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Mythbusting Precision BR

But they haven't been clobbered, as a mechanical rest takes the potential for human error in aiming during the shot out of the equation. It is a different game. That is why there is an opportunity for an additional class in N50...a "Rifle" class. Shooting off bags sitting on a bench from a sitting position.
1. A mechanical rest requires one to set the POA to adjust for wind conditions so the POI is in the 10 ring. So you are absolutely wrong with your assumption the rest removes human error in aiming from the equation.

2. With NRL22 and PSA competitions available to you, why would a marksman of your level even want to shoot N50?
 
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Do either of those have a 50 yard (meter) air rifle pellet class that does not allow mechanical rests, remote triggers, etc?
They both use Bipods, bags and barriers, neither allows remote triggers and carrying a mechanical rest between points of fire would be funny to watch.

They both have some targets at 50 yards but if your not good enough to shoot beyond 50 yards then neither is for you.
 
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Just having a rest doesn't mean you automatically shoot or know shot placement any better before.
Holding still doesn't mean you are hitting in the crosshairs or holdover point
Seems simple to just place a rifle on a rest and shoot, but to get the most accuracy out of what you got is an endless quest
I never knew that where you place a rifle on the rest effected the accuracy...something new i learned

There also seems to be a lot of products that promise improvement, but are just snake-oils. Navigating through it all can be very difficult for a new person.

I am appreciative that someone like Mike @thomasair tells you the facts from experience.
Some of what he says is not an easy swallow, but it doesn't make it false.
Mike
@manabeknives , Case in point … I spent a considerable amount of time (lots of hours and lead) “tuning” my rifle position on my one piece rest. Some positions would cause vertical stringing and other positions would cause more vibrations, effecting POI and group size. When I FINALLY found the magic spot my accuracy increased a LOT and my random vertical fliers were eliminated. I could not believe it was possible but it made a huge difference on my accuracy and scores. So yes, there is a LOT more to it than just plopping a rifle into a lead sled and blowing the center out of a bulls eye.
 
@manabeknives , Case in point … I spent a considerable amount of time (lots of hours and lead) “tuning” my rifle position on my one piece rest. Some positions would cause vertical stringing and other positions would cause more vibrations, effecting POI and group size. When I FINALLY found the magic spot my accuracy increased a LOT and my random vertical fliers were eliminated. I could not believe it was possible but it made a huge difference on my accuracy and scores. So yes, there is a LOT more to it than just plopping a rifle into a lead sled and blowing the center out of a bulls eye.
It took three 2 piece rest setups and two 1-piece rests before I found what my damn Thomas liked. I shoot the best groups with a 2 piece rest and the highest points with a 1-piece rest.
 
@KodiakJac

Here you go brother, l solved all your problems

KODIAKJAC's AGN 50 YARD TARGET CHALLENGE

A. Rifle: Any 22 caliber PCP, Single Stroke Pneumatic, or Springer.
B. Sights: Any and all.
C. Ammunition: Any and all factory produced (not custom made) 22 caliber diabolo pellets or slugs.
D. Rifle Support: Sandbag front and rear, Sandbag front NO rear rest, Bipod front and Sandbag rear, or Bipod front and NO rear rest.
E. Bench: Any horizontal flat surface of a height that allows the shooter comfortable access to the rifle, is wide enough to safely accommodate the rifle and rest system, and long enough that the rifle may be grounded without the muzzle and/or butt hanging off over the edge.
F.Target: N50
G. Target Distance: 50 yards from rifle muzzle, verified by steel tape measure.
H. Wind Direction & Speed Indicators: 3 may be used.
1. The 1st must be placed a minimum or 5 yards in front of the muzzle, 2nd 20 yards in front of the muzzle, 3rd 40 yards in front of the muzzle.
2. All three must be centered on the line of fire from muzzle to target and may NOT encroach in any way on another shooter's line of fire.
I. Course Of Fire:
1. 30 minutes for sighters
2. 60 minutes for 25 record bulls.
3. NO sighters allowed during record shooting.

It's your baby now. So decide the target scoring process, how many targets a week we can submit and the league division and ranking system.

