Not pistolas…

L.Leon said:

It’s amusing to me seeing some taking the buttstocks off of “rifles” and calling them “pistols” for field target shooting. Why not simply a “buttstockless” rifles division? Unless you can “holster” the arm it “isn’t” a pistol. Just because you take the buttstock off of a long arm, does not make it a pistol…. “Pistol field target” a sham game I will never play… A more honest approach would have Pistol Field Target reflect what a “pistol” “is” a holsterable “sidearm”. Thoughts?

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Yup, you got that right. I call them PIFLES.

L.Leon said:

It’s amusing to me seeing some taking the buttstocks off of “rifles” and calling them “pistols” for field target shooting. Why not simply a “buttstockless” rifles division? Unless you can “holster” the arm it “isn’t” a pistol. Just because you take the buttstock off of a long arm, does not make it a pistol…. “Pistol field target” a sham game I will never play… A more honest approach would have Pistol Field Target reflect what a “pistol” “is” a holsterable “sidearm”. Thoughts?

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There's rules for barrel length in p.b. handgun metallic silhouette for both production and unlimited classes. Why wouldn't there be some type of production and unlimited classes with barrel length rules in place for a.g. pistol field target competition as well?

so basically there's only a couple PCP pistols..
guns like the notos, only 11" barrel but with just the pistol grips it's 22" long.. and there's several others about the same size.. I just can't see it in a holster.. however next week hopefully my notos will be shortened down to 16" and while that's still a very long pistol, it's possible it might work in a holster..
I can't afford the huben gk1 or the evinix viper.. and well I waited too long, because I couldn't afford it on the attaman ap16 compact and now it's not available..
so next week it's getting shortened and I have a moderator baffles that will fit inside the picatinny rail shroud and will test it..
I do wish I could get the air tube shortened to make the gun 12" overall but I'm not comfortable myself machining the air tube because of it's working pressure and no way to test it.
maybe someday I will find someone who will do the air tube..
but the notos actually comes with a stock.. now I'm sure someone likes it, but for me it's either a pistol or rifle.. I honestly don't have any use for a pistol with a stock, id rather a rifle with the longer barrel than a pistol with a stock..
I've never actually shot the notos with the stock, I can't get my eye down low enough to see the sights.. so I have only shot it as a pistol and it is too long for freehand shooting.. you have to rest the air tube on something..
here's to hoping that next week it will be closer to a pistol.. I bought it before much information was out on it and assumed that the moderator would unscrew like the Diana bandit, just locktite holding it.. but no it's molded on the barrel.
does anyone know of other PCP pistol that are actually pistol size 12" or less?
mark

The only people that seem to worry about this stuff are those that don't actually compete. FT pistol is just a name and it's not very popular as it is. Most of the GP events don't hold pistol matches. The guys that shoot it are already rifle FT shooters and it's just something to do on the off day. The rules were made and the competitors follow the rules. There is no lack of honor in abiding by the set rules of a game.

A long time ago I remember somebody at one of the nationals deciding to shoot a red dot standard type pistol to make a point. The point he ended up making was that the course better be limited to full size kill zones and less than 10y or so if he was gonna knock much over.

If someone wants to set up ft pistol matches that only allow holsterable real pistols to compete with ...they should give it a go. Be prepared to have a couple guys show up for the first match...and less than that for the matches thereafter.

Mike

L.Leon said:

The point ”is” unless you could practically holster it? It isn’t a pistol…

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I'm not a fan of the over sized rifle conversions for practical use. But in all fairness... most air pistols aren't very compact at all to begin with. Just my observation.

To answer ALL the questions, confusions and criticisms FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME ON THIS FORUM,

While I had the most to do with Pistol FT rules as we now know them, I agree with you about what constitutes a pistol. Unfortunately I was only one of a Pistol Rules Committee of FIVE; so the rules we have are compromises between my (and your) wants versus those that lobbied for rifles with a pistol grip (and grip attachments amounting to a shoulder stock). Point is, it could be worse; and would have been had I not fought tooth and nail for some semblance of PISTOL in pistol FT rules.

Here are a couple more palatable examples of air pistols that would conform to what I lobbied for-

Hey, nothing stopping anyone from starting a new air PISTOL FT competition to suit their desires. I've started two, and about to launch a third.

