Are we doing hunter class wrong?

scotton · Aug 17, 2023

My friend (frenemy) Mark posted something in a thread for a new shooter asking for recommendations and it got me thinking.
Here's what Mark said:

OkAirgunner said:
... But be sure to put money back for a high quality scope, in the hunter class limited to 16X a really good scope is imperative.

Mark

I'm not calling Mark out for his comment, it's very valid for the current state of hunter class. But it made me wonder, are we doing this wrong?

The original intention of the magnification limit for hunter class was so people didn't have to have a high end scope to be competitive. I wonder if the fact that you "need" a $800+ scope to shoot hunter class competitively is part of what's holding back the growth of our sport.

I think a more level playing field could be established if we went to a 24x hard magnification limit. So you could have a scope that goes up to maximum of 24x and shoot at 24x, but the scope couldn't be higher than 24x. No more 40x, 50x or 60x scopes in hunter class.

This isn't going to happen because almost every top hunter class shooter is shooting a big Sightron and they don't want to give them up. But I think that would make hunter class fun again and help "level the playing field", not to mention all of the old man fights we would get to be a part of that go along with rule changes to hunter class. Although the fact that I posted this here and not at the other site should show that I want to talk about this, not fight about it.

Funny side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a hunter class shooter on the BOG. I mean, Jeff occasionally shoots hunter class at monthly matches, but I think he's being ironic. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, I think everyone on the BOG is well respected (at least by me) and we voted them in. But maybe in the future we could establish seats on the board for each class so that everyone feels represented. Just a thought. I mean, we are such a tiny sport, eventually we will all be on the board at some point.

beerthief · Aug 17, 2023

scotton said:
My friend (frenemy) Mark posted something in a thread for a new shooter asking for recommendations and it got me thinking.
Here's what Mark said:

I'm not calling Mark out for his comment, it's very valid for the current state of hunter class. But it made me wonder, are we doing this wrong?

The original intention of the magnification limit for hunter class was so people didn't have to have a high end scope to be competitive. I wonder if the fact that you "need" a $800+ scope to shoot hunter class competitively is part of what's holding back the growth of our sport.

I think a more level playing field could be established if we went to a 24x hard magnification limit. So you could have a scope that goes up to maximum of 24x and shoot at 24x, but the scope couldn't be higher than 24x. No more 40x, 50x or 60x scopes in hunter class.

This isn't going to happen because almost every top hunter class shooter is shooting a big Sightron and they don't want to give them up. But I think that would make hunter class fun again and help "level the playing field", not to mention all of the old man fights we would get to be a part of that go along with rule changes to hunter class. Although the fact that I posted this here and not at the other site should show that I want to talk about this, not fight about it.

Funny side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a hunter class shooter on the BOG. I mean, Jeff occasionally shoots hunter class at monthly matches, but I think he's being ironic. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, I think everyone on the BOG is well respected (at least by me) and we voted them in. But maybe in the future we could establish seats on the board for each class so that everyone feels represented. Just a thought. I mean, we are such a tiny sport, eventually we will all be on the board at some point.

isn't this right along with the "total money spent is$1000.00 for rifle and scope idea ? this being the idea that no $4000 gun competing against a $400 gun.
SSDD !

Sqwirl57 · Aug 17, 2023

I have a buddy who shoots hunter class with a UTG Swat and does pretty well. Its a 20fpe limit which means those guns are basically laser beams out to 55yds. You do not need high end glass to be competitive. You need to be able to range well from 10-18yds which really any 16x can do well.

trlrman · Aug 17, 2023

scotton said:
I mean, we are such a tiny sport, eventually we will all be on the board at some point.

I'd vote for you !

beerthief · Aug 17, 2023

I think ANYBODY can win with almost any equipment , All it takes is a lot of practice so you know every aspect of your gun . Knowing exactly how your gun shoots in any wind or any conditions .

drsquall · Aug 17, 2023

I am just starting in this game so take with a grain of salt. I see no problem competing with whatever you want regardless of price. As everyone has said it's not the gun but the person using it. If can afford a 3000 dollar gun and a 1500 scope go for it. If guys complain they are getting beat because so so is shooting a higher end gun, I don't think that's the real problem. If you fine and competing well with "cheaper" stuff great but don't get upset with someone who chooses to spend more money for what they want to shoot. I only shoot piston class at the moment and run a tx200 with a cs1000 and just got a sightron and is better than any scope I have tried so far. If I could find a scope that snapped in as good and was more affordable I would. Probably is just don't know.
Even with what I consider the top of line springer and scope I still suck. Lol

Jon

beerthief · Aug 17, 2023

drsquall said:
I am just starting in this game so take with a grain of salt. I see no problem competing with whatever you want regardless of price. As everyone has said it's not the gun but the person using it. If can afford a 3000 dollar gun and a 1500 scope go for it. If guys complain they are getting beat because so so is shooting a higher end gun, I don't think that's the real problem. If you fine and competing well with "cheaper" stuff great but don't get upset with someone who chooses to spend more money for what they want to shoot. I only shoot piston class at the moment and run a tx200 with a cs1000 and just got a sightron and is better than any scope I have tried so far. If I could find a scope that snapped in as good and was more affordable I would. Probably is just don't know.
Even with what I consider the top of line springer and scope I still suck. Lol

Jon

practice in any conditions , a lot . lot's and lot's . you can make some targets and place at ANY distance to range and hit . Another guy suggested to walk in the woods and just pick out a target . range and shoot . A leaf or weed anything .

rob_g · Aug 17, 2023

You can leave Hunter class scopes at 16X max usable magnification but eliminate the use of parallax for ranging. This would eliminate the need for higher end scopes. Shooters would be required to eyeball the target and guestimate the range. This puts a lot of the skill required back on the shooter and takes it off the equipment. 24X scopes can still be used but must be set at the 16X magnification. A simple piece of tape covers the graduations on the parallax knob

JP806TX · Aug 17, 2023

scotton said:
My friend (frenemy) Mark posted something in a thread for a new shooter asking for recommendations and it got me thinking.
Here's what Mark said:

I'm not calling Mark out for his comment, it's very valid for the current state of hunter class. But it made me wonder, are we doing this wrong?

The original intention of the magnification limit for hunter class was so people didn't have to have a high end scope to be competitive. I wonder if the fact that you "need" a $800+ scope to shoot hunter class competitively is part of what's holding back the growth of our sport.

I think a more level playing field could be established if we went to a 24x hard magnification limit. So you could have a scope that goes up to maximum of 24x and shoot at 24x, but the scope couldn't be higher than 24x. No more 40x, 50x or 60x scopes in hunter class.

This isn't going to happen because almost every top hunter class shooter is shooting a big Sightron and they don't want to give them up. But I think that would make hunter class fun again and help "level the playing field", not to mention all of the old man fights we would get to be a part of that go along with rule changes to hunter class. Although the fact that I posted this here and not at the other site should show that I want to talk about this, not fight about it.

Funny side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a hunter class shooter on the BOG. I mean, Jeff occasionally shoots hunter class at monthly matches, but I think he's being ironic. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, I think everyone on the BOG is well respected (at least by me) and we voted them in. But maybe in the future we could establish seats on the board for each class so that everyone feels represented. Just a thought. I mean, we are such a tiny sport, eventually we will all be on the board at some point.

If you look only at numbers (specifically number of participants).

WE ARE DOING HUNTER CLASS RIGHT.

In sheer numbers, it has consistently beaten other AAFTA classes in most American FT matches (in the last 10 years?...or dare I say since its inception?)
---
Well mostly right...I'm looking at other Hunter FT venues and their numbers...hmmm

1.shooting lying down...that's almost like a sleeping position...and as a bonus they let you lie on a pad...comfy... and I know most of us sleep lying down and not sitting on a bucket. (you can combine sleeping and shooting, two of my favorite pastimes)
2.Do not touch your scope during the match ...forces the use of low magnification scopes = relatively lower price (easy on the pocket book. no touch= less wear and tear on the scope. No touch forces eyeball range estimation Another plus, plus, plus).
3.Below 12FPE...forces you to learn your dope and the wind (you thought 20FPE was hard? try 12 FPE)...less power, less wear and tear on your equipment and targets, (less damage if you hit a sliding glass door...that's a story for another day) another plus plus plus.

With this Hunter venue, it looked like it was designed to address the equipment race element head on and to "level the playing field" by highlighting shooter abilities not equipment.

The question becomes why are some trying to "level the playing field" by going in the opposite direction and suggesting that we increase scope magnification for American Hunter FT once again?

scotton · Aug 17, 2023

Just to be clear, I'm not crying because guys are beating me with better equipment. Guys are beating me with ANY equipment. That's just a reflection of my skill level, not their equipment level. My point was that the equipment race aspect of hunter class is setting a higher bar that newer shooters have to hurdle. I think it would help our sport grow (or at least maintain current levels) if we can lower the bar to entry so that new shooters feel like they can be competitive without having to buy a RAW and Sightron right off the bat.

