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Time to combine Open and Hunter?

Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Let's say you have a 10 year old family member (we'll say son because it's easier to write "son" a bunch of times as opposed to grand daughter, niece, nephew, etc.). You want to teach your son how to hunt, so you go for a squirrel hunt with your Marauder. You find a good spot to sit and range find a few trees, so you'll have a good idea of the ranges when you see a squirrel. Every time you see a tree rat, you tell your son how much to hold over. Maybe, after a while, you give him a dope sheet so he can figure out his own hold overs. Then you range the squirrels and tell him the yardage, but the squirrels don't like all of this yammering, so you give him the range finder. Now, he can spot a squirrel, range find it, look up his dope and shoot it. Mission accomplished.

Here's my thought: If you think that field target (especially Hunter division) is supposed to be training or a simulation for hunting, consider that the current rules for Hunter Division encourage unethical hunting. You are supposed to take a variety of shots from a variety of distances, but you aren't allowed to know what those distances are. You can use the parallax focus of your scope to try to figure out the distance, but you have to turn the magnification down to a level that makes it extremely difficult to range find past 40 yards. The reasoning for this is so that you can be competitive with a cheap Walmart scope, but everyone you are shooting against has a $1,500 scope to try to get a marginal performance increase when range finding.

The obvious way to level the playing field and slow down the equipment race is to allow range finders. A $60 range finder will vastly out perform a $3,000 scope at range finding out to 55 yards. But, because range finders were a bazillion dollars when the FT rules were first written, we have decided that range finding is just part of the sport. Long distance field target thankfully realized that range finding with a low powered scope is ridiculous,

I'm not proposing any rules changes (because that has never worked out for me), just wanted to point out that the Field Target rules don't reflect the way that most people hunt. I would love to go back to shooting Hunter Division, I enjoy the simplicity and comfort. But I can't afford a scope that would allow me to be competitive within the current rules.
 
what is the acceptable level of 'suck' one can reasonably take while thinking it's worth continuing?

as far as I know, this game started with the kind of tech AirNGasMan posted....the kind of basic equipment that anyone could buy and wasn't particularly special, with big ol' 1.5"/40mm KZ sizes because 4x scopes and break barrels made for some tough shooting.

we dont have 3/8" KZ because people are getting too good with break barrels with fixed low-mag scopes....it's because of the arms race. the arms race that has people snickering about Marauder shooters behind their back. Not a $98 walmart gamo (which I have shot FT with my first time)...an $800 reasonably capable gun...but one that will have trouble with shots at targets under 1/2"

no, noobs aren't expected to compete for top spots the first season or two or even three. but the pervasive attitude it seems that anyone who doesn't want to compete at the top level shouldn't even bother. in fact, it's suggested that not only walking in with a marauder and $200 scope is laughable, that they should have a harder time ranging as some sort of hazing ritual until you buy your way into equipment.

when do we allow 120x optical zoom with automated ranging and motorized turret adjustment? when those guys are out there 55/60 a course at 1/2 kz where will we go as a sport? are they going to start laughing at noobs with their redwolfs and 60x scopes?
My experience with field target participants, old timers and new comers, is that they are gracious and helpful and don’t laugh at anyone based on equipment. Perhaps those feelings of inadequacy come from within some people who compare themselves to others rather than focusing on the KZ’s? 🤷‍♂️
 
See post #169

At the 3 clubs where I attend monthly matches, nearly everyone has already "invested" in their FT gear.
Presently one of the biggest nationwide challenges for field target communities in general, isn't the pricey equipment some shooters are using, rather it’s the lack of facilities and airgun communities that are available within a reasonable driving distance.

Land$
Targets$
Insurance $
Infrastructure $
Grounds maintenance $

If you are fortunate enough to have an active FT Club or airgun range anywhere close by… you are blessed beyond any amount of money you could spend on Airguns and scopes.
 
Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Let's say you have a 10 year old family member (we'll say son because it's easier to write "son" a bunch of times as opposed to grand daughter, niece, nephew, etc.). You want to teach your son how to hunt, so you go for a squirrel hunt with your Marauder. You find a good spot to sit and range find a few trees, so you'll have a good idea of the ranges when you see a squirrel. Every time you see a tree rat, you tell your son how much to hold over. Maybe, after a while, you give him a dope sheet so he can figure out his own hold overs. Then you range the squirrels and tell him the yardage, but the squirrels don't like all of this yammering, so you give him the range finder. Now, he can spot a squirrel, range find it, look up his dope and shoot it. Mission accomplished.

Here's my thought: If you think that field target (especially Hunter division) is supposed to be training or a simulation for hunting, consider that the current rules for Hunter Division encourage unethical hunting. You are supposed to take a variety of shots from a variety of distances, but you aren't allowed to know what those distances are. You can use the parallax focus of your scope to try to figure out the distance, but you have to turn the magnification down to a level that makes it extremely difficult to range find past 40 yards. The reasoning for this is so that you can be competitive with a cheap Walmart scope, but everyone you are shooting against has a $1,500 scope to try to get a marginal performance increase when range finding.