Airgun-hobbyist said:

There's rules for barrel length in p.b. handgun metallic silhouette for both production and unlimited classes. Why wouldn't there be some type of production and unlimited classes with barrel length rules in place for a.g. pistol field target competition as well?

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Since I founded Pistol Field Target I've made it known all it takes is three shooters to recognize a class; be that an existing class, or new class. That still stands, as it has since Pistol FT was born.

We started with two PFT classes, one of which has since gone virtually extinct. PFT now having been around for a while, as it's biggest promoter and driver I've also driven evolution of Troyer difficulties of the targets and courses to more challenging/demanding, to keep pace with the evolution of PFT shooters' equipment, techniques and skills.

The point of that last paragraph is even if we now got enough takers for a new, more PISTOLesque class, their scores on today's courses would reflect the evolved, more challenging shot difficulties. Not to suggest they couldn't have fun and/or compete for their own class awards (given at least three entrants).

The point of that last paragraph is, the onus is on those wishing for such a competition. Put your money (entry fees) where your mouths are. By the way, I'm all for it!

Yes, I DO have all the answers.

.

Honestly I just sit back and giggle ... Being as Mike N has eluded too, pretty much Only those of us already shooting FT Rifles play within the FT Pistol game as well.
Along with my observation of generally seeing those speaking out in forum protests to what is a pistol seldom or never SHOOT Field Target

And lets add this bit of FYI ... If pistol FT was easy, most FT rifle shooters would take up the PFT challenge ... Most Don't

AirNGasman said:

Since I founded Pistol Field Target I've made it known all it takes is three shooters to recognize a class; be that an existing class, or new class. That still stands, as it has since Pistol FT was born.

We started with two PFT classes, one of which has since gone virtually extinct. PFT now having been around for a while, as it's biggest promoter and driver I've also driven evolution of Troyer difficulties of the targets and courses to more challenging/demanding, to keep pace with the evolution of PFT shooters' equipment, techniques and skills.

The point of that last paragraph is even if we now got enough takers for a new, more PISTOLesque class, their scores on today's courses would reflect the evolved, more challenging shot difficulties. Not to suggest they couldn't have fun and/or compete for their own class awards (given at least three entrants).

The point of that last paragraph is, the onus is on those wishing for such a competition. Put your money (entry fees) where your mouths are. By the way, I'm all for it!

Yes, I DO have all the answers.

.

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Make no mistakes, I am not a current field target competitor, nor do I criticize the rules. I was simply inquiring, and in relation to other rules regarding pistol shooting sports. That being said, I would compete and would put my own money down in entry fees to support the cause with my new pistola; but I definitely need to find an appropriate scope to kit it with first.

AirNGasman said:

Since I founded Pistol Field Target I've made it known all it takes is three shooters to recognize a class; be that an existing class, or new class. That still stands, as it has since Pistol FT was born.

We started with two PFT classes, one of which has since gone virtually extinct. PFT now having been around for a while, as it's biggest promoter and driver I've also driven evolution of Troyer difficulties of the targets and courses to more challenging/demanding, to keep pace with the evolution of PFT shooters' equipment, techniques and skills.

The point of that last paragraph is even if we now got enough takers for a new, more PISTOLesque class, their scores on today's courses would reflect the evolved, more challenging shot difficulties. Not to suggest they couldn't have fun and/or compete for their own class awards (given at least three entrants).

The point of that last paragraph is, the onus is on those wishing for such a competition. Put your money (entry fees) where your mouths are. By the way, I'm all for it!

Yes, I DO have all the answers.

.

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I agree with you on competition, however for those of us who do it just for fun.. there's a big gap in what is available to buy.. at a affordable price.. I have nothing against anyone, I haven't yet shot a FX, out of my budget but it is great for those who can afford them..
I just wish we could have some more affordable pistol that fits in a holster..
I see nothing wrong with anyone making a competition for any classe of guns..
please since you have all the answers can you put up links for holstered pistols that are affordable.. id love to have a huben gk1, but that would take a couple years of my budget skipping necessities to buy..

but I totally don't have anything against the rules for the competition, I just wish manufacturers would make some of the things that others want..
possibly there's not enough of us to make it worth it, possibly everyone is settling for CO2.. I don't have the answers.. but I do think that this is why we didn't get the notos for around a year.. was supposed to come out as either a pistol or carbine.. it came out as the latter.. and pistol grip was a option.. now I have in the past shot TC pistol with a match barrel and it was good but it was long and had to be rested..
Mark

"can you put up links for holstered pistols that are affordable".

Regardless whether you're asking for FT-capable or something else, although I won't post links, I can make recommendations you can research for yourself. Assuming you mean FT-capable (per this thread) and shoulder holsters (as I do), I've recommended the Crosman 1720T as the ONLY serious choice in an FT pistols under $1000 so many times I've sold Crosman at least a dozen of them. So naturally, they discontinued it! $500.

Another viable, but not as good choice for AAFTA style PFT is the SPA/Artemis PP700 for $300. Or a Notos pistol, essentially the same as an Artemis PP750. All those Chinese PCP pistols costing about 60% that of the 1720T, they are also about 60% as capable for FT.

For Extreme Pistol FT, the .22 equivalent of Crosman's 1720T is, of course, called the BENJAMIN Marauder. Both the 1720T and Marauder are $500 propositions.

Those are your FT choices for more reasonable budgets. Assuming skills and interest enough in pistol FT competition(s) to overcome competition anxiety, those choices should get you started well enough to justify more substantial "investments".

FWIW, my AAFTA FT pistol is something I cobbled together from a Co2 rifle that originally sold for $21.95. No, I didn't slip a digit...

Or TWO!



It's competitive with anything, at any price.

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

.

I really enjoy shooting Pistol FT on the Friday before a GP. Gets me in the mood for the big match. I find pistol FT relaxing.

AirNGasman said:

Hey, nothing stopping anyone from starting a new air PISTOL FT competition to suit their desires. I've started two, and about to launch a third.

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It would be real interesting to see a compact pistol competition. Would be a real challenge for anyone wanting to build/tune/shoot. No idea if it would be popular or not. I reckon that the more strict the rules are, the less likely people are to sign up?

markhooper said:

I agree with you on competition, however for those of us who do it just for fun.. there's a big gap in what is available to buy.. at a affordable price.. I have nothing against anyone, I haven't yet shot a FX, out of my budget but it is great for those who can afford them..
I just wish we could have some more affordable pistol that fits in a holster..
I see nothing wrong with anyone making a competition for any classe of guns..
please since you have all the answers can you put up links for holstered pistols that are affordable.. id love to have a huben gk1, but that would take a couple years of my budget skipping necessities to buy..

but I totally don't have anything against the rules for the competition, I just wish manufacturers would make some of the things that others want..
possibly there's not enough of us to make it worth it, possibly everyone is settling for CO2.. I don't have the answers.. but I do think that this is why we didn't get the notos for around a year.. was supposed to come out as either a pistol or carbine.. it came out as the latter.. and pistol grip was a option.. now I have in the past shot TC pistol with a match barrel and it was good but it was long and had to be rested..
Mark

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Just a fyi. The FX pistol looks small in photos. I was shocked when mine showed up in the mail. It's rather large. I should have been known. It, like many other air pistols, is just a cut down rifle with a pistol grip.

Here is is with my 1322 that is a little over 15.25" OAL, the FX is longer. And the Crosman has probably tripple the air, and an integrated baffle stack.



The pp800 strikes me as VERY holsterable. Tend to have VERY accurate barrels. But the trigger is essentialy the same as the pp750/notos. Can clean them up to maybe 7.5/10, but definitely not what I would want to be competitive in anything.

Cloud9AG said:

I really enjoy shooting Pistol FT on the Friday before a GP. Gets me in the mood for the big match. I find pistol FT relaxing.
View attachment 427275

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I think you are doing it wrong. It's not supposed to be relaxing, it's supposed to be irritating and bewildering.

AirNGasman said:

"can you put up links for holstered pistols that are affordable".

Regardless whether you're asking for FT-capable or something else, although I won't post links, I can make recommendations you can research for yourself. Assuming you mean FT-capable (per this thread) and shoulder holsters (as I do), I've recommended the Crosman 1720T as the ONLY serious choice in an FT pistols under $1000 so many times I've sold Crosman at least a dozen of them. So naturally, they discontinued it! $500.

