How far can an airgun be modified?

How far can an airgun be modified before it can no longer preform properly/efficiently?

As a designer by trade (retired) I learned long ago that products are typically designed to a specific set of parameters to achieve a particular performance. It's kinda like the "aim small, miss small" thing.

As an example, some products are very specific (like a 10 mm wrench) that do their designed task very well. Others (like an adjustable wrench) can do a range of tasks adequately. Then you have similar products (like ViseGrips or pipe wrenches) that can accomplish the task (here I'm using a 10 mm bolt as an example) but do the job poorly.

Wrenches have a small window of functionality to work. Other products can have a wider window between to little, too much, and optimum.

So in a PCP, things like the bore volume, plenum capacity, transfer port, and valve/hammer/spring are all carefully designed by engineers to a specific FPE performance.

In my preferred caliber (.22) that would (typically) be 30-33 FPE for standard power PCPs; 45-50 FPE for high power PCPs; 65-75 FPE for bench and slug guns.

Purchasing airguns for their optimum performance is the reason/excuse I have so many. 😉

For discussion, say that a PCP platform is optimized for hunting and was designed for 50 fpe. It would be ideal for heavy .22 caliber, light .25 caliber projectiles in 25-35 grain weights.

This (finally 😁 ) brings me to the question:
How far can a PCP be modified before it can no longer preform properly/efficiently?

I'm using everybody's favorite loved/hated caliber swappable, uber adjustable PCP, the FX Impact as an example ( I have a MK2).

We've seen FX tweek the Impact platform (by our insistence) from a typical 30 FPE pellet gun (MK1) to a 50 plus FPE slug gun in the MK4 by making design changes.

So what happens (to the performance) when someone takes a MK1 and doubles the power to shoot .30 caliber slugs or castrates a MK4 to shoot .177 pellets at sub-12 FPE ?

I think that the further you get from the design's intended performance, the less efficient it will be and the more trouble will be found.

IMHO, setting up an Impact MK4 for sub-12 performance is like removing 6 sparkplugs from a 8 cylinder engine. It's going to run rough, don't complain about it.

Agreed, there are people shooting heavily modified .177 caliber MK4s and getting incredible groups at 100 meters. It can be done - but is it a good idea?

As an old guy who is sensitive to mechanical things, I prefer to buy the right tool for the job rather than misusing/abusing one. Springers in .177 and .20 are great low power airguns, in larger calibers PCPs work very well at high power levels. Are we getting confused?

Anyway, does any of this make any sense to you?

What do you see as "normal" in airguns, where does it cross the line to "extreme"?

...Done rambling, have a great weekend eh!

Cheers!
 
My experience has been that the simpler platforms can accept a deeper, not necessarily broader, set of modifications. The best example being the AirForce utility gun platform.

The more complex platforms are limited as their parts are designed to perform specific functions interrelated with the other parts. Changing those relationships are generally done with OEM controls and settings.

Basically if you want to do the modification yourself, simple platforms. If you want the fine control available at the start, not requiring hardware modification, complex platform.
 
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I think I understand the intent of your question and to an extent, I agree.

However you are looking at this logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth. I think many times with a hobby, the process of figuring out how to get a specific result is where much of the enjoyment and even obsession is. Is it always a good idea from a mechanical or financial standpoint? No, not at all.

I do what I consider to be mostly light modding, but have at times delved into what some may call extreme. At one point, I had 3 SPA M10's. All in .22 caliber. When I got done with them, I had one in .35 putting out around 115fpe, one in .30 putting out 75fpe and another that shoots arrows. None of it was 'needed' as I already had similar in all those configurations, but I got a lot of satisfaction in making those guns something they werent really designed to be.

So in short, 'is it a good idea' is a question that is answered from ones own point of view.
 
I think I understand the intent of your question and to an extent, I agree.

However you are looking at this logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth. I think many times with a hobby, the process of figuring out how to get a specific result is where much of the enjoyment and even obsession is. Is it always a good idea from a mechanical or financial standpoint? No, not at all.

I do what I consider to be mostly light modding, but have at times delved into what some may call extreme. At one point, I had 3 SPA M10's. All in .22 caliber. When I got done with them, I had one in .35 putting out around 115fpe, one in .30 putting out 75fpe and another that shoots arrows. None of it was 'needed' as I already had similar in all those configurations, but I got a lot of satisfaction in making those guns something they werent really designed to be.

So in short, 'is it a good idea' is a question that is answered from ones own point of view.
The limits as to what can be done expand with the simpler platforms, as you so clearly describe.

-- Matt
 
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How far can an airgun be modified before it can no longer preform properly/efficiently?

Anyway, does any of this make any sense to you?

What do you see as "normal" in airguns, where does it cross the line to "extreme"?

As far as the owner wants to that it serves their purpose.

No, none of your post makes sense to me :rolleyes: .

Normal is again whatever a person wants to do with their air rifle that suits their purpose be it shooting paper targets in their basement at 6 fpe or hunting big game with 2000 fpe. Whatever is mechanically possible and is used in a legal and ethical manner.
 
I think I understand the intent of your question and to an extent, I agree.

However you are looking at this logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth. I think many times with a hobby, the process of figuring out how to get a specific result is where much of the enjoyment and even obsession is. Is it always a good idea from a mechanical or financial standpoint? No, not at all.

I do what I consider to be mostly light modding, but have at times delved into what some may call extreme. At one point, I had 3 SPA M10's. All in .22 caliber. When I got done with them, I had one in .35 putting out around 115fpe, one in .30 putting out 75fpe and another that shoots arrows. None of it was 'needed' as I already had similar in all those configurations, but I got a lot of satisfaction in making those guns something they werent really designed to be.

So in short, 'is it a good idea' is a question that is answered from ones own point of view.

Agreed, totally!

I also explore the boundaries of "what if" to identify where those boundaries are ...and for the fun of it. 😁

I guess that my post is more from the perspective of reading about people making serious modifications to PCPs without understanding that there are boundaries (possibly dangerous ones), complaining when things go wrong, and dissing the product & manufacturer when they violated the design limitations.

Yeah, I look at things logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth... that was my job for my whole career. Think that that helps in keeping a realistic and reasonable perspective on expectations.

But sometimes it is good to just go nuts 🤪

Cheers!
 
How I read it was that at what point does the mechanical design complexity overcomes the possibility of user modification.

Which is a good point, look at the modern automobile engine. At one point in time any shade tree mechanic could perform a plethora of modifications. A modern fuel injected, computer controlled system has a limited range of modifications. Due to complexity and interrelationship most are replacement units for the existing control systems.

-- Matt
 
Agreed, totally!

I also explore the boundaries of "what if" to identify where those boundaries are ...and for the fun of it. 😁

I guess that my post is more from the perspective of reading about people making serious modifications to PCPs without understanding that there are boundaries (possibly dangerous ones), