Forced Kneeling

Motorhead said:

1) There should be a More difficult sub section to game played ... unlike years of social programing, not everyone is special, a winner etc .. Earn it by having a skill others have not yet mastered ... Otherwise similar to EBR it is more a LUCK game than defined skill.
2) While not agreeing .. does make the most sense

Don't shoot the messenger

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Silly me, and here I was thinking FT is to find out the best FT shooter in that position - Hunter on bucket and sticks with 16x holdover scope, Open with Girdle and dial a 50x scope, or WFTF with shooting jackets and dial a 50x scopes... Silly rabbit, FT is for offhand!

Franklink said:

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Let's not pretend ft matches are just offhand matches. You gotta do everything right 52/52 times (or similar) before the offhanders or kneelers even matter.
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I think the 52 free position shots are too easy, poor measurement of skill commonly leaving 8 shots to decide match. Wish I could make an xtreme field target match with more difficult common targets. Or reduce kill zone size to increase dificulty of free position shots making a better measure of skill.

thane said:

I think the 52 free position shots are too easy, poor measurement of skill commonly leaving 8 shots to decide match. Wish I could make an xtreme field target match with more difficult common targets. Or reduce kill zone size to increase dificulty of free position shots making a better measure of skill.

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I agree...to a certain extent.

I think ft matches should be set hard enough that perfect scores are very rare. A course in the <32 Troyer range is likely to get cleaned by at least one of the better shooters, assuming manageable winds on match day.

When setting the Southwest Airgunners course we seem to have collectively arrived at making it average more like 35 Troyer. And we've still had guys cleaning them, just not as often.

The tricky part for setting courses is making it hard enough to challenge the experienced, but not so hard that the newbies are completely demoralized. Tricky endeavor.

Centercut said:

Silly me, and here I was thinking FT is to find out the best FT shooter in that position - Hunter on bucket and sticks with 16x holdover scope, Open with Girdle and dial a 50x scope, or WFTF with shooting jackets and dial a 50x scopes... Silly rabbit, FT is for offhand!

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Without being silly, FT is (mostly) a free position game. It’s to find out the best FT shooter in what ever legal position they choose for any given target. True that each Division allows different combinations of support/shooting aids. And typical shooting positions have evolved to use all of the allowed aids. But you are still free to use or not use them as you see fit.

When I shoot in Hunter Division, I don’t use a bucket and sticks.

When I shoot in Open Division, I don’t use a harness or dial a 50x scope.

When I shoot in WFTF Division, I don’t use a shooting jacket or dial a 50x scope.

So FT is a free position game, except that current rules require a small percentage of defined/designated positions at some types of matches because…..well, I can’t really answer that.

Scotchmo said:

Without being silly, FT is (mostly) a free position game. It’s to find out the best FT shooter in what ever legal position they choose for any given target. True that each Division allows different combinations of support/shooting aids. And typical shooting positions have evolved to use all of the allowed aids. But you are still free to use or not use them as you see fit.

When I shoot Hunter I don’t use a bucket and sticks.

When I shoot Open Division, I don’t use a harness or dial a 50x scope.

When I shoot WFTF, I don’t use a shooting jacket or dial a 50x scope.

So FT is a free position game, except that current rules require a small percentage of defined/designated positions at some types of matches because…..well, I can’t really answer that.

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Scott, we're lucky to have you on the Team. Every one of us is a better shooter because of your knowledge, experience and skill. Thanks much from all of Team Centercut.

Franklink said:

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The tricky part for setting courses is making it hard enough to challenge the experienced, but not so hard that the newbies are completely demoralized. Tricky endeavor.

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A lot of venues do set the Troyer average too high for “newbies”. My solution was not tricky. When I was a match director, I would usually set a low to moderate Troyer average target difficulty, but make sure to use a high standard deviation of target difficulty. Cover the entire range of target difficulty from easy to expert.

In 10 years of match diecting and being present and overall setter of our club match targets ... In 10 years the SVFTC club matches have had the course cleaned only 1 time that i recall. There are always stinkers and mind game placements or sizes that keep EVERYONE entertained be them beginners or experienced.

It is the MD's job to find this mix that keeps the newbees interested and the experienced challenged

Motorhead said:

In 10 years of match diecting and being present and overall setter of our club match targets ... In 10 years the SVFTC club matches have had the course cleaned only 1 time that i recall. There are always stinkers and mind game placements or sizes that keep EVERYONE entertained be them beginners or experienced.

It is the MD's job to find this mix that keeps the newbees interested and the experienced challenged

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Agree.

I ran AAFTA GP match for 10 years. I probably set the positional targets easier than anyone, and usually set the average difficulty to be in the Troyer 28 to 30 range and no one ever cleaned a course. Top scores were usually in the high 80 to low 90 percentile. Even if someone had cleaned the course once in awhile, I wouldn’t worry about it.

AirNGasman said:

I’m not sure about “part of the body” and what exactly that means.