Here is how things seem to go currently: In a 6 month span, a club will get 5 new shooters. They will be using a $500 PCP and a $400 scope. A year later, one of those shooters will still be coming out and they will have a Raw or Daystate with a Sightron SIII. The other 4 shooters will never be seen again. I'm trying to figure out how to keep the four shooters that left.

shootermeb · Aug 17, 2023

scotton said:
... how to keep the four shooters that left.

Find a good shooter and have them use the budget equipment and still win. Proof that it can be done.

Although, I think there will always be some amount of attrition. Change in hobbies and priorities, bruised egos.

I personally don't think a top of the line scope is necessary, because max distance is 55 yards, and you don't need to put clicks on the scope and have it be reliable. Glass in budget scopes are good enough. My go to is the UTG Accushot SWAT 4-16x - less than $200, just set it to 16x and figure everything out from there. I'd rather spend the $$ on a good gun, and if someone asked me what to get, I'd suggest a Daystate Huntsman - light weight and accurate. Other budget friendly options are the Marauder or Avenger, but they have their tradeoffs compared to the huntsman. If you want to shoot a springer, HW97 is my preference.

scotton · Aug 17, 2023

rob_g said:
You can leave Hunter class scopes at 16X max usable magnification but eliminate the use of parallax for ranging. This would eliminate the need for higher end scopes. Shooters would be required to eyeball the target and guestimate the range. This puts a lot of the skill required back on the shooter and takes it off the equipment. 24X scopes can still be used but must be set at the 16X magnification. A simple piece of tape covers the graduations on the parallax knob

That sound very British. If you can't focus, you don't need a magnification limit. Higher magnification hurts you in UK HFT.

Oh, you are saying you can still focus, just lose the sidewheel. That's kind of interesting. We could change the name from hunter class to bracket class. And I would spend a lot of time shaving an inch off of the sides of random cinder blocks just to mess people up. SFP scopes would be almost mandatory so that you could change the reticle size and bracket on the kill zone. The 10-15 yard shots would get much tougher.

I was about to say that the long shots wouldn't be as affected by this at 20 fpe. Then I realized, if that's the case, why am I concerned about people using big expensive scopes in hunter class? This makes me think that the issue is that an expensive 50x scope is more helpful to newer shooters that don't have the experience base for shooting at long FT targets at 16x. So a new shooter thinks "I can do better with a more expensive scope" rather than "I can do better if I shoot more". So removing the big expensive scope as an option would force shooters (especially new shooters) to focus on their skills instead of their equipment. Maybe?

Franklink · Aug 17, 2023

When I started around 7-8 years ago, I was told Hunter was meant to be the beginner class. At that time monthly matches within driving distance for me were around 50/50, Open to Hunter, with a couple WFTF, a couple springers, and another couple Unlimited guys sprinkled in.

In the last 7 years though, most of the Open class shooters gradually shifted over to Hunter. I was one of the last two Open holdouts, and shifted over to Hunter myself at the beginning of this summer. A good number of those that shifted were because of not needing to get up and down as much in Hunter, but another sizable portion (myself included) shifted simply because that's where the competition was. It's no fun to shoot in a class by myself, and it's not just about beating more people. When you're in the same class as the majority you can compare equipment and hold positions and discuss THAT class. You simply have more in common with more of your friends when you're all in the same class.

And yes, we've got some pretty pricey rigs being shot in what was originally the class meant to be for beginners. So Hunter has become NOT the beginners class, but rather where the majority are shooting now. And field target shooters like to spend money, so Hunter has expensive rigs. Simple as that.

(People buy more expensive equipment because it performs better, or at least is easier to score better with expensive equipment. When was the last time somebody that upgraded to a Sightron or a March or a Kahles decided to go back to that UTG? Or started competing with a Red Wolf after they'd been using a Benjamin and then reversed back to the Benji b/c they didn't see a difference? Practice is good and necessary and makes probably the biggest difference, but most guys are going to need equipment on par with everything else that's being shot if they intend to win much).

Motorhead · Aug 17, 2023

Make NO mistake about it ... Hunter class at 12x or now 16x still remains VERY MUCH reliant on a shooters skill set !!!!!!!!!!!!!
That of being Truly STABLE every shot ... That of having GOOD DOPE data and knowing how to apply it .... That of having some pretty decent wind reading skill .... And the ability to take on a match ONE LANE at a time applying all one knows over & over & over again w/o breaking rhythm, getting funked out when you miss and not psyched out by others, how their doing etc .. anything !!!

