AEA Challenger Elite.457 Head Aches

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BriarpatchMtn

BriarpatchMtn

Member
Jul 28, 2024
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New to pcps and here, but lurking a while trying to learn. But this gun has had a steep learning curve.
Got the Challenger Elite .457 about 4 months back, because externally regulated and didn't want to deal a shot bell curve with my 1st pcp.
But it's been a head ache.
First blew o-ring in regulator core, reg kept resetting itself lower after few series of shots and I kept trying to reset where I had it. So eventually turned out to far. Only 2nd day out with gun, boy was I sick.
New reg core, same resetting itself lower issue. This time lowered tank psi, turned reg down, then refilled and readjusted reg. But problem continued.
Afraid to take apart gun at first, eventually removed pressure tank to find it was loaded full of oil. I've always used dual filters with my compressor so not from that. Dealer's tech said he'd also seen a few like that from factory.
Cleaned tank and reg, got to finally work properly 2 weeks ago.
Started with MrHP's slugs but had large deviations across shot string on chronograph. Slugged bore, was .457, resulting in his barely engaging lands. Groove's were .461ish. So got myself for setup casting .460, more $. Experimented sizing .458, .459, and powder coating. Best results just .460 as cast. And absolutely hates powder coated slugs.
Next, last weekend, suddenly started what I thought was valve bouncing, by double firing randomly. Tech support gave possibilities, and sending another spring, not arrived yet.
Less afraid now, took apart gun this morning and found valve pin was hanging up in it's o-ring. Fortunately had already bought the o-ring kit for gun. Replaced o-ring (#42 in gun diagram) and valve pin moved smoothly. 50+ rounds today FINALLY not a single issue.
Also had a older scope go out during all this. But life time warranties aren't any good after the company goes out of business. New scope arrived yesterday but haven't mounted. Today was simply testing and shooting thru chrono.
Now agree with countless post throughout forum, AEA is for those who don't mind working on their gun.
But even fighting the regulator issue, and before scope gave out it can be a tack driver. At 50 yrds I've had 3 and 4 same hole and the other nealy touching those.
 
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sonnysan said:
What mold are you using? Could it be this?

nightgalaxy.com

Lee - Mold Sc 459-405hb - 90268

Brand: Lee Precision
nightgalaxy.com nightgalaxy.com

View attachment 483709
Click to expand...
I'm using a NEO mold. My gun likes these. Drops exactly .460 and with pure lead deep hollow point is around 288 grain for me.
Doesn't fit magazine by just a few 10th of an inch, so not excessively long.

20240729_051326.jpg
 
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BriarpatchMtn said:
I'm using a NEO mold. My gun likes these. Drops exactly .460 and with pure lead deep hollow point is around 288 grain for me.
Doesn't fit magazine by just a few 10th of an inch, so not excessively long.

View attachment 483734
Click to expand...
That's the mold I use to cast bullets for my Texan
20190529_155515.jpg
 
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Man what a bummer. Had similar issues with my challenger elite 51 barrel which caused months of struggle and confusion. Thankfully I haven't had any other issues after making a custom barrel for it.

Just a side note... if you slugged your barrel by measuring the boolit, the barrel is probably 0.0005" to 0.001" bigger than the measurement taken from the boolit. I have a set of inside micrometers that allow me to measure the barrel directly, and on barrels that measure (for example) .358 in the grooves, the slug will measure .357 to .3575.

If AEA is going to continue with the errors... and we know they will... it would be nice if they'd error on the smaller side. Much easier to size down than to build a custom boolit factory.
 
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caliusoptimus said:
Man what a bummer. Had similar issues with my challenger elite 51 barrel which caused months of struggle and confusion. Thankfully I haven't had any other issues after making a custom barrel for it.

Just a side note... if you slugged your barrel by measuring the boolit, the barrel is probably 0.0005" to 0.001" bigger than the measurement taken from the boolit. I have a set of inside micrometers that allow me to measure the barrel directly, and on barrels that measure (for example) .358 in the grooves, the slug will measure .357 to .3575.