Although I'm not (quite) dumb enough to dive into the abyss of how that wording might be interpreted, having been best friends at the time with the person responsible for the rule and wording I do know the intent of the rule. You can't rest the rifle butt or fore-end directly on your open or closed hand that is planted on the ground.

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SO>>>>> if my open hand is holding the rifle and resting on my knee and my knee is attached to my leg and foot which is resting on the ground that is illegal , right ? but if i am standing and my rifle is resting on my open hand which is attached to my arm which is planted firmly in my hip ,which is attached to my leg/foot and is planted firmly on the ground that is ok ?

Scotchmo said:

Agree.

I ran AAFTA GP match for 10 years. I probably set the positional targets easier than anyone, and usually set the average difficulty to be in the Troyer 28 to 30 range and no one ever cleaned a course. Top scores were usually in the high 80 to low 90 percentile. Even if someone had cleaned the course once in awhile, I wouldn’t worry about it.

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Between a mental inventory of how many perfect scores I've witnessed in the last 4-5years and skimming of match reports that I could find, something like 6 cleaned courses.

So yes, not a frequent occurrence, but course was too easy if somebody got a perfect score. Completely my opinion. Others may feel differently, and that's okay.

Franklink said:

Between a mental inventory of how many perfect scores I've witnessed in the last 4-5years and skimming of match reports that I could find, something like 6 cleaned courses.

So yes, not a frequent occurrence, but course was too easy if somebody got a perfect score. Completely my opinion. Others may feel differently, and that's okay.

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Play the game long enough you will meet shooters who have the skills to clean a course in spades !!! But too do so takes something similar to the perfect storm
So really not a Too easy of course set ... but a great day for that person who just does it all right on that day & time ... Nothing more.

Franklink said:

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So yes, not a frequent occurrence, but course was too easy if somebody got a perfect score. …

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Maybe, or it’s just a normal statistical outcome, even if it wasn’t too easy.

A 90% average hit rate is common for some top shooters. Apply that over a 60 shot match and they have about a 1 in 500 chance of cleaning the course. Reducing the hit rate will reduce the odds, but given enough chances, there is no way to prevent it.

Well, since my post was immediately de-railed (not shocking), I'll ask this a slightly different way:
Why do we need kneeling lanes?

Note that I'm not asking if you like kneeling, or if you are good at kneeling , or if you are capable of kneeling, or if you ever saw someone who was good at kneeling, or anything to do with EFT, or anything to do with off-hand. I want you to seriously ask yourself, why do we need kneeling lanes. And then share your thoughts.

I'll start it off. I think the kneeling position mandated by AAFTA is dumb, confusing and unnatural, and I don't see the need for it I think removing it would be a benefit to new shooters and shooters with mobility issues. I think keeping it would make a very small group of shooters happy but would not really affect their scores or GP rankings.

Full disclosure, my main motivation for writing all of these dumb words is this: A match director at a recent match said that he was advocating to alter the rules for the kneeling position so that people incapable of shooting in the kneeling position would have options other than shooting off-hand. We don't need to change the rules for kneeling. That's like trying to fix a poorly designed car with dollar store duct tape. Rather than change the rules, just stop having kneeling lanes at your AAFTA matches. They aren't required, they are simply one of two options for forced position shots. 6 off-hand shots meets the forced position requirement.

I guess that leads to a follow up question: If your local matches no longer had kneeling lanes, would that alter your decision to shoot at those matches?

scotton said:

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Why do we need kneeling lanes?

… If your local matches no longer had kneeling lanes, would that alter your decision to shoot at those matches?

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We don’t need kneeling lanes (or standing for that matter).

Would not alter my decision to shoot either way (with or without kneeling/standing).

Scotchmo said:

We don’t need kneeling lanes (or standing for that matter).

Would not alter my decision to shoot either way (with or without kneeling/standing).

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You get rid of kneelers and you're going to have to make the rest of the course harder. Which is what Thane was suggesting. People griping about kneelers and offhand being the tiebreakers...so make the rest of the course harder so the kneelers (and offhand) aren't the tiebreakers. Done.

And to bolster that argument...if memory serves, Ive personally shot 4 clean scores, 3 official scores for the match, one unofficial (shot through again afterwards). Three of them were in monthly matches without forced position shots. Only one of my clean scores was in a match that contained kneelers/offhand.

I've had a whole lot of clean scores messed up by one or two misses, almost always on kneelers or offhands.

And to screw with the statistical anomoly argument that was presented.... I apparently got struck by field target lightning the day that I cleaned the same course twice, with two different guns. 48 shot match-no kneelers. Cleaned it for official score, went though again with a different gun and did the same. 96 shots taken that day and 96 targets fell. Any kneelers/offhand and it wouldn't have gone that way. Which again makes the case to either keep the forced position shots, or make the rest of the course harder.

And yes I understand that the most recent proposal was to get rid of kneelers and keep the offhand. That's all fine and dandy...but say the anti-kneelers get their way and kneelers go away. Wont take long for the guys that hate offhand realize if they gripe loud enough they maybe can get rid of those too.

Kinda funny. All I hear with this is guys lobbying to get rid of the shots they struggle with. I politely alluded to it early in the discussion, and more recently very clearly stated it....but the answer is simple....PRACTICE.

AirNGasman said:

"I'm not (quite) dumb enough to dive into the abyss of how that wording might be interpreted"... or whatever it was you just wrote!

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i was just playing around , not to be taken seriously.

Motorhead said:

In 10 years of match diecting and being present and overall setter of our club match targets ... In 10 years the SVFTC club matches have had the course cleaned only 1 time that i recall. There are always stinkers and mind game placements or sizes that keep EVERYONE entertained be them beginners or experienced.

It is the MD's job to find this mix that keeps the newbees interested and the experienced challenged

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The shooter that cleaned the course in Yolo last lane was a kneeling lane. Go figure no pressure..

Franklink said:

You get rid of kneelers and you're going to have to make the rest of the course harder. Which is what Thane was suggesting. People griping about kneelers and offhand being the tiebreakers...so make the rest of the course harder so the kneelers (and offhand) aren't the tiebreakers. Done.

And to bolster that argument...if memory serves, Ive personally shot 4 clean scores, 3 official scores for the match, one unofficial (shot through again afterwards). Three of them were in monthly matches without forced position shots. Only one of my clean scores was in a match that contained kneelers/offhand.

I've had a whole lot of clean scores messed up by one or two misses, almost always on kneelers or offhands.

And to screw with the statistical anomoly argument that was presented.... I apparently got struck by field target lightning the day that I cleaned the same course twice, with two different guns. 48 shot match-no kneelers. Cleaned it for official score, went though again with a different gun and did the same. 96 shots taken that day and 96 targets fell. Any kneelers/offhand and it wouldn't have gone that way. Which again makes the case to either keep the forced position shots, or make the rest of the course harder.

And yes I understand that the most recent proposal was to get rid of kneelers and keep the offhand. That's all fine and dandy...but say the anti-kneelers get their way and kneelers go away. Wont take long for the guys that hate offhand realize if they gripe loud enough they maybe can get rid of those too.

Kinda funny. All I hear with this is guys lobbying to get rid of the shots they struggle with. I politely alluded to it early in the discussion, and more recently very clearly stated it....but the answer is simple....PRACTICE.

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I agree, the matches that you are attending should be harder. Our ASC match last week was a 34 Troyer with no kneelers and it didn't get cleaned. Even when we used to set easier matches, I don't recall them getting cleaned by anyone. I'm not trying to diminish your shooting abilities (which are apparently awesome), but I do think that your opinion on kneelers might be affected by the difficulty of the matches you are shooting.

Part of what I'm trying to do here is separate kneeling and off-hand. Off-hand has a place in most shooting sports and field shooting. Everyone who has shot a rifle has shot off-hand at some point. Kneeling is a carry over from 3 position shooting that was jammed into field target because British people are weird. (Sorry, Brits, but you know you are.)

Lastly, there is a difference between people that don't like kneelers because they are too lazy to practice and people that are not capable of shooting in the kneeling position due to metal parts that have been introduced to their knee, back, neck or ankle. Luckily, I am capable of assuming the kneeling position and I practice it regularly (and I'm ok at it). But it still stops me down when I'm in the middle of a match, having fun shooting some pew pews with my buds, and we come to a lane that says "now you have to put your knee exactly here, your foot exactly here, don't do that with your wrist, over the dumpster, off the back board, nothing but net". Its just tiresome. Granted, with all of my practice I still have the grace of a fat lady in roller skates trying to climb stairs. I think this is the crux of my problem with kneeling. It lacks dignity. You can suck at off-hand (and I do) but at least you can shoot off-hand with dignity and flair, even if you don't hit anything. Kneeling just feels like someone somewhere is making fun of you.

scotton said:

Lastly, there is a difference between people that don't like kneelers because they are too lazy to practice and people that are not capable of shooting in the kneeling position due to metal parts that have been introduced to their knee, back, neck or ankle.

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I've heard similar arguments from people who don't like the offhand shots. "I had shoulder surgery, (ten years ago)." " I'm little and my rifle is big." "My back is fused in the lumbar region." Etc etc etc.

I can do the same about other rules about things I personally dislike, but it doesn't change the fact that those are the rules. (I should get a pass on the 65mph speed limit b/c I have a good driving record and an exception should be made for me. Or I should get to shoot my .30-06 in my backyard even though I live in city limits. Or I should get five steps instead of two after I pick up my dribble in basketball cuz I twisted my ankle 30 years ago. Or my team should get 5 downs in the football game cuz we're all little guys, and John our quarterback has a jammed finger.)

Rules are rules. There are some in all aspects of life that somebody somewhere is gonna disagree with.

As for the disability angle, everybody is working with some sort of in unique challenge in everything they do.