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Resources The shoulder / Butt question

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cavedweller

cavedweller

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Dec 5, 2018
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In HFT we have rules... yeah i know they suck.... but rules are rules

so

In HFT hooks are generally not allowed but it also comes down to HOW MUCH of a hook we have

Taking this to the logical step in rules

how much angular extension is LEGAL in HFT?

I see no definitive measurements or angles listed by BOG anywhere in the AAFTA rules

so

Match directors are allowed to use their discretion which of course can b subjective and thus vary.

how much length is allowed from the vertical portion of the BUTT
and
How much (measured with a protractor) angle of projection = horizontal extension is allowed.

Whew?
 
beerthief said:
never used a hook type stock butt , looks uncomfortable and wouldn't it depend on what shirt / jacket / coat / nude , ,you were wearing ?
Click to expand...
yes and no.... it is more of what creates the most consistent interface at the shoulder and eyebox for the shooter. Example is a large right angle brace at the top of the Butt/shoulder interface would allow the rearward weight of the gun to literally rest on the shoulder and require less strength to hold it in that forced position ( i would still suck at standers and kneelers ).
 
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cavedweller said:
yes and no.... it is more of what creates the most consistent interface at the shoulder and eyebox for the shooter. Example is a large right angle brace at the top of the Butt/shoulder interface would allow the rearward weight of the gun to literally rest on the shoulder and require less strength to hold it in that forced position ( i would still suck at standers and kneelers ).
Click to expand...
SO like the Olympic pistol rule "you cannot have any portion of the hand grip extend onto the wrist " SO wouldn't the same idea apply ?
 
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I don't shoot competition so I'm completely out of my league. But...

When I learned to shoot a rifle my father took the butt plate off my rimfire, drilled a little hole and put a thumbtack behind it. He ground it off until it stuck out 1/8" or so. It hurt a little. Just enough.

In a few weeks I had "the spot" down pat. I knew when the butt was where it should be. There was a dot on the buttplate that matched a dot in my shoulder. The dot soon burned itself into my brain and there it stayed for decades.

Every time I raised a rifle I was concious of the butt placement. Somewhere along the way I forgot that lesson and my shoulder did too.

When I picked up an air rifle I realized this element was missing in my offhand form. I try to focus on butt placement as an element of my routine of mounting the rifle.

After many shots I often get sloppy with form overall. They start going into the weeds and I have to back up and get my basics right. A string of great hits is usually broken by focusing on pride rather than shooting form.

A nub on the buttplate may help me to channel some discipline in my form as well as locate the rifle in the same spot on my shoulder. My father believed in pain as the best teacher and he used a thumbtack. But the same technique could be used in a much less pointed way to improve butt placement.
 
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For those unfamiliar....for AAFTA, butthooks are allowed in Open and WFTF, but not in Hunter.

I'm with you Rudy, I've not seen any sort of specs for what defines a butthooks in the AAFTA rulebooks. The only place I've seen a group try to specify what makes a butthook is Ron at the Textreme Extreme FT matches ( so NOT sub20 AAFTA-style matches 😁).

Personally, I've found the armpit section of a butthook to help for offhand when shooting Open, but not for shooting Open style from a bumbag. So much of the gun is supported by my knee riser that there's no tendency for the front of the gun to want to drop like it does when shooting offhand.

For Hunter class Ive found a small nub or curved buttpad to help keep the gun from dropping off the shoulder, for sitting, standing, and kneeling shots.
Something like this, or this,
Screenshot_20240812-082328.png

Screenshot_20240812-090047.png



Either of those are currently Hunter-allowed in AAFTA rulebooks, as fast as I know.


Now, for the true butt-hooks that extend for 6+inches above and/or under the shoulder I have no personal experience. I do, however, feel that a match director would step in if somebody was trying to shoot Hunter with one of those. I've watched the WFTF crowd use them, many from a dead man position. As Mike pointed out above, dead man doesn't put the buttpad area of the gun against the shoulder so the WFT-Fers that use the big butt hooks are using the bottom section as a thigh rest. And thigh rests are, interestingly enough, illegal in WFTF. Supposedly it's all about the attachment point (location) to the gun. I carefully questioned a WFTF friend at a match and he said it's WFTF legal to use a butthook as a thigh rest, but not to use a thigh rest as a thigh rest. 🤨


I think it's only a matter of time before the BOG needs to address what is and isn't a butthook. I see more and more butt hook-ish modifications to guns in Hunter class. More of a slow drift to butthooks versus buttpads. From personal experience, I can attest to having something on the buttpad area to keep the gun from dropping out of the shoulder pocket helps immensely when shooting from a stool and using shooting sticks.
 
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Tho will add .... We as shooters all differ in our physic, some are thin and more bony, some more well padded on there shoulder areas.
How do you sit when addressing targets ? One who is on the shoulder will differ greatly from a deadman or lap shooter. So let look at it in this regard.
A mechanical ( Metal ) butt assembly can be very uncomfortable outside perhaps a very narrow miens / position of how angled & set up.
For competitive shooters we need to find a self serving average of what works best. Our seated positions make up the bulk of our shots, Offhand and Kneelers being the most difficult. Where does one place having most advantage or comfort ? What is one willing to sacrifice for another ?

So ask yourself this ... Does a mechanical butt plate offer GREATER or WORSE advantage Overall to a more conventional butt pad ?
 
