Air tank questions

In my opinion if you fill yourself with your compressor CE is good.

Allen

My opinion is that non dot approved tanks are fine if you fill yourself. I myself have scba fireman 45 and 60 min tanks as well as a 9L acecare non dot tank. As far as i can tell the quality seems the same. From my understanding there are only a handfull of high pressure tank makers in the world who sell to other sellers that put whatever label on them. I dont think FX makes their own tanks or other airgun manufacturers.

I agree that CE certified tanks are every bit as safe as DOT certified tanks, it's just that you won't able to get them commercially filled in the US. But if filling yourself it will be no issue. Just be sure to use an appropriate desiccant air dryer when filling any tank yourself - condensation in the tanks is a problem for either certification type.

BTW, CE is simply the European standard for the tanks. There is a lot of overlap between the US/Canada standard and the European one, and the same tank would probably pass both but nobody sells them with both lablels as they would make less money that way.

I have a 9L Acecare tank, along with a 45 minute used firehouse tank and a ~2L Joe Brancato "Guppy" tank. All work great, and all are filled at home.

AlanMcD said:

BTW, CE is simply the European standard for the tanks. There is a lot of overlap between the US/Canada standard and the European one, and the same tank would probably pass both but nobody sells them with both lablels as they would make less money that way.

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I don't know how prices compare, but Scandinavian Arms' tanks are "DOT and Pi certificated to cover all markets including Europe, US and Canada."
https://www.scandinavianarms.com/air-tanks

TN_Yankee said:

I don't know how prices compare, but Scandinavian Arms' tanks are "DOT and Pi certificated to cover all markets including Europe, US and Canada."
https://www.scandinavianarms.com/air-tanks

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Interesting. When I clicked and looked at their tanks, they are actually listed as being CE labelled, and have an asterisk with the following note:

*CE. This product is certified in Europe according to ADR/RID and TPED. Other regions may accept TPED and/or ISO 11119-3 certification as legislative documents.

I think what they are saying is that it meets DOT requirements too, but is not labelled as such - so a bit of buyer beware on this, as without the DOT label I don't think many places will fill it for you. It does look like a great product, and I agree with them in principle, but it could be a bit misleading to say what they do the way that they do without more clarity on the label . . . to really do what thye say, I'd expect to see multiple labels on the tank, not just the CE one.

Be careful with the "CE" mark because I saw somewhere there is a look-a-like symbol that means "China Export" with the only discernible (barely) difference being the space between the letters.

If you're filling tank yourself why not a used tank from ebay? Plenty of DOT tanks available for reasonable cost. A 30 minute scba would suit your parameters.

A 45 min scba is about 65 cu. ft., a 60 minute, about 88 cu. ft. A 30 min should be roughly 40-45ish cu. ft. You can do the cu. ft. To Liter conversion if you want. Imho MOST airgunners possess used tanks. They're (the tanks) inherently built to take a beating. Why pay $600-800 for a new tank when a used one in decent shape will provide the same service for under 1/3 of the new? I've been a firefighter & worked in the firefighting equipment industry for over 30 years. I feel very safe with my used tanks. We don't expose them to anywhere near the abuse they get in firefighting.

To me, this is nuts. There is absolutely no way in hell that you can look at a tank and say “the quality looks good” or, “if it says CE and you’re filling your own tank you should be fine”. And no offense to anyone that said that.
Your actual test for a CE tank, and the fake CE tank is going to be when you pump it up to 4,500psi between your legs or wherever, say a rosary, and see if it holds. Where do you hide from a 4,500psi bomb?
I guess the only way to be assured that the tank is safe is take it to a hydro test facility and ask if they’ll run the test regardless if they can print the certification on it. At least you’ll know that it will hold at the typical test psi.
But there are tons of airgunners that have I guess what you might call “undocumented tanks” safe because I have not read of any failures.
But my Brancato and AV SCBA’s were DOT and when I stepped away from PCP’s sold pretty easily and the buyer was able to see the DOT marking.
YMMV, and I personally don’t care what kind of tank anybody ends ip with, it’s your life and the life of the people you kill or maim in the process. It’s all good.

zerochance said:

I have uneasy thoughts about used tanks, possibly damages tanks that sellers may try to hide, and ebay. I don't understand the scba scale/size measurement. Is a 30 minutes scba tank equivalent to a 3L/30 cu ft air tank?