Time to get postal!
 
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1. A mechanical rest requires one to set the POA to adjust for wind conditions so the POI is in the 10 ring. So you are absolutely wrong with your assumption the rest removes human error in aiming from the equation.

My quote was "as a mechanical rest takes the potential for human error in aiming during the shot out of the equation" with "aiming during the shot" being the operative point. The shot is not complete until the pellet leaves the muzzle and is on its way to the target. Pulling the trigger and controlling the subsequent shot cycle without disrupting your aim is the most difficult part of shooting. That is absent when using a mechanical rest.

But my "common, low life, bottom feeder, low skill, knuckle dragger Neanderthal" suggestion is a moot point, now. So, never mind.
 
Excluding the product showcase/exhibition matches like PA Cup, RMAC, and EBR (ie, focusing on actual benchrest in the sense of what's being discussed here)......

True benchrest seems to be an outlier in the "shooting sports." And this is an outside-looking-in view because I'm not a benchrest guy. All of the other shooting sports that come to mind involve a very visceral interaction between the gun (or bow) and its operator. A large part of success in shooting sports typically relates back to that physical interaction. That "muscle memory" if you will. From my non-benchrest background and mindset, holding the gun when it's fired is the very act of shooting. "Shooting a gun" and physically handling it during that fired shot are one and the same, again, for a non benchrest guy like me.

Benchrest, in contrast, appears to be an obsession with answering the question of how damn precise and accurate can this piece of equipment be? ("Piece of equipment" being the projectile launching device.) And that obsession with precision goes so far as to take the handling of the "gun" while it fires completely out of the equation. To the point of removing shoulder pieces and using sleds on ball bearings, etc. Essentially whittling away the parts of a gun that us non benchrest guys feel are integral parts of what makes a gun, a gun.

Minimizing the influence of the weakest link (the human) of the equation in that obsession with precision doesn't make it wrong. But what that looks like sure makes it hard for a non benchrest shooter to reconcile what they know as "shooting a gun" with what's happening at an N50 match by one of the guys at the top of the leaderboard.

Benchrest mentality seems to have transcended the desire to be holding/shouldering the gun when it goes off.

Hopefully that came across how I intended. I'm not trying to belittle benchrest shooters or their methods. It's just another way to enjoy/pursue precision. A VERY different one than many of us that are used to shouldering a gun.
 
Real Benchrest is a 100 yo obsession. it's not something that sprung up out of nothing recently - it leads rifle development as Mike said something like, "every improvement in 'regular' shooting is derived from benchrest." as example, Browning's old 'Boss' tuner. F-Class competitors are shooting off mechanical rests now. Look at the "product showcase/exhibition matches", as Frank brought up, - they are now moving away from flimsy bipods and going to robust mechanical rests and flags too and scores are improving. Some have learned.
Benchrest folks are obsessed with taking-the-dot-out 75 times per match - Mike is trying hard to teach you.
1729924571423.png

Another thought, if you're not here to help/learn then go to any of the other AGN Disciplines and cozy with them. Benchrest folks don't go to other disciplines to impose opinions. But you are welcome if you're here to teach or learn - most here will welcome and help anyone.

I think this topic has been hi-jacked enough, don't you?
 
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I am not much of a plinker & have obsession with repeatable accuracy. I suspect this mentality is what has driven all BR types since it started long ago. Thomas has figured out somethings that takes major time in development & testing. We can all attempt it, but few will commit. Most any of the barrel makers will do a custom spec barrel it just takes $ , commitment & a sh.. ton of knowledge to get it right or the bleeding edge of right. Most people in PB land go about their lives with no regard for the wildcat er's that made their chosen tool possible, If you follow barrel makers the one thing they seem to have in common is obsession with accuracy with alot having roots in benchrest. I wish I had a proper machine shop as I would lock the door & not come out till I had my ultimate air drive rail system.
 
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My quote was "as a mechanical rest takes the potential for human error in aiming during the shot out of the equation" with "aiming during the shot" being the operative point. The shot is not complete until the pellet leaves the muzzle and is on its way to the target. Pulling the trigger and controlling the subsequent shot cycle without disrupting your aim is the most difficult part of shooting. That is absent when using a mechanical rest.

