Issue I see with that is TOO MANY Non AAFTA shooters adding there three cents worth into such a thread
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RAW HM1000 Adjustable Butt Plate?
- Thread starter Bramezy
- Start date
There’s good news and bad news. The bad news is this topic is way past the “passing discussion” phase. It's a proposal that has already been submitted to the BOG. And the BOG intends to vote on it before the start of next years FT season. The good news is they have passed the news about proposed rule changes to the match directors of the member clubs. This is a new and positive development that they are asking for input before voting, especially since Hunter class isn’t well represented on the BOG. The real question is the logic behind the request and how we should really define the classes. EVERY class of FT (even WFTF) was created as a hunting simulation game. Therefore I think naming a class “Hunter” was a mistake. The beauty and challenge of the class is to range find without massive magnification. I personally think the magnification should stay at 16X or even go back to 12X. It would be a positive thing for those that truly embrace this challenge. These attempts to make this class about simple, inexpensive, and stock equipment will only kill the class and kill a ton of enthusiasm for FT. If there needs to be a limit on the butt attachments, make it 2, 3 or even 4” from the center to a line between the ears (1” was proposed). Let everyone experiment with fitting the rifle to their body and improving their shooting comfort without going overboard with something that goes over the shoulder or wraps all the way around your arm. Now then, what do we do with those that want extra magnification? The simple solution is to allow bucket and sticks in the open class. They open class is already dying. Participation is almost non existent. No one can buy straps anymore. Open should be what the name suggests, Open to anything allowed in any other class. Why would the bum bag and straps guys feel threatened by an old guy on bucket and sticks that wants to use more magnification? Leave the “magnification challenged” class alone and keep it growing at the rapid pace it has been. We can also save and grow the open class at the same time.
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First off I agree.
You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.
IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.
It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.
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makes sense.Issue I see with that is TOO MANY Non AAFTA shooters adding there three cents worth into such a thread
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i say why not! just name it "to sexy for limiting anything" class.First off I agree.
You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.
IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.
It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.
i jest.
But without the nonsensical humor, the sport of field target has to adapt to accept new equipment, just like when we take that same new equipment into the field. I fully support smaller KZ's, afterall, we don't want it to be easy... the only easy day was yesterday.
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What I think a lot of hunter shooter don't realize or actually do ... Is get off there seat and onto the ground or a bag when visual or wind conditions dictate it is the better position to utilize. And at times the use of shooting sticks does not fit the situation either having one to resort in using a knee for support. In Hunter class you can do this or any combo staying within gear restrictions of the class already.First off I agree.
You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.
IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.
It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.
The idea of opening up optics power for Hunter, Or adding seats & sticks to open "kInda" ends up in the same place outside the support gear afforded to open shooters ( Slings , Jackets, Lap rests and Butt hooks ) can't be used in hunter if it went that way
I know sure as the sun rises if either of these two combinations were to happen the "Class" which ever it was would be absolutely the most utilized at AAFTA sanctioned FT events !!!
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I agree that there is a very vocal minority begging for the magnification increase. However I don’t see it as a complete inversion. There will be defections for sure, but my estimation is around 25%, at least here in Ohio. This year we’ve had right around 45 individuals shoot hunter pcp and probably 20-25 regulars. We already have 3-4 former hunter guys that have unofficially been shooting an unlimited class that they created. But I just don’t hear the bulk of the hunter shooters asking for changes, even when magnification increases are mentioned. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong, but I’d be happy if the change was the reason for growth in the sport. Heck maybe I’d even consider shooting open too. But let’s just leave the Limited (ie hunter) class alone and don’t try to restrict and rule them to death.First off I agree.
You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.
IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.
It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.
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Were talking in circles here now for 10 years on this subject ...
Lets say we don't change Either Hunter or Open rules ..... BUT have Freestyle become a class ?
RESULT would be OPEN would near instantly DIE a sudden and guarantied permanent death !!
Leaving 2 classes, Hunter as it sits now and Freestyle allowing ( As suggested by many ) a Free for all of any and all aids & optics of existing AAFTA classes. * I don't think with Big X factor optics available that range finders should ever be allowed tho.
Most sense w/o upsetting the existing OPEN shooters would be adding Freestyle and let the crumbs fall where they will on open class surviving or not on its own merits of participation as time moves along.
It's good to know the AFTA is discussing the Hunter Division Butt pad to DEFINE it, but I really hope they consider some basic fitment adjustments. I'm long,lanky and very few stocks fit me. I need a bit of cant and alot of height. Wings don't matter to me, just proper fit.
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Discussed at the Nationals was the depth from the base to how far the wings could protrude. One inch seemed most reasonable, though certain areas allow two inches.
Keep pushing and we will have slightly curved rubber butt plates as the your rifle, most likely, came with
We will see what the BOG can come up with. Especially with a dearth of hunter representatives
Keep pushing and we will have slightly curved rubber butt plates as the your rifle, most likely, came with
We will see what the BOG can come up with. Especially with a dearth of hunter representatives
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Allowing for comfort and fit should definitely be factored into any rule. The part that defies logic is the argument by those proposing the rule is that it’s intended to limit participants to what they would use to hunt. I don’t know about you but I’ll hunt with what ever fits best and is most comfortable. It’s stupidity to assume that because many new rifles come with a nearly flat rubber butt pad that everyone should be restricted to that.
then there’s the other concern that the rule will make some OEM equipment illegal to use. This the butt piece that mac1 provides with their rifles. It can’t adjust under 1” so the new rule will prevent me from using a rifle designed specifically for FT. Well can’t use it unless I go buy something to replace the butt piece. Let’s hope they compromise at 2”or more.
