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Barrel Vibration

Just a little excerpt from Cardew and Cardews book, "The Airgun From Trigger to Target," that I find interesting in the current atmosphere of harmonic tuners and carbon fiber tubing/epoxy situations.

Chapter 9-The Barrel
Barrel Vibration
"In the field of firearms, barrel vibration is often blamed for inaccuracy. High speed photography has been used to examine this phenomenon and shows that a rifle barrel vibrates and wriggles about like an excited snake as the bullet travels along it. This is not surprising when one considers the huge pressures generated by the burning propellant as it forces the tight fitting bullet along the tube.

We investigated barrel vibration to see if it was the cause of inaccuracy in airguns. We were interested only in vibrations caused by the pellet itself while it was in the barrel and we did not want to be concerned with any vibrations set up by a spring and piston so we used our pneumatic projector (a very solidly mounted pneumatic rifle whose barrel may be left unsupported over the majority of its length).

We mounted vibration transducers on the muzzle of a breech mounted barrel so that ay vibration would be picked up and displayed on an oscilloscope. A slight thump with a hand anywhere on the barrel would cause the trace to move violently, yet firing the gun produced very little reaction. By causing the pellet to break a circuit carried by a pencil lead as it left the barrel, we could determine whether the small amount of vibration we had seen occurred before or after the pellet had left them muzzle.

This experiment showed an insignificant amount of vibration before the pellet left, but that the small amount of movement we had seen occurred after the pellet had left. This after exit vibration could have no effect on the accuracy of the shot.

Various other experiments were embarked upon to cross check the first, also to assure ourselves that vibration played no part in the production of large groups. In one instance we clamped a heavy lathe chuck on the muzzle, on another occasion we mounted the barrel in soft rubber rings, but the effect on the group sizes was negligible. The important factor always appeared to be the combination of barrel and pellet, later on we realized that in fact the combination of pellet, barrel and velocity have a far greater influence on the size of the group than any amount of vibration from a rifle in good condition."

The copy I just quoted from is copyright 1995 so this was back when true solid barrels were the only thing being used. A potential caveat is that no mention of fpe is made.
 
A semi-related bit of info.

Anyone ever seen an arrow come off of a bow (long, recurve, OR compound), or crossbow ??
IF...you JUST watched a high speed video the arrow in flight, but not the arrow hitting the target, you'd think that it would NEVER hit any sort of target, no less something 3" around, 75+ yards away ! And now that the arrows (yes...arrows) are coming off of a crossbow at over 400fps, they REALLY start whipping like a pissed off snake.

But...yeah...guess what, with all of the wave gyrations that an arrow (carbon fiber or aluminum) makes in flight...they DO, with great regularity hit a 3" circle at 75+ yards !

So yeah, spend all of that money on the gadgets, for...why...?
Just convince FX to make their barrels a tiny bit larger in diameter, and satisfy everyone (mostly!) . Aint no motion happening to a Weihrauch barrel. Simply too much material.

Mike
 
That is a great book. I had a copy but gave it to a friend.

Well I notice there that they said pneumatic rifle. I think they are probably talking about one which was built to preclude any vibration from ANYTHING other than the projectile traveling down the barrel.

Our guns have springs and hammers banging around inside them. Even our PCP guns have springs and hammers banging around inside them. I think they demonstrated that the cause of the vibrations we ARE seeing is not due to the projectile moving down the barrel.

You can prove for yourself that vibration does affect our barrels by using a series of washers under your moderator and checking group size. You'll discover the grows and shrinks depending upon how many washers are installed.

It is interesting to know that these vibrations are not because of the projectile traveling down the bore.
 
A person of ordinary intelligence can turn over all the stones in a field and observe what’s below them.

A smart person prefers to devise tests, equipment, calculations, and seemingly parallel experiments to determine what’s under the stones without turning them over. If they are really smart they will publish their work and impress many. 😀
 
A person of ordinary intelligence can turn over all the stones in a field and observe what’s below them.

