Benjamin Marauder Regulator

3Crows said:

LOL, you are a bit more advanced than me . Though, thanks to a new TP my JSAR M-Rod is right in there on the power and shot count now that it is not wasting a good bit of air out of a leaking TP!!!!!!

To mention something here, JSAR has the aluminum reservoir tubes which knock a lot of weight off of the rifle and improve balance greatly but at a very slight loss of volume. They are suitable for use with a regulator. The AGR can (possibly) custom build a hybrid steel/aluminum tube of greater capacity but the hybrid tubes cannot, repeat, cannot be used with a regulator as the ID is different from stock. My unregulated rifle with standard length hybrid tube gets as many shots at slightly more average power than my regulated JSAR M-Rod. Both need the JSB 34 grains pellets to be in their happy places. The addition of an aluminum tube caps the fill pressure at 3,000 psi, I know folks sneak some extra psi in on the standard steel tube . Best not do that with the aluminum tubes.

I ty to tune at around 5% below peak on the two regulated rifles. That results in a mini-Bell curve once off the reg and those are still useful shots off the reg.

Curious, what is your regulator pressure? I may need to toy with that again?

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My regged gun is aluminum tube made before Jsar entered the game.

Fwiw, you've been mislead about the marauder aluminum tube max fill pressure. They can safely handle 3250 psi fills. The individual that tested these tubes to failure used the wrong calculation to determine the safe max fill pressure...and I can extensively prove this here, and have to him, he had no words...and he is more than welcome to enter this discussion or any with me civilly.

"The ASME Code provides maximum allowable stress values used in calculating a vessel’s wall thickness, which vary with temperature. In Division 1, governing design by Rules with a safety factor of 3.5, a 60,000 psi tensile strength material has a Maximum Allowable Stress Value of 17,142 psi. In Division 2, governing design by Analysis with a lower safety factor of 2.5, the same material’s maximum allowable stress becomes 24,000 psi.


Some companies insist on Division 2 standards for their pressure vessels due to more rigorous requirements, while others may opt for Division 1 or Division 2 based on cost considerations. Typically, manufacturers choose Division 1 for low-pressure vessels and Division 2 for high-pressure ones. The maximum allowable stress values for commonly used steel plates in pressure vessel fabrication are provided in the table for the normal temperature range."

I personally use a SF of 3, in between Div l and Div ll because airgun tanks are high pressure vessels.

Ta-Ta Toothie said:

I will agree, once you remove the TP, you should replace it with a new one. He mentioned you can reuse them if they go back exactly as they came off. I don't bother as I have plenty of spares.

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if your talking about the polymer transfer port from tim hill , if you pull the gun apart just leave it alone and dont take it out and it usally goes back together just fine , but they are not enough money to not change if you want to make sure it wont leak

UDABEGGER said:

I am looking into regulating a non regulated Marauder.I want 900 fps with 19gr pellet from a 3000 psi fill with hammer and spring in middle adjustments.What regulator fits the bill at what pre-adjusted setting. Moochess grabass amigos!

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its good to have a "non regulated air gun" a couple parts you can get that will work good with non regulated is a "stopping spring guide " SSG" JSAR has one , and the twin spring system " basically its a good adjustable end cap that works with the SSG very well , just use the factory spring in your gun and you should be able to just tune your gun for more shots , it should stop your hammer from bouncing on the poppett "valve" and you can adjust for free flight on your hammer, and if you decide to regulate in the future those parts work really well with that application as well. and never a reg problem ! my air arms s410 is un regulated and it never failed , year after year ! in the world of everything regulated " you have a great gun to just touch up and enjoy shooting ! and with those parts you can change springs and do SSG adjustments very easy , its a good system unless you can get one of these guys to build you something better " and many of them here can ! i have those parts on mine

I could be wrong and usually mostly am. But, if I am not, there is no way in Hades (not the pellet) that a .25 M-Rod is going to get much more than 16 shots, if that, at higher power (50+) with the stock hammer and spring tightly preloaded against the valve poppet. What you will get is a bouncing hammer that wastes air, makes more noise and is an inefficient brr-rrr--ppp.

Also, thanks @Stubbers, I agree with your calculations that the aluminum tubes are good for 3,250 psi working pressure with sufficient margin. I am staying at 3,000 psi to give myself that fudge factor when filling. My (regulated) guns are running from a 3,000 psi fill down to 1,900 psi reg setting plus a few bonus shots after falling off.