If AEA is going to continue with the errors... and we know they will... it would be nice if they'd error on the smaller side. Much easier to size down than to build a custom boolit factory.
Click to expand...
I believe it was your post I read on the barrel sizing issue. One reason I went with .457. The NOE .460 mold drops just the right slugs for it, at least for mine. Sizing down the fps deviations go up and accuracy goes down. Ready to get the new scope on so can get to real tuning now that everything's working properly. Of course it supposed to rain all this coming weekend. Gurrrr
 
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My thoughts are regulating these big bores is pointless. They are designed for straight up big game hunting not range time shooters. 2-3 good shots. Is what it is. The AEA big bores in a lot of videos I’ve seen that are regulated just often don’t act like it. Very diminishing returns. Anyone who wonders about AEA just go to YouTube and check out macabespeed channel. Watch all his aea vids. The best barometer out there in determining wether to mess with this brand.
 
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Pointless to debate, we each chose our guns for our own reasons and purposes.
Beginning new to pcp's simply wanted to share my experience with my gun for others new to them.
The measurable oil in pressure tank fouling up the external regulator wasn't an issue I'd ever seen discussed before. Would have helped me if I had. And I would have found it sooner if I hadn't been afraid of taking a new gun apart that I was totally unfamiliar with.
Now I've learned they're fairly simple to work on so addressing issues and fine tuning will just be another part of the fun.
The valve pin hanging up was simply wear from 500+ rounds trying to figure out regulator issue. Easy to replace and I'll surely be replacing again at some point. Know I'll put another 500+ thru it just tweaking and fine tuning before ever hunting.
 
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BriarpatchMtn said:
Glad if anything I say helps. When I get the new scope on and get to dialing everything in I'll post more. But have already seen these can be same hole accurate. But I do agree with alot of other post I've read, it's AEA you can get lucky out of the box or get something that needs some work.
Click to expand...
Keep the updates coming!
 
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Hello I have the AEA ELEMENT MAX .45. I have an issue where I dump about 2200 psi on first shot. After disassembly and looking saw that the valve pin was sticking in the end cap. (See image} Is this the oring you speak of ? Suspected the oring was defective but BINTAC sad it was the spring got weak. I also am waiting for the new spring to arrive. Do you know the size for the oring in the end cap ? Thank you for any info.

AEA VALVE CAP.jpg
 
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Seems the elites may have basically the same barrels as the original challenger bullpups. I had a swage die made that produces .460 slugs as well. One time when I tested light weight ones, it did seem like the .460s were doing on average 30 FPS more than the .457s, but subsequent tests have made me question if it makes much difference. Accuracy is pretty much the same for both. One of these days I am gonna polish the barrel and see if that helps. It didn't make my huben k1s any more accurate, but it did help with velocity consistency

I was going to get a challenger elite, had one pre-ordered before they came out. Then while I was waiting they came out with the power valve upgrade for the originals, I couldn't say no to 700 FPE with heavy stuff and 575 with light. I wish I could have some of the other upgrades though like the lighter trigger, nicer and lighter stock and the barrel with muzzle brake. Hope the rifle works out for you.

My sear broke and I had a replacement made from hardened tool steel and since then it has worked well, I consider myself lucky but as a general rule I stay away from AEA especially the semi autos. Only reason I got the challenger was I liked the idea of a 6 shot magazine on a big bore. Only others that have that or more are the AAA slayer or the recent rattler, both in the $3000 range
 
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rdpjr6504 said:
Hello I have the AEA ELEMENT MAX .45. I have an issue where I dump about 2200 psi on first shot. After disassembly and looking saw that the valve pin was sticking in the end cap. (See image} Is this the oring you speak of ? Suspected the oring was defective but BINTAC sad it was the spring got weak. I also am waiting for the new spring to arrive. Do you know the size for the oring in the end cap ? Thank you for any info.

View attachment 483979
Click to expand...
rdpjr6504 said:
Hello I have the AEA ELEMENT MAX .45. I have an issue where I dump about 2200 psi on first shot. After disassembly and looking saw that the valve pin was sticking in the end cap. (See image} Is this the oring you speak of ? Suspected the oring was defective but BINTAC sad it was the spring got weak. I also am waiting for the new spring to arrive. Do you know the size for the oring in the end cap ? Thank you for any info.