When you can do this the equipment one uses ( Now we're talking worthy & capable equipment ) you can score very high at any match and do so time & time again. UNDERSTAND it is YOU the Shooter against the course .. NOT other shooters !!! Do YOUR JOB as a marksman every single target and you too can be successful in the Field Target game.

beerthief · Aug 17, 2023

America , land of Glut , if it is worth doing it is worth doing to excess ! OR if we can spend more money doing something we will .
If you now own the best and know that the rifle will shoot perfect scores ,you now set your practice focus on YOU the shooter which is what you should be doing in the first place.

Sqwirl57 · Aug 17, 2023

AirGunShooter said:
That’s a misconception that won’t go away. The Hunter class originally was never meant to be a beginner class.

Exactly. PCP class was!

(Sorry I had to)

scotton · Aug 17, 2023

I was pretty sure I wouldn't do words good enough to keep this from turning into the usual "it's not the equipment, it's the shooter" argument.

Yes, it's the shooter, not the equipment. We all know this.
Yes, the best shooters use expensive equipment. We all know this as well.

Would slowing down the equipment race in hunter class help increase participation? No idea. I think it would, but I really don't know.

AirShot · Aug 17, 2023

rob_g said:
You can leave Hunter class scopes at 16X max usable magnification but eliminate the use of parallax for ranging. This would eliminate the need for higher end scopes. Shooters would be required to eyeball the target and guestimate the range. This puts a lot of the skill required back on the shooter and takes it off the equipment. 24X scopes can still be used but must be set at the 16X magnification. A simple piece of tape covers the graduations on the parallax knob

It has been quite a few years since I competed in FT, but I see things have changed, in my opinion, not for the better. Your looking to bring new folks into the game, but you price them out of the competition it seems. When I retired, hunter class was just getting started, NO range finding the targets at all and a max 12x mag. This created a real chance to get started with a second mortage. Then we found friends shooting with friends and giving out the target distance from those that were not hunter class. The discussion was just beginning to increase the mag and allow range finding. The money game was starting. Many clubs set out three targets, hunter shot the two larger and the others shot the two more difficult targets and that worked well but many clubs didn't have enough targets. There is no one fix for all, but just sitting back and observing, we are pricing new folks out of the game. I don't have the answers, but, I can say for sure, if you make it a rich mans game, you will have fewer competitors!!

AirShot · Aug 17, 2023

"It isn't the equipment, it's the shooter" argument is a false statement, been going on for years when pcp equipment became popular. I started in FT back in the mid 80's, when there was little to no equipment race. It was the shooter !!
Into the 90's it did become an equipment race and appears to be the same thing today from my reading and observations.
Been argued for years, but I can tell you for certainty, the equipment plays a really big role...really big !! Over my years of running a FT club we often had folks swap equipment to test the theroy..the better equipment won everytime, hands down!! Not complaining about good equipment, I always say buy the best you can !! But never say it is the shooter not the equipment !! Knowing your equipment plays a really big roll, so a skilked shooter is important, but having the best equipment availiable is ahead of whatever is in second place.....

isledweller · Aug 17, 2023

my 2 cents.

85 of the 120 Field Target shooters at the upcoming Pyramyd Air Cup are shooting Hunter Class.............seems like a legitimate class and not a "beginner class". Wonder what the count would be if Hunter didn't exist....

At the moment I'm shooting Hunter Piston with equipment that is outdated and unobtainable. A Walther LGU and a used Bushnell Elite 6-24x40 front objective scope. Myself and a lot of others enjoy this class and have no desire to play in the other classes.....don't think that makes us any lesser.

The equipment race is because we can.... not because it is definitely required. There have been Nationals won with Benjamin Marauders and UTG scopes and won with Thomas rifles and Sightron scopes. I know you don't want to hear it, but it's mostly the person behind the trigger, not what's in front of it, If I recall correctly, there were Steyrs used in the first Nationals in 2006 in Hunter class. Always has been the high dollar equipment since inception.

Best thing to do is get people to come to a match with whatever they have and give field target a try. Hopefully once they spend time on the lanes and knock down some targets they will continue to do so. Use what they have and hone their skills or if they decide they need the next new shiny toy, the more power to them.

Are we doing hunter class wrong?

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