3Crows said:

I could be wrong and usually mostly am. But, if I am not, there is no way in Hades (not the pellet) that a .25 M-Rod is going to get much more than 16 shots, if that, at higher power (50+) with the stock hammer and spring tightly preloaded against the valve poppet. What you will get is a bouncing hammer that wastes air, makes more noise and is an inefficient brr-rrr--ppp.

Also, thanks @Stubbers, I agree with your calculations that the aluminum tubes are good for 3,250 psi working pressure with sufficient margin. I am staying at 3,000 psi to give myself that fudge factor when filling.

Click to expand...

IDK anyone in their right mind who would regulate a marauder and leave the stock hammer weight and spring, at any power level.

3,250 is my personal fudge factor and there is plenty of headroom, as I said I use 3x instead of 2.5x, at 2.5x SF you get 4122 psi. 3x gives 3435 psi. Ultimately, if you know, you know, and if you don't, be cautious and use manufacturer recommendations, however I 'manufactured' my aluminum tube.

-Matt

Stubbers said:

3,250 is my personal fudge factor and there is plenty of headroom, as I said I use 3x instead of 2.5x, at 2.5x SF you get 4122 psi. 3x gives 3435 psi. Ultimately, if you know, you know, and if you don't, be cautious and use manufacturer recommendations, however I 'manufactured' my aluminum tube.

-Matt

Click to expand...

I also ordered the tubing, it had to be special ordered. I have all the slots cut and holes drilled for a Gen 1. I still need to square and thread the end. Then I decided to retire after a generous offer from the company and that ended that (access to machines) for the time being. And then along came JSAR and put out some more tubes and then I found AGR who would do a hybrid for my Gen 1 .25. So that project got shelved, may have to go find it someday. Everyone needs five M-Rods, or do they ! That is the problem with these things, every time I build one I have enough parts left over that it is just barely tempting to build another.

I am not afraid at all to use 3,250 psi for filling, maybe I will hence forth. You have me feeling good about it. It has happened accidentally a few times, shhhh !

I neither could not imagine using a stock hammer system with a regged M-Rod either or for that matter not very much happy with them on a non-regged rifle. But I have seen it and read it enough times that apparently some are not going to a SSG/FFH arrangement. Stopping hammer bounce by giving the system a little free flight and no preload on the valve poppet seems intuitive from this side of the mirror but having once stood on the other side of the mirror it took a little while to appreciate the subtle difference that is not so subtle in practice.

3Crows said:

I also ordered the tubing, it had to be special ordered. I have all the slots cut and holes drilled for a Gen 1. I still need to square and thread the end. Then I decided to retire after a generous offer from the company and that ended that (access to machines) for the time being. And then along came JSAR and put out some more tubes and then I found AGR who would do a hybrid for my Gen 1 .25. So that project got shelved, may have to go find it someday. Everyone needs five M-Rods, or do they ! That is the problem with these things, every time I build one I have enough parts left over that it is just barely tempting to build another.

I am not afraid at all to use 3,250 psi for filling, maybe I will hence forth. You have me feeling good about it. It has happened accidentally a few times, shhhh !

I neither could not imagine using a stock hammer system with a regged M-Rod either or for that matter not very much happy with them on a non-regged rifle. But I have seen it and read it enough times that apparently some are not going to a SSG/FFH arrangement. Stopping hammer bounce by giving the system a little free flight and no preload on the valve poppet seems intuitive from this side of the mirror but having once stood on the other side of the mirror it took a little while to appreciate the subtle difference that is not so subtle in practice.

Click to expand...

I rarely fill to capacity frankly, no reason to be obsessed with maximum shot counts or spreadsheets imo. I just know my tubes limits (same specs as jsar, even down to length due to machining up the ends of a 2ft tube) and capacity if the situation calls for it, which, rarely is reality.

The tube was tested to failure at 10,000 psi and yielded at 9,000. Using just that data alone, a 3x safety margin = 3,333 psi for tensile failure, and for yield at 2.5 would be 4,500.

If you were to use ASME Div l standards, you should only fill that tube to 2,857 psi...

So why the 3,000 psi? Status quo.

-Matt

Even numbers sounds more official

Ta-Ta Toothie said:

Even numbers sounds more official

Click to expand...

2856 it is then, round down and be super safe.

I hope this illustrates how silly enforcing the 3k fill on an aluminum marauder tube is..

-Matt

My mrod with a extended aluminum tube

OCgunner said:

I am struggling to adjust my 25 Armada with the same setup. What did you end up with for regulator pressure?

Click to expand...