The obvious way to level the playing field and slow down the equipment race is to allow range finders. A $60 range finder will vastly out perform a $3,000 scope at range finding out to 55 yards. But, because range finders were a bazillion dollars when the FT rules were first written, we have decided that range finding is just part of the sport. Long distance field target thankfully realized that range finding with a low powered scope is ridiculous,

I'm not proposing any rules changes (because that has never worked out for me), just wanted to point out that the Field Target rules don't reflect the way that most people hunt. I would love to go back to shooting Hunter Division, I enjoy the simplicity and comfort. But I can't afford a scope that would allow me to be competitive within the current rules.
Past 35 yards My $1900 Sightron S6 ranges no better than some of my $500 scopes at 16X. Period! Now up the power to 30X and Shazam… I can differentiate by the 1/2 yard and see what I’m aiming at 55 yards away. It still doesn’t mean I can hold point or read the wind to score the KZ.
 
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I feel like it should all be .177 caliber. Those .20 caliber shooters in HFT have a clear BC advantage. Might as well be cheating.
Not sure what YOUR smoking, but having the insight to shoot .20 cal has been available to EVERYONE in EVERY class sense the inception of >20 fpe Field target in the Americas.
I sure as hell know I've taken advantage of the advantage and have absolutely NO guilt about it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Smoke on 🥴
 
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I give up on keeping this on topic.

I didn’t mean to single anyone out. You proved my point. There should not be an advantage. A fair and balanced tournament makes sense. Not very many high end field target guns have a .20 caliber option. If there was I’d be all over it.


Choose the .20/20fpe option and throw an AR butt tube stock of your choice on it. Voila, field target gun in .20. 🤌
 
I give up on keeping this on topic.




Choose the .20/20fpe option and throw an AR butt tube stock of your choice on it. Voila, field target gun in .20. 🤌
Oh, looks like I’ll be joining you guys now. lol
 
I didn’t mean to single anyone out. You proved my point. There should not be an advantage. A fair and balanced tournament makes sense. Not very many high end field target guns have a .20 caliber option. If there was I’d be all over it.
Most folks think .20 is a bastard ... thats fine, as most who have shot or own a .20 know differently.
Seldom does much that's in the Grey get acknowledged until such time as many start being successful using said "in-Da-grey" items which at such time a light goes off that you too might just get on the band wagon and experience some of whats going on.

True .20 cal has been "Going on" sense @ 1947 with Sheridan making a production rifle in the caliber. In these last 77 years you either explored what the caliber had to offer, Ignored it, or were indifferent.
Public & manufacturer "Indifference" is mostly to blame why the caliber to this day for many is viewed as a bastard. Your loss, users gain ... end of story.
 
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Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Let's say you have a 10 year old family member (we'll say son because it's easier to write "son" a bunch of times as opposed to grand daughter, niece, nephew, etc.). You want to teach your son how to hunt, so you go for a squirrel hunt with your Marauder. You find a good spot to sit and range find a few trees, so you'll have a good idea of the ranges when you see a squirrel. Every time you see a tree rat, you tell your son how much to hold over. Maybe, after a while, you give him a dope sheet so he can figure out his own hold overs. Then you range the squirrels and tell him the yardage, but the squirrels don't like all of this yammering, so you give him the range finder. Now, he can spot a squirrel, range find it, look up his dope and shoot it. Mission accomplished.

Here's my thought: If you think that field target (especially Hunter division) is supposed to be training or a simulation for hunting, consider that the current rules for Hunter Division encourage unethical hunting. You are supposed to take a variety of shots from a variety of distances, but you aren't allowed to know what those distances are. You can use the parallax focus of your scope to try to figure out the distance, but you have to turn the magnification down to a level that makes it extremely difficult to range find past 40 yards. The reasoning for this is so that you can be competitive with a cheap Walmart scope, but everyone you are shooting against has a $1,500 scope to try to get a marginal performance increase when range finding.

The obvious way to level the playing field and slow down the equipment race is to allow range finders. A $60 range finder will vastly out perform a $3,000 scope at range finding out to 55 yards. But, because range finders were a bazillion dollars when the FT rules were first written, we have decided that range finding is just part of the sport. Long distance field target thankfully realized that range finding with a low powered scope is ridiculous,t

I'm not proposing any rules changes (because that has never worked out for me), just wanted to point out that the Field Target rules don't reflect the way that most people hunt. I would love to go back to shooting Hunter Division, I enjoy the simplicity and comfort. But I can't afford a scope that would allow me to be competitive within the current rules.

At this point I'd rather just have the distances given on the score card then increase both distance and difficulty factor like in our local UFT match.

But half the FT shooters would freak out and stop coming.
 
I didn’t mean to single anyone out. You proved my point. There should not be an advantage. A fair and balanced tournament makes sense. Not very many high end field target guns have a .20 caliber option. If there was I’d be all over it.
its not the gun.... its the creature aiming the thing and pulling the trigger at the exact time in space....to score... the equipment hype is highly overated.
 