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Centercut said:
Not a butt hook question but fits in as a shooting aid standing in AAFTA Hunter Class.
How about a shooting bag between upper left arm and torso that seems to be gaining popularity these days? Standing in Hunter Class...
Click to expand...
That would seem a not legal aid being similar to the advantage one might have using a hamster in hunter which also could allow ones elbow to find ones ribs or hip :unsure:

I know I would frown and question such a practice if seen during a GP event, club matches could care less ;)
 
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The issue is terminology. US is using the term butt hook wrong and always has.
Isn't this a butt hook? An adjustable butt pad with a hook that slides on and off.

1723491640223.png


Its an add on piece thats flat with a hook on the end. Its not the adjustable butt pad/plate that we all see and use today.
No there is no definition in HFT as well...there is already a definition so why spell it out again?
Maybe your asking for a definition or limit on an adjustable butt pad?
Butt hooks are not allowed in UK HFT either, and they allow adjustable butt pads. They state 2.25" paddle length but don't say per paddle or overall so there's that. They do not give a definition of a butt hook because there doesn't need to be one as its already established what it is.
Thats my understanding and take on it.

Maybe I'm off base but after reading up many times on this, thats what Ive found.
Seems as though MD's personal opinions trump rules anyway and they set their own standards. Ive talked with several and they each have their own ideas. Not sure hwy when it seems straight forward to me. As of now there is no limit of number or size of paddles or orientation of said paddles in HFT for USA.
I'm sure enough abuse and complaining may spark a definition or rule change eventually but why?
 
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If a hook is considered common sense and well defined, is this a hook or not a hook? Is the top part of this butt plate a hook? Is the bottom part a hook?

1723495823302.png



I know the image above would not pass the ISSF equipment test for a standard rifle (i.e. 10m air rifle) because the ISSF defines a maximum depth of curve of 20mm for an air rifle butt plate.

The next possible gun configuration is the 50m free rifle, which has a definition of a hook. So what is the definition of "hook" that we should all follow?

1723496663799.png


Seems like their needs to be some clarification regarding this rule since there are people questioning what should be considered a legal butt plate for AAFTA Hunter, a butt plate that is not allowed to have a hook. If we follow ISSF rules, the picture of the 3d printed butt plate does not pass the 50m free rifle allowances at least due to the top part of the butt plate.

I would personally claim the 3d printed butt plate example to not fit within the rules of the hunter class, but there is an entire forum thread that argued about this earlier this year trying to make up parts of the butt plate assembly to circumvent what might be the spirit of the rules. Stuff like "that's not a hook, those are wings", or "the top part is a hanger" and since there is no limit on hangers you can do whatever you want.

I would lean toward defining the butt plate limitation in a way similar to what ISSF states as a standard rifle. Maybe 20mm is too shallow of a depth of curve for AAFTA Hunter, but something along that type of definition would make a measurable and objective rule rather than a subjective rule depending on what a MD thinks is a hook.

In my opinion, the hunter class rifle should resemble what other sports call a standard rifle, however that is not explicitly stated in the AAFTA rules. The rules simply state no butt hooks.

For reference, this is the current AAFTA Hunter rule (Hunter division rules, section "Shooting" part B, page 9 of the 2024 AAFTA rules) - there is no definition declaring what is a hook, or a hanger, or whatever else you might want to call it.

1723497590730.png
 
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Franklink said:
For those unfamiliar....for AAFTA, butthooks are allowed in Open and WFTF, but not in Hunter.

I'm with you Rudy, I've not seen any sort of specs for what defines a butthooks in the AAFTA rulebooks. The only place I've seen a group try to specify what makes a butthook is Ron at the Textreme Extreme FT matches ( so NOT sub20 AAFTA-style matches 😁).

Personally, I've found the armpit section of a butthook to help for offhand when shooting Open, but not for shooting Open style from a bumbag. So much of the gun is supported by my knee riser that there's no tendency for the front of the gun to want to drop like it does when shooting offhand.

For Hunter class Ive found a small nub or curved buttpad to help keep the gun from dropping off the shoulder, for sitting, standing, and kneeling shots.
Something like this, or this,
View attachment 487830
View attachment 487832


Either of those are currently Hunter-allowed in AAFTA rulebooks, as fast as I know.


Now, for the true butt-hooks that extend for 6+inches above and/or under the shoulder I have no personal experience. I do, however, feel that a match director would step in if somebody was trying to shoot Hunter with one of those. I've watched the WFTF crowd use them, many from a dead man position. As Mike pointed out above, dead man doesn't put the buttpad area of the gun against the shoulder so the WFT-Fers that use the big butt hooks are using the bottom section as a thigh rest. And thigh rests are, interestingly enough, illegal in WFTF. Supposedly it's all about the attachment point (location) to the gun. I carefully questioned a WFTF friend at a match and he said it's WFTF legal to use a butthook as a thigh rest, but not to use a thigh rest as a thigh rest. 🤨


I think it's only a matter of time before the BOG needs to address what is and isn't a butthook. I see more and more butt hook-ish modifications to guns in Hunter class. More of a slow drift to butthooks versus buttpads. From personal experience, I can attest to having something on the buttpad area to keep the gun from dropping out of the shoulder pocket helps immensely when shooting from a stool and using shooting sticks.
Click to expand...
It was your shoulder / butt set up that got me thinking as wondered how a extension at say 90 degrees from the vertical would aid by acting as a weight rest using the shoulder as the weight bearing spot.
 
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