This response for posterity for future M-Rodders who have not given up on the best PCP ever , ! Having gone this thread astray so trying to get back on track. As has been pointed out by at least one member, nobody is going to do a regulated M-Rod with the stock hammer and spring thus wanting "middle" adjustments of the stock setup is not going to work and is not what is wanted. An SSG is needed.

So, my probably misguided direction would be (for a .22 or a .25):

1. Huma regulator with gage hole and also get the XXL plenum to play with (sometimes sold as the .25 kit)
2. Tim Hill #7 valve poppet spring (lighter than stock)
3. Tim Hill .161 aluminum transfer port or drill out stock (not easy)*
4. Optional, purchase Tim Hill gage manifold (gives more HP volume than stock)
5. Drill/ream barrel port to .161*
6. Purchase and install this SSG:


7. Remove rubber depinger as no longer needed and uses up a smidge of HP volume
8. Set Huma reg to 1800 psi
9. Shoot rifle over chrono for velocity and adjust free flight hammer gap to increase or decrease velocity and incrementally raise reg pressure up to 2000 psi

*Do these things only after shooting the rifle over the chrono at 1800 to 2000 psi regulator settings and adjusting the SSG to minimum possible gap and still have low velocity. I would work up to .19 TP and barrel porting for a .25 rifle. And at that point for a .25 you might need to open the valve port a little.

Note: install a piece of lock wire around the regulator screw to allow pulling the regulator for adjustment without pulling the gun completely apart.

And back off topic, my unregulated .25 M-Rod side lever with extended AGR hybrid reservoir, Tim Hill valve, AGR steel hammer, .161 TP and barrel porting, Custom Air side lever breech, 9 round magazines, bottle brush depinger. It shoots 27 shots at 52 fpe average or .5 turn in to minimum free flight gap it gives 60 fpe average for 19 shots, both on a flat Bell curve. I love this rifle:





You can do a good shooting M-Rod without messing with a regulator.

Thank you all for the input. I left out some details in my original post. I have a Huma XXL reg with no gauge port currently set at 147 bar, hill matched kit for a regulated gun, valve, hammer, spring and peek striker. I ported the barrel and deburred it.

My current setting Max's out at 930 fps with JSB 26gr. For about 9 shots. So I slowly worked my way down to 880 fps.

It gets about 16 shots so I back off the hammer to try to lower to about 865 and gain shots. Everything is cool i get about 30 shots and stop to fill up the reservoir when my last shot has decreased to about 839.

Then the first shot is 840 and it just keeps dropping on a full reservoir.


I am thinking I maybe I need to adjust the regulator down to 135 or so and check it to make sure the vent is facing up.

3Crows said:

This response for posterity for future M-Rodders who have not given up on the best PCP ever , ! Having gone this thread astray so trying to get back on track. As has been pointed out by at least one member, nobody is going to do a regulated M-Rod with the stock hammer and spring thus wanting "middle" adjustments of the stock setup is not going to work and is not what is wanted. An SSG is needed.

So, my probably misguided direction would be (for a .22 or a .25):

1. Huma regulator with gage hole and also get the XXL plenum to play with (sometimes sold as the .25 kit)
2. Tim Hill #7 valve poppet spring (lighter than stock)
3. Tim Hill .161 aluminum transfer port or drill out stock (not easy)*
4. Optional, purchase Tim Hill gage manifold (gives more HP volume than stock)
5. Drill/ream barrel port to .161*
6. Purchase and install this SSG:

Lightweight SSG for Regulated Marauders - Airgun Revisions

A lightweight SSG for guns regulated 1800psi and under. Regulated guns could still tend to have hammer bounce with traditional spring loaded hammer on valve. The nylon makes cocking the gun smooth with added dampening effects. Hardened faceplate for long sear life and forward weight. None...

www.airgunrevisions.com

7. Remove rubber depinger as no longer needed and uses up a smidge of HP volume
8. Set Huma reg to 1800 psi
9. Shoot rifle over chrono for velocity and adjust free flight hammer gap to increase or decrease velocity and incrementally raise reg pressure up to 2000 psi

*Do these things only after shooting the rifle over the chrono at 1800 to 2000 psi regulator settings and adjusting the SSG to minimum possible gap and still have low velocity. I would work up to .19 TP and barrel porting for a .25 rifle. And at that point for a .25 you might need to open the valve port a little.

Note: install a piece of lock wire around the regulator screw to allow pulling the regulator for adjustment without pulling the gun completely apart.

And back off topic, my unregulated .25 M-Rod side lever with extended AGR hybrid reservoir, Tim Hill valve, AGR steel hammer, .161 TP and barrel porting, Custom Air side lever breech, 9 round magazines, bottle brush depinger. It shoots 27 shots at 52 fpe average or .5 turn in to minimum free flight gap it gives 60 fpe average for 19 shots, both on a flat Bell curve. I love this rifle:





You can do a good shooting M-Rod without messing with it

Click to expand...