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I give up on keeping this on topic.




Choose the .20/20fpe option and throw an AR butt tube stock of your choice on it. Voila, field target gun in .20. 🤌
no no no we are just getting some"where".... now "where" where is, a different question.
perhaps @Franklink we go to summation

two classes WFTF <12 FPE
and
AFT <20 FPE

two sub classes in each main group

Springer
PCP

Same idea for Pistol

Done.... !

just let the folks sit how they want and shoot how they want
provided aids or things like tripods or similar anchors are not allowed - in other words within reason and clearly state what is not allowed or what is allowed whatever takes less language.
 
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I didn’t mean to single anyone out. You proved my point. There should not be an advantage. A fair and balanced tournament makes sense. Not very many high end field target guns have a .20 caliber option. If there was I’d be all over it.
The difference is hardly any, some but very slight. Also since 20 cal is wider than 17 it can be a slight hindrance, again, slight, but the higher chance of a split is there. And I don't own a 20 cal. Plus the trajectory is more loopy with 20 cal compared to a 10.3gr.

I think any perceived advantage is lost in the noise of everything else "Human", or environmental, that happens in a shooting match.

There's people that practice often, some almost daily, those are the ones that will win most of the time unless something unexpected happens and caliber wouldn't be the reason for placing on the roster.
 
Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Let's say you have a 10 year old family member (we'll say son because it's easier to write "son" a bunch of times as opposed to grand daughter, niece, nephew, etc.). You want to teach your son how to hunt, so you go for a squirrel hunt with your Marauder. You find a good spot to sit and range find a few trees, so you'll have a good idea of the ranges when you see a squirrel. Every time you see a tree rat, you tell your son how much to hold over. Maybe, after a while, you give him a dope sheet so he can figure out his own hold overs. Then you range the squirrels and tell him the yardage, but the squirrels don't like all of this yammering, so you give him the range finder. Now, he can spot a squirrel, range find it, look up his dope and shoot it. Mission accomplished.

Here's my thought: If you think that field target (especially Hunter division) is supposed to be training or a simulation for hunting, consider that the current rules for Hunter Division encourage unethical hunting. You are supposed to take a variety of shots from a variety of distances, but you aren't allowed to know what those distances are. You can use the parallax focus of your scope to try to figure out the distance, but you have to turn the magnification down to a level that makes it extremely difficult to range find past 40 yards. The reasoning for this is so that you can be competitive with a cheap Walmart scope, but everyone you are shooting against has a $1,500 scope to try to get a marginal performance increase when range finding.

The obvious way to level the playing field and slow down the equipment race is to allow range finders. A $60 range finder will vastly out perform a $3,000 scope at range finding out to 55 yards. But, because range finders were a bazillion dollars when the FT rules were first written, we have decided that range finding is just part of the sport. Long distance field target thankfully realized that range finding with a low powered scope is ridiculous,

I'm not proposing any rules changes (because that has never worked out for me), just wanted to point out that the Field Target rules don't reflect the way that most people hunt. I would love to go back to shooting Hunter Division, I enjoy the simplicity and comfort. But I can't afford a scope that would allow me to be competitive within the current rules.

I'd been feeling guilty about the length of some of my posts ever since 'someone' criticized my (occasional) propensity(s) to ramble by stating they had started to read one such post, decided to move it to the back burner in favor of higher priorities, until which time life would allow room for mindless entertainment (again). But (now) having experienced the same prioritization myself with the post quoted above, I've not only shed aforementioned guilt like a serpent sheds its skin, but recognized the wisdom in aforementioned someone's modus operandi.

Apparently I'm not too old to learn (YET)🤤; albeit the lessons that 'stick' fall somewhat short of epiphany-level.

To paraphrase- good post, Bud.(y)

Y'all please excuse me. Feels like nappy time now. 🥱

.
 
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Oh no, I broke grandpa. Again.

See you at the match Sunday. Bring one of your vintage garage sale rifles and teach us whipper-snappers why you don't pick a fight with crusty old men.

PS, I went back into my reply and added proper capitalization and punctuation, just because I love you.

Before I teach one particular Whipper-Snapper a(nother) shooting lesson, apparently I need to give him a(nother) lesson in proper capitalization. Not only should Whipper-Snapper be capitalized, but also every letter in GRANDPA! 😂

See you Sunday, Sunny (not a misspelling, it's short for Sunshine; as in 'you are my').

XOXO,😘
Crusty GRANDPA

 
Seems to be an undertone that Hunter class couldn't compete against guys shooting from Open but Hunter are already often the highest scores of the entire match.
Exactly, we had a new shooter we trained in Hunter PCP, ( his second match but with a lot of training). Bill Galloway's scored the overall high score on a 41.39 troyer course with wind etc. He shot a 92/100. The second highest score was in Open with 89/100 from a veteran shooter.

Hunter class rules are just fine if you are considering equality among the existing classes.

I guess the solution has to be for now, to combine Open and Hunter for prizes if there is not 3 in either class.