But my "common, low life, bottom feeder, low skill, knuckle dragger Neanderthal" suggestion is a moot point, now. So, never mind.
Does this mean the KodiacJac AGN 50 Yard Target Challenge is a go?!!?
 
Tony, could you give us some data as to the average score increase that you have attained by using a 1 piece
This post is NOT about shooting from a bench, it is about PRECISION Benchrest shooting:

1. So if any monkey can set up their rifle on a sled and shoot good groups , then you can borrow 1 of my sleds and we can watch you spank @thomasair butt, I will gladly send a banana with the sled for free.

2. The individuals who are the best at shooting off bipod and bag shoot PRS and NRL22, so you have absolutely no need or reason to enter a Precision Benchrest competition with a bag and bipod.

3. Once you have won some major PRS/NRL22 events then go for the Mammoth Sniper Challenge. Win this and all us monkeys will eat a banana in your

This post is NOT about shooting from a bench, it is about PRECISION Benchrest shooting:

1. So if any monkey can set up their rifle on a sled and shoot good groups , then you can borrow 1 of my sleds and we can watch you spank @thomasair butt, I will gladly send a banana with the sled for free.

2. The individuals who are the best at shooting off bipod and bag shoot PRS and NRL22, so you have absolutely no need or reason to enter a Precision Benchrest competition with a bag and bipod.

3. Once you have won some major PRS/NRL22 events then go for the Mammoth Sniper Challenge. Win this and all us monkeys will eat a banana in your honor.
Lol. Why would i need to barrow your rest?? Have my own.. And like i said u ARE NOT SHOOTING YOUR RIFLE ... Its set up and untouched in a rest. Thats not competing .. that a piece of equiment doing 75% of the work for you. So just admit it that most of you all would suck without it.. And thomas said it wouldnt matter if they are real shooters already it wouldnt make a differnece lol. So u must be a trained monkey. go eat the banana. But hey if you are native to the New England area or i would be happy to set up a friendly competition..I Live on a farm with all the land to set up and shoot how ever you want. whomever wants. bring your gear and we can have a shoot out.. Shoot your way. Shoot mine.
I get it. to each there own. But a giant shooting aid isnt winning in my opinion.
Thats giving you a edge cause you suck. If you are all such great shots then why use em??
Its just my opion. I shoot just about everyday weather its hunting on the property or plinking around.
 
Excluding the product showcase/exhibition matches like PA Cup, RMAC, and EBR (ie, focusing on actual benchrest in the sense of what's being discussed here)......

True benchrest seems to be an outlier in the "shooting sports." And this is an outside-looking-in view because I'm not a benchrest guy. All of the other shooting sports that come to mind involve a very visceral interaction between the gun (or bow) and its operator. A large part of success in shooting sports typically relates back to that physical interaction. That "muscle memory" if you will. From my non-benchrest background and mindset, holding the gun when it's fired is the very act of shooting. "Shooting a gun" and physically handling it during that fired shot are one and the same, again, for a non benchrest guy like me.

Benchrest, in contrast, appears to be an obsession with answering the question of how damn precise and accurate can this piece of equipment be? ("Piece of equipment" being the projectile launching device.) And that obsession with precision goes so far as to take the handling of the "gun" while it fires completely out of the equation. To the point of removing shoulder pieces and using sleds on ball bearings, etc. Essentially whittling away the parts of a gun that us non benchrest guys feel are integral parts of what makes a gun, a gun.

Minimizing the influence of the weakest link (the human) of the equation in that obsession with precision doesn't make it wrong. But what that looks like sure makes it hard for a non benchrest shooter to reconcile what they know as "shooting a gun" with what's happening at an N50 match by one of the guys at the top of the leaderboard.

Benchrest mentality seems to have transcended the desire to be holding/shouldering the gun when it goes off.

Hopefully that came across how I intended. I'm not trying to belittle benchrest shooters or their methods. It's just another way to enjoy/pursue precision. A VERY different one than many of us that are used to shouldering a gun.
This post sets the context perfectly!!!!!