3Crows said:

This response for posterity for future M-Rodders who have not given up on the best PCP ever , ! Having gone this thread astray so trying to get back on track. As has been pointed out by at least one member, nobody is going to do a regulated M-Rod with the stock hammer and spring thus wanting "middle" adjustments of the stock setup is not going to work and is not what is wanted. An SSG is needed.

So, my probably misguided direction would be (for a .22 or a .25):

1. Huma regulator with gage hole and also get the XXL plenum to play with (sometimes sold as the .25 kit)
2. Tim Hill #7 valve poppet spring (lighter than stock)
3. Tim Hill .161 aluminum transfer port or drill out stock (not easy)*
4. Optional, purchase Tim Hill gage manifold (gives more HP volume than stock)
5. Drill/ream barrel port to .161*
6. Purchase and install this SSG:

Lightweight SSG for Regulated Marauders - Airgun Revisions

A lightweight SSG for guns regulated 1800psi and under. Regulated guns could still tend to have hammer bounce with traditional spring loaded hammer on valve. The nylon makes cocking the gun smooth with added dampening effects. Hardened faceplate for long sear life and forward weight. None...

www.airgunrevisions.com

7. Remove rubber depinger as no longer needed and uses up a smidge of HP volume
8. Set Huma reg to 1800 psi
9. Shoot rifle over chrono for velocity and adjust free flight hammer gap to increase or decrease velocity and incrementally raise reg pressure up to 2000 psi

*Do these things only after shooting the rifle over the chrono at 1800 to 2000 psi regulator settings and adjusting the SSG to minimum possible gap and still have low velocity. I would work up to .19 TP and barrel porting for a .25 rifle. And at that point for a .25 you might need to open the valve port a little.

Note: install a piece of lock wire around the regulator screw to allow pulling the regulator for adjustment without pulling the gun completely apart.

And back off topic, my unregulated .25 M-Rod side lever with extended AGR hybrid reservoir, Tim Hill valve, AGR steel hammer, .161 TP and barrel porting, Custom Air side lever breech, 9 round magazines, bottle brush depinger. It shoots 27 shots at 52 fpe average or .5 turn in to minimum free flight gap it gives 60 fpe average for 19 shots, both on a flat Bell curve. I love this rifle:





You can do a good shooting M-Rod without messing with a regulator.

Click to expand...

Love that lever action

OCgunner said:

Thank you all for the input. I left out some details in my original post. I have a Huma XXL reg with no gauge port currently set at 147 bar, hill matched kit for a regulated gun, valve, hammer, spring and peek striker. I ported the barrel and deburred it.

My current setting Max's out at 930 fps with JSB 26gr. For about 9 shots. So I slowly worked my way down to 880 fps.

It gets about 16 shots so I back off the hammer to try to lower to about 865 and gain shots. Everything is cool i get about 30 shots and stop to fill up the reservoir when my last shot has decreased to about 839.

Then the first shot is 840 and it just keeps dropping on a full reservoir.


I am thinking I maybe I need to adjust the regulator down to 135 or so and check it to make sure the vent is facing up.

Click to expand...

Between the valve and the regulator there has to be a gage block and a plenum. I have a Tim Hill which is much larger volume than the OE part in a couple of my rifles. You should have then a gage installed that will show plenum pressure.

Sounds like to me your regulator is not regulating and you are shooting basically unregulated but with a bunch of restrictions (the non-functioning regulator) between the HP air and the valve. If you are using the XXL plenum 1258 there is an O-ring you cannot see (in bag 1258) between it and the gage block manifold, located in the end of the plenum to seal to the gage manifold and notice the gage manifold has an O-ring removed. Or plenum with integrated gage 1259 can be used but the plenum volume is reduced significantly.



I am running about 1900 to 2000 psi on my regulator. You need the XXL plenum 1258 if this is a .25. Lose the TH hammer. You need a SSG/FFH hammer type, put the PEEK striker in the end of the SSG if you want. The lightweight TH aluminum hammer does not bounce as badly as the OE steel hammer but without free flight gap it is preloaded to the exhaust valve poppet exactly like the OE set up and you will get hammer bounce and the brrrrp sound instead of a sharp snap.

I like the JSAR breech better but this Custom Air one is nice too, both are a PITA to rig up for different reasons. I am going to increase the size of the handle grip on this one, my fangles sometimes slip.