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USFT being a "Hunter" class gun is itself debateable, when considering the intent behind the creation of Hunter, from those that were around for it.
And just to clarify, just in the last few months I finally gave in and reluctantly swapped scopes to make my USFT Hunter legal.
Owning and having shot a USFT quite a bit, I see it as a very specific niche gun. That niche being sitting on a bumbag and shooting field target the way it started.
All of this serves to illustrate that Hunter is something very different now than what it was originally intended to be.
I'm in Hunter class now, specifically because nearly everybody left Open class in my local matches and I felt silly being in a class of 1 or 2 at a match. I made this decision after being the lone Open class shooter a couple times. And I've been shooting general use "Hunter" spirit of the class type guns. Never felt quite right about using the USFT, until recently. As I've seen the shift to more and more field target niche rigs in Hunter, I pretty much made the decision that go me into Hunter in the first place (an "I guess I'll play too" mentality).
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Would it make a difference if I told you my rifle was a mac1 hunter? I get why you connect a mac1 with “traditional“ FT. But I don’t see any rifle as restricted to any one class. If you ask Mike to make you a Thomas for hunter pcp it looks and performs exactly like the gun he makes for Open. All I know is I asked Tim for a 20 Ft Lb gun for hunter pcp and that is what I got with it. I don’t have first hand knowledge of what Hunter class was originally intended to be, but if you allow it to evolve into something else for nearly a decade you shouldn’t attempt to force everyone to go backwards. It’s not fair to people who have spent a lot of money on equipment (with no rule restricting them from doing so) to tell them they now need to buy a traditional looking gun to be able to participate. Unless of course you’re ok with losing a lot of shooters.
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You seem to have missed the part where I said I just made my USFT hunter class legal too. My hesitation to do so was because the USFT is a true target gun.
The friends I queried that that have been involved in field target practically since inception and were around to see the addition of Hunter class tell me that Hunter class was added to give guys without target rifles a place to play. A place for sporter-style guns. A place where the same gun and scope used in the squirrel woods could also be used to play the field target game.
And you are certainly accurate in that there are no rules restricting true target guns from playing in Hunter class. That's why I mentioned the spirit of Hunter class versus the actual AAFTA rules.
I personally didn't want to make my USFT a Hunter class gun because I don't feel it's fair to the guys shooting sporters to have to compete against the USFT.
And here's the BUT .....that spirit of letting Hunter class be the place for the newcomers and the hunting folks to come play is long gone. So, I when in Rome I suppose.....
Hunter has become another place for high end target rifles and expensive scopes. So, kick ass with that USFT and don't feel bad about doing it since you'll be shooting against other FT-niche target rifles. Because that's what Hunter class is now. (Maybe feel a little bad if you're kicking butt against guys using hunting rigs.)
(My USFT is a straight-gripped "Hunter" version too).
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I shot a USFT for the first two years I shot any rifle. And this in hunter class. Mine cam from Steve’s wife with a slightly curved aluminum butt plate. I added some foam to keep it from slipping.
I do not understand the argument that bigger wings make shooting more comfortable. Use some foam and / or anti slip material and you would be amazed at the “comfort “ that antii-slip material can bring to the table.
I do not understand the argument that bigger wings make shooting more comfortable. Use some foam and / or anti slip material and you would be amazed at the “comfort “ that antii-slip material can bring to the table.
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I caught the part about you deciding to use your USFT in Hunter class. Welcome to hunter class BTW. The only reason I haven’t shot mine in open class is the same reason you are switching. I was gearing up to give open a try a year or two ago. But I decided I would rather be 4th out of 20 than 1st out of 2. For FT, I don’t think anyone should feel a target rifle has an advantage. What is a target rifle anyways? How do we define that? These days a Red Wolf costs more than my mac1 and is just as accurate and has just as good of a chance of winning. It may look more “traditional” but those using them are at no disadvantage. If we want to have a class for sporters and entry level guns it needs to be a new class and use retail cost to restrict it.
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I like at least a small peg on the top of the butt "pad." From what I've seen discussed for the new Hunter butt-hook rule I'll be fine without needing to mess with anything. A bottom wing doesn't do much for normal bucket and sticks shots but can help for standing shots if the gun is long and heavy.
Funny thing is that the true butt hooks like those used by the WFTF'rs are used more as a thigh rest than a butt hook. The WFTF crowd use them as a clever way to get around the rule of no thigh rests. The do this when they're sitting in the dead-man/folded up position. They're not doing anything illegal, but I find it humourous that the lower butt hook section is sitting on their thigh, not under their arm/in their armpit.
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Yep, Red Wolves, Thomas's, Ghosts, USFTs, etc. And then throw some serious glass on there and you're very far ($$$) from a squirrel hunting gun.
And yes, Hunter class being for hunting guns and newbies is a ship that sailed long ago. I was just dragging me feet in accepting that.
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I can fully agree that butt hooks and long/multi segmented wings do not have a place in Hunter division. I've been shooting WFTF this season and didn't find the long wing helpful, so I shortened it. I do also agree that the angles and length of the adjustable butt need definition, but removing cant adjustment of the butt doesn't sit as well. Many rifles now have a 3D adjustable butt, like the FX Crown or a Daystate Redwolf. I hope the BOG takes this into consideration.
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