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Your question is very relevant. I hate all the different ways these tanks are sized. It is very confusing for sure. I could list all the different ways these tanks are listed, but the best and most reliable size is the specific tank volume in liters. As far as comparison from one method to another, there is no certain way to compare one rating to another. The easiest way is to compare the physical size like external diameter and length. The thickness of the CF/aluminum tank wall will generally be the same for all sizes if the pressure rating is the same. It is also important to note that only a small ratio of the total volume will ever be really used because once the tank pressure drops below your gun charge pressure, it is essentially empty and must be refilled to be useful. You should size your tank accordingly. So, what I'm stating is that small tanks are essentially useless in that role.

zerochance said:

I'm looking to buy an air tank. All I see are the 100 cu in, the 74 cu ft, and 98 cu ft. Sorry for the ignorant question, but why isn't there anything between 100 cu in and 74 cu ft? I'm looking on Amazon and they have 30 cu ft tanks but are only CE certified and NOT DOT approved. Are these ok to use and fill by myself? Or should I avoid them? I'm hoping to find somethin in the 30 cu ft range so I can bring it small game hunting in case I need a refill. 100 cu in might be too small... 74 cu ft is too big. Any shop that sells 30 cu ft air tanks that's DOT approved? Thanks!

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@zerochance I don’t know how these sizes became standard. It could be that the PCP segment of the airgun industry started using what was available to firefighters, military, and other sectors that work with carbon fiber SCBA tanks (i.e. 74 cu ft/30 45 minute or 98 cu ft/45 60 min) tanks. 100 cu in tanks are small buddy bottles (like the Joe B guppy tank) meant to be portable (like backpack portable). I think those may have come from the paint ball industry. I’ve only seen smaller HPA canisters used in naval/maritime applications. So to your question these standard or commonly seen sizes should be a lower risk because they’re what you will find sold by various vendors and sellers new and used. Meaning that people have used these sized tanks for years with success. These are my thoughts.

When it comes to safety, I’m not trying to be a trailblazer. I’d describe myself as a follower in that regard. Meaning I’m going to use what I’ve seen others use safely and for a long period of time. I’ve had good experiences with Air Venturi tanks new and used. When I bought a used tank I took it to a dive shop and paid for a visual inspection and fill. That way if something was wrong with the tank they could tell me and I had peace of mind. What works for me may not work for you.

As for the certifications, I think other members explained that well. If you plan to fill your own tanks you have more options. If not you must abide by the rules that govern dive shops, paint ball shops, fire stations, etc regarding the types of tanks they will fill.

Edit: To correct fireman minute ratings. @Humdinger was kind enough to message me on how to correct my errors above and to communicate carbon fiber SCBA tank ratings versus how these tanks are marketed to us.

rcs9250 said:

To me, this is nuts. There is absolutely no way in hell that you can look at a tank and say “the quality looks good” or, “if it says CE and you’re filling your own tank you should be fine”. And no offense to anyone that said that.
Your actual test for a CE tank, and the fake CE tank is going to be when you pump it up to 4,500psi between your legs or wherever, say a rosary, and see if it holds. Where do you hide from a 4,500psi bomb?
I guess the only way to be assured that the tank is safe is take it to a hydro test facility and ask if they’ll run the test regardless if they can print the certification on it. At least you’ll know that it will hold at the typical test psi.
But there are tons of airgunners that have I guess what you might call “undocumented tanks” safe because I have not read of any failures.
But my Brancato and AV SCBA’s were DOT and when I stepped away from PCP’s sold pretty easily and the buyer was able to see the DOT marking.
YMMV, and I personally don’t care what kind of tank anybody ends ip with, it’s your life and the life of the people you kill or maim in the process. It’s all good.

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I understand your safety concern and yes, the potential for explosion is there, but I think the risk is overstated. It is certainly not zero, but I suspect it is very low. In years gone by, tank failure was almost always because of corrosion, but when the tanks failed, they generally leak first. The aluminum SCUBA tanks were a different story to some extent because aluminum has poor fatigue strength. Since today's aluminum tanks are generally wrapped in CF they don't swell very much if at all when filled, so fatigue does not occur and expected tank life is greatly extended. Of course corrosion is still an issue, but not so much for explosions. i believe, that tank testing is hydraulically pressuring the tank to test pressure and measuring the amount of diameter swell that occurred., but since hardly any swelling occurs in CF wrapped tanks, that test is pretty much invalid. Most replaced tanks today are replaced based on age almost alone, which is really wasteful. If the tank is visually inspected and has no corrosion, there is no reason to replace it. If however the CF is damaged, that's another story.

Everyone must make their own choice based on facts. These tanks are built to withstand extremely hazardous conditions , heat , wear and tear , being cycled hundreds or even thousands of times in their service. The 5 year re - certification is to monitor the amount of use / abuse that a given tank has been subjected to. These are designed to be worn on firemen , mine workers , shipbuilders in confined spaces where breathing air could be missing. As for air gun use , it is highly unlikely that one could abuse one of these tanks anywhere as much as the industries that they were designed for. I have used and bought and sold these tanks . I am confident that they are structurally sound and capable of years of service. I use two tanks myself that are each 21 years old and have no reservation with using them. Again , this is a personal choice for each individual to determine on their own.