As some one who is obsessed with Precision Benchrest, I don't expect PRS, NRL22, 6400, NRA High Power or any other non Precision Benchrest organization to change their rules and add a class that would allow my 1-piece Mechanical Rest.

I stay in my own playground.

I am also fascinated by the technology developed by these other competitive shooting groups.

I have a 22 caliber RAW HM1000X in a MPA Pro Matrix Chassis (developed for PRS NRL22) running an Extreme Long Range Competition developed 50 caliber bipod on the spigot and using a PQP Mechanical rear rest for IBS 50 & 100 yard group shooting. And I love it.

We all have the ability to enjoy shooting and shooting what we enjoy.
 
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Id nearly bet mike could outshoot him and his bag/bipod, offhand, standing beside the bench. This guys trolling. End of the day, rules are the exact same for everyone playing. Dont like the rules, find another game to play, or better yet, start your own game.
Bring it on. lets do this. I'm not trolling. im making valid points you disagree with. But if u read the whole thing this is clearly a discussion on my opion not a argument .right or wrong at the end of the day a sled is not shooting.. If your going to compete then compete.. Real shooters lol.
But i kinda did make my own game by upsetting people with a opinion lol.
 
Precision BR is not just about the rifie. It's about refining the entire system which includes the bullet, rest, bags, etc.

Every person that has never competed in precision BR will grossly overestimate their ability to be competitive in the game.

The number of times a shooter will hold in the center of the bull over the course of a 75 shot precision pellet match is overwhelmingly zero.

Many of the guys at the top of the BR game were once champions in other shooting disciplines that require all the rifle skills that so many ignorant guys seem to think we don't possess.

Mike
 
Lol. Why would i need to barrow your rest?? Have my own.. And like i said u ARE NOT SHOOTING YOUR RIFLE ... Its set up and untouched in a rest. Thats not competing .. that a piece of equiment doing 75% of the work for you. So just admit it that most of you all would suck without it.. And thomas said it wouldnt matter if they are real shooters already it wouldnt make a differnece lol. So u must be a trained monkey. go eat the banana. But hey if you are native to the New England area or i would be happy to set up a friendly competition..I Live on a farm with all the land to set up and shoot how ever you want. whomever wants. bring your gear and we can have a shoot out.. Shoot your way. Shoot mine.
I get it. to each there own. But a giant shooting aid isnt winning in my opinion.
Thats giving you a edge cause you suck. If you are all such great shots then why use em??
Its just my opion. I shoot just about everyday weather its hunting on the property or plinking around.
Does this mean your going to shoot the KODIAKJAC 50 Yard AGN Target Challenge because I am in!
 
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im making valid points you disagree with. But if u read the whole thing this is clearly a discussion on my opion not a argument .right or wrong at the end of the day a sled is not shooting
I'm about to head to the embroidery forum to find the ladies using sewing machines and challenge them to a hand stitch-off.

Thank you for the inspiration.
 
Ww1I'm about to head to the embroidery forum to find the ladies using sewing machines and challenge them to a hand stitch-off.

Thank you for the inspiration.

I'm about to head to the embroidery forum to find the ladies using sewing machines and challenge them to a hand stitch-off.

Thank you for the inspiration.
Damn man, my wife read this and laughed so hard she nearly peed herself. I so love her laugh, thanks for making my day.

She texted this to my sister in-law who quilts and has won judged events and they are both now on the phone cracking each other up over adult men referring to each other as "monkeys".

Thanks again for making my day.

They now have my niece involved who has some of her cross stitch pieces in galleries and they have concluded that "trained" in reference to the human male is an oxymoron and an insult to monkey's.

Their laughter is awesome!
 
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I'm about to head to the embroidery forum to find the ladies using sewing machines and challenge them to a hand stitch-off.

Thank you for the inspiration.
Not even a good analogy.. Nice try tho .. Glad i could help your inspiration lol.. Tell gram i been waiting for my dang quilt embroidered ' SLEDS SUCK ' lol.