View attachment 483979
Click to expand...
Not familiar with the Element Max. New to pcp's myself and only have a Challenger Elite.
The o-ring placement does seem similar, as the valve pin slides within it when firing. (Should have taken a pic of mine.) With mine, in addition to the valve pin sticking and not moving freely, it was obvious that the o-ring's surface was worn and flat. But as I said I'd also put well over 500 rounds thru my gun. Where there's movement between 2 surfaces there's friction, thus there's going to be wear.
I had also noticed that my gun was leaking down when stored. But I was attributing leaking pressure gauges because I'd been degassing so often trying to figure out my regulator issue.
Since I already had the full gun o-ring kit I replaced it. Immediately stopped dumping air/double firing, and the l air lose. Tech also suspected a weak spring and sent free one which arrived today.
As for your o-ring size mostly likely it's Element Max/gun specific. Just checked Fox Airpower has full o-ring kits for the Element Max's $42. And you can most likely get just the specific o-ring if identified on the gun's diagram. I'm ordering more of mine from them along with some other spare parts.
 
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rdpjr6504 said:
Still waiting for replacement spring but thank you for info on seal kit. I will order one and see if it stops the air dump. Thank you
Click to expand...
Might you (anyone else?) have a picture of said oring maybe with the valve stem installed?

Haven't seen an AEA but have read all the threads ( a value for a smith type but) and there is certainly nothing new in any of the designs compaired to years gone by.

If I understand it used an oring in the rear outside where the valve stem protrudes to be struck by the hammer. Right? If so I've seen similar designs. The oring gets hit by pressure and then seals allowing the valve stem to slide through. An improvment would be tighter tolerence which can be done (often) by finding the correct brass tube -hobby shop stock sthuff/parts- which fits around the vale stem fairly tight but does (with parts well polished) to move pertty freely. Drill valve to fit O.D. of tube and be happy without wearing anything for 1,000's of shots. This is what one might do to use a marauder valve stem in a discovery.
As I've not seen the AEA valve body & stem, in the rear an oring is used and is held in place via a threaded brass nut (hole in center) you you would want it leaving enough free space that as air escapes the hole in valve body the oring slides toward the rear of it's retainer until enough psi to really seal.

Pics? Might just need one (used) if I could figure a bit more about them & the common issues.

Cant see how a weak return spring -or is that the hammer sping?- would cause a leak if the sealing oring Is on the outside rear as many many airguns work just fine with no return spring.

Thanks


John
 
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John spysir Blount said:
Might you (anyone else?) have a picture of said oring maybe with the valve stem installed?

Haven't seen an AEA but have read all the threads ( a value for a smith type but) and there is certainly nothing new in any of the designs compaired to years gone by.

If I understand it used an oring in the rear outside where the valve stem protrudes to be struck by the hammer. Right? If so I've seen similar designs. The oring gets hit by pressure and then seals allowing the valve stem to slide through. An improvment would be tighter tolerence which can be done (often) by finding the correct brass tube -hobby shop stock sthuff/parts- which fits around the vale stem fairly tight but does (with parts well polished) to move pertty freely. Drill valve to fit O.D. of tube and be happy without wearing anything for 1,000's of shots. This is what one might do to use a marauder valve stem in a discovery.
As I've not seen the AEA valve body & stem, in the rear an oring is used and is held in place via a threaded brass nut (hole in center) you you would want it leaving enough free space that as air escapes the hole in valve body the oring slides toward the rear of it's retainer until enough psi to really seal.

Pics? Might just need one (used) if I could figure a bit more about them & the common issues.

Cant see how a weak return spring -or is that the hammer sping?- would cause a leak if the sealing oring Is on the outside rear as many many airguns work just fine with no return spring.

Thanks


John
Click to expand...
Here some pics of valve pin assembly and o-ring I was speaking of wearing on the Challenger Elite. Also of worn o-ring I replaced. I would consider a service interval to keep lubricanted, but have to disassemble whole gun to do so. Would require going back over tuning and zeroing scope everytime. Got more of these o-rings on the way. Simpler to just replace on as need bases.

20240731_165854.jpg


20240731_170002.jpg


20240731_170046.jpg


20240731_170931.jpg
 
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The ELEMENT MAX .457 has a similar style valve (sorry no images but after get spring with take and upload images.) The pistol style lever hits the valve pin to open the valve. The only thing to close the valve is a heavy spring inside the end cap that pushes the valve pin closed. I think the o ring inside the end cap that the valve head rides on to seal -like the one you imaged- is flattened and hard to the point it binds the valve pin and will not allow spring to push the pin closed. I lightly sanded end of valve pin that rides inside end cap and put a 1/8 inch shim behind spring lubed it up and now it only uses 400-500 psi on all shots. Once I get new spring I will replace it and o ring- clean inside of end cap and lube everything so it moves easily. Hopefully that will fix it.
 
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