Another viable, but not as good choice for AAFTA style PFT is the SPA/Artemis PP700 for $300. Or a Notos pistol, essentially the same as an Artemis PP750. All those Chinese PCP pistols costing about 60% that of the 1720T, they are also about 60% as capable for FT.

For Extreme Pistol FT, the .22 equivalent of Crosman's 1720T is, of course, called the BENJAMIN Marauder. Both the 1720T and Marauder are $500 propositions.

Those are your FT choices for more reasonable budgets. Assuming skills and interest enough in pistol FT competition(s) to overcome competition anxiety, those choices should get you started well enough to justify more substantial "investments".

FWIW, my AAFTA FT pistol is something I cobbled together from a Co2 rifle that originally sold for $21.95. No, I didn't slip a digit...

Or TWO!

View attachment 427247

It's competitive with anything, at any price.

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

.

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the pp750 is pretty much the same gun as the notos, I got the notos because it has the cocking lever on the left side and that's better than reaching over to cock since I am right handed.. I think the pp750 out of the box is better than the notos, just because it doesn't have a extra 6" of moderator permanently attached to the barrel and hopefully this week my notos will change as far as the moderator, will be inside the shroud so that will make it 16" overall.. fortunately I have machine tools in my garage but not a lot of time.. hopefully that will change.
I don't compete, just shoot for fun when I get the chance.. but another reason for wanting a compact pistol is for timber rattlesnake.. I shot many years ago when I was younger with a Webley tempest.. was a good gun but didn't have the accuracy I wanted, so I sold it and got the Beeman P1.. much larger and heavier, especially in a holster but it was so much fun shooting empty 22 brass off the fence rail at 10 meters.. I started with empty shotgun shells and then went to the 22 brass.. but I wished I would have kept the tempest because it was great in a holster.. I can't use either anymore if I still had them, carpal tunnel makes it hard to even load 22 notos magazine.. that's a big advantage of the attaman since it is not spring loaded magazine..
you have no idea how many times I have kicked myself for not getting the attaman ap16 compact pistol when it was on clearance and going out..

of course they would have discontinued the good crossman, and also the good price.. progress I guess.
I never got a chance to shoot formal competition but friends on the range.. id shoot my target pistols and never bothered me, and I usually out shot them with pistol when they were using rifle..
my favorite are cowboy guns, but I don't enjoy the noise anymore so it's my major interest in getting back to doing things with air that I used to do with powder..
thank you for your suggestions.. I honestly think it has been a great conversation with you and your very helpful.. I appreciate it so much more than a disagreement..
thank you
Mark

Long_Gun_Dallas said:

It would be real interesting to see a compact pistol competition. Would be a real challenge for anyone wanting to build/tune/shoot. No idea if it would be popular or not. I reckon that the more strict the rules are, the less likely people are to sign up?

Just a fyi. The FX pistol looks small in photos. I was shocked when mine showed up in the main. I shouldnt have been knowing it, like many other air pistols, is just a cut down rifle with a pistol grip.

Here is is with my 1322 that is a little over 15.25" OAL, the FX is longer. And the Crosman has probably tripple the air, and an integrated baffle stack.

View attachment 427285

The pp800 strikes me as VERY holsterable. Tend to have VERY accurate barrels. But the trigger is essentialy the same as the pp750/notos. Can clean them up to maybe 7.5/10, but definitely not what I would want to be competitive in anything.

View attachment 427286

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thanks Dallas for the pictures.. I have a hard time not drooling over some of the guns..
I have read about the pp700&750 but not the 800.. does it have a magazine?
thanks again for the pictures.. hopefully I'll be sending you a few soon
mark

markhooper said:

thanks Dallas for the pictures.. I have a hard time not drooling over some of the guns..
I have read about the pp700&750 but not the 800.. does it have a magazine?
thanks again for the pictures.. hopefully I'll be sending you a few soon
mark

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back in the day I wouldn't have hesitated to shoot competition with the Beeman P1.. I actually was looking at it again and decided why bother, was a great gun but I couldn't get a 177 pellet in the barrel.. I likely could drop it anywhere else . also I don't remember back 25 years ago that it had 2 power levels.. maybe something new?
took my Ruger target with me years ago to conceal carry class, and my instructor couldn't believe a one hole group of three shots.. barely even a triangle.. but I doubt I am as good now.. back years ago I used to go through a lot of tins of pellets and bricks of 22 just having fun..