A smart person prefers to devise tests, equipment, calculations, and seemingly parallel experiments to determine what’s under the stones without turning them over. If they are really smart they will publish their work and impress many. 😀
You mean like Cardew and Cardew did? That's a lot of work. Too much for this average old man.

I'll buy you a copy if you say you will read it.
 
They describe the pneumatic device in greater detail later on in the book. From their description it could operate at the same type of pressures we're using in current/modern airguns.

Yes, they did perform some very well-designed experiments, and shared them in their book. Much of it is springer-heavy, but a lot of what they did has crossover into PCPs. For example, they made a machine that allowed a pellet to be held by small tube and mouth suction tube (so no distortion was imparted to the original shape). This device spun the pellet up to revolutions similar to what rifling would produce. They could then release the suction and the pellet would spin like a top when it fell a short distance to a hard surface, or not if it was imbalanced or otherwise imperfect.
 
I have been chasing archery competitions for almost two decades and I built my own long range arrows from scratch. Along the years I started building my own instruments/tools to measure and test (arrow) tubes, and I shoot my arrows. And it was a learning curve how to calculate and predict oscillations.
Also I am not a best shooter but I am good with mathematics, as a mechanical designer and I have been exposed to FEA analysis, so I did a bit of deeper dive into learning about frequencies that happening in tubes/pipes.
To project this my previous knowledge to airgun barrels specifically to FX liners ... I have some my own views regards to "... tuners and carbon fiber tubing/epoxy situations...".
In any tube -hollow or full rod - there is - and must be - an amount of oscillation, cannot remove that but you can slide the nodes slightly along the tube with external gizmos. And just a short answer to epoxying the CF tube to a liner - I am against the idea, and whoever want to learn the opposite please free and do it. There are less harmful way of dampening the amplitude and wavelengths.
Just a very quick explanations :)
When you tightening the speed ES and SD you changing the physics (friction) how the tube oscillates ... coming closer and closer to smallest SD numbers and tightening the group size getting smaller ... and suddenly there you got a flyer and again and again ... not a smallest SD gives you smallest group size ;)
 
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I'm just commenting so not much to offer here.

In the firearms rifle world there is a test of sorts to find a barrel node. It's called the-

These ladder tests worked for me on many occasions when I would buy a new rifle or have a new barrel installed. It's really cool to see it work in real life at 300Y to 400Y away. My 2nd to last barrel showed the most obvious results. Out of 10 or so shots, all slightly higher on powder charge weight, there were 3 consecutive shots touching at 320Y. That was the node I chose.
When doing this test I didn't even use a chronograph because I assumed the ES was consistent enough if the vertical was small. Afterwards I used the chrono to apply that velocity for my DOPE.
I own the finish reamer so the optimal bullet seating depth had already been determined on previous barrels which I stayed with.
That load and barrel were fantastic until the barrel burned out. It gave very small vertical at long range and I won my fair share of matches with it.

Top long range BR champions will do similar tests at specific distances, like at 1000Y for example, to further reduce 1-1.5 inches from their groups, this from the loads that already shot 4"-5" at 1000Y.

I've often wondered if a similar test would work for airguns??
I do know after watching Mike N adjust the HST that doing so really works because my Thomas HPX shot almost twice as good within 10 minutes of him adjusting it while shooting groups at 50Y.
Before that I had adjusted the HST for the lowest ES but the gun wasn't as precise??? I'd a thought that low ES would tighten groups but apparently it doesn't.
It seems there are a lot more mechanical things to juggle around when tuning airguns which are not barrel related but affect how well the rifle shoots.
But the barrel and ammo are the other half of the equation.

Its all a mystery to me how the many aspects of tuning in airguns comes together to bring the tightest precision???
 
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It took reading about one paragraph of their conclusions to realize they are completely wrong based on simple empirical data I can obtain and repeat in a few minutes.

I’m good…thanks for the offer.
Pride goeth before the fall. Suit yourself. Offer was made sincerely. I've decided to replace the other I gave to John Thomas so I'll just keep it.
 
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