMHO

Sorry, not a threat, just how I feel after reading your diatribe.
 
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smhardesty: I agree with you 100% It's pretty clear treat other as you would like to be treated.. unfortunately there has always been people that don't believe in this and of course the younger generation nowadays are overwhelmingly selfish and don't believe that rules applied to them, but when they get "busted" there is always an "excuse" instead of repentance.
 
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smhardesty said:
Please don't misunderstand, BackStop. I don't dislike cats, or dogs for that matter. I also fully understand that any dog or cat can occasionally get away from its owner. Those dogs and cats don't worry me in the least. I'm only ticked with the pet owners that very intentionally and deliberately allow their pets to roam freely in direct violation of local ordinances.

It's like pretty much everything else in life. Your rights and privileges end where mine begin. In the case of these cats, if all they did was walk down the street going from one place to another, I probably wouldn't care. That's not the case, unfortunately.

This spring I ordered some special, old time, heirloom flower seeds. I started them indoors and transplanted them outdoors into a 12' flower garden and 4 large flower pots. Within a week's time every plant in the pots had been dug up by one or more cats and in place of the flower the cat(s) left a big, stinking pile of crap. They dug up over half the plants in the flower bed. This is when the dingbat gal told me I needed to put mothballs everywhere and fences around all my flowers. It doesn't work that way. The rights of the pet owner ceased when their pet entered my yard and destroyed my property.

Now, I didn't immediately try trapping or getting rid of any cats. Instead, I turned to social media and pleaded with any and all residents near my house to PLEASE keep their cats at home or on a leash. I explained why I was a bit perturbed and gave everyone 2 full weeks to get their cats in check before I set the first trap. In response to my warning, my wife and I were accused of being animal haters, my wife was accused of having tortured and killed a Pit Bull, I was told I was being stupid because I valued my flowers over their cats, and my mailbox was knocked down and run over. I was threatened multiple times including one threat I took to the local police.

A few months have now passed and I see the same exact cats still roaming freely. I will not, under any circumstance, attempt to trap, run over, or shoot any cat not on my property. If that cat is in my yard, it's a whole different ball game. Do I enjoy having to take the actions I am? No. It's disheartening to cause harm to an animal simply because it's owner chooses to be disrespectful to their neighbors.

I asked one of these gals that is angry with me about her having a nearby neighbor trap a family of raccoons from her backyard. I first asked if that had happened. She quickly admitted it had. I asked her if she knew that in the State of Illinois any wild animal that has been trapped is to be put down instead of being relocated. Her response was, "Good. Serves them right. They have no business being in my backyard." To which I replied, "touché"!
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Going to have to agree with you here. I raise chickens in my back yard. There was a neighbor that would walk her huskies in the corn field behind my house. When it snowed, she would take off their leashes because it caused her fatigue walking them. One of the Huskies would stroll into my yard, and try to get into the chicken coop. I saw this a few times, but my coop was made well, and I had no doubts it would hold out a Husky.
Boy was I wrong. I came home a few weeks later to the door of my coop open, and ALL of my chickens slaughtered, but only one missing. I followed the blood trail in the snow, and guess where it lead me?
I approached the neighbor calmly (after finding my missing chicken in a plastic bag thrown in the woods outside her house), and asked if she knew what happened. She tried to deny it till I showed her the proof. Then she offered to pay. I took the money, even though it was going to be a pain to try and raise more chicks from scratch again before they would start laying. Months later, the husky was back. I saw the owner again in the cornfield, and calmly said, please keep your dog off my property, or I will take matters into my own hands. The dog has not been back.

While I have 2 dogs and a cat of my own, I make sure they are always on my property or leashed. It is the owners responsibility to have accountability for their animals, and if they don’t, someone has to.
 
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BackStop said:
To be honest, you do sound like someone who would be very hard for me to get along with. And, if you hurt one of my animals, you would suffer worse. JMHO

Sorry, not a threat, just how I feel after reading your diatribe.
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OK. You're absolutely correct. I should apologize to everyone, I guess. As a responsible homeowner I should just expect my flower beds to be destroyed by your cats. I should expect to grab a handful of stinking, slimy, cat crap when I'm tending my flower beds and flower pots. I have no right to expect other residents of this town to be responsible enough to keep their pets on their property or on a leash. Pet owners who allow their pets to roam freely, destroy other peoples' property, and kill a protected animal have every right to do so. I'm a terrible person for thinking I have any rights as a resident and home owner. I see your point now,

I do, however, have to question your line of thinking and your arguments for allowing cats to roam freely. You stated, "I LIKE to see the neighborhood cats roaming because they take care of at least some of the rodent (rats, mice, etc) population", which specifies that cats kill and/or eat rodents of all sizes, which would include squirrels. But, then you stated, "Most pet cats simply don't understand even the rodents as food (let alone the birds), so they play with them until they get bored and leave them alive", which VERY specifically says that free roaming cats do NOT kill and/or eat rodents.

So, which of your arguments would you care for us to believe? And believe me when I say that from your posts I know for certain we would have problems getting along. If you truly believe your rights as a cat owner trump my right to expect to be free from destruction of even ONE of my flowers, we would not make very good neighbors.
 
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Simplemann said:
smhardesty: I agree with you 100% It's pretty clear treat other as you would like to be treated.. unfortunately there has always been people that don't believe in this and of course the younger generation nowadays are overwhelmingly selfish and don't believe that rules applied to them, but when they get "busted" there is always an "excuse" instead of repentance.
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That's an observation I have to agree with 100%. By a very WIDE margin, most of the individuals claiming their right to allow their pets to roam freely were under age 35. 100% of the threats made were by gals under age 30 with the worst of the threats made by a young gal around age 19 or 20. And again, don't anyone misunderstand me. I haven't, and won't, claim that ALL the younger set is that way. I will only say there is a large percentage of that crowd that lacks the moral compass that the majority of us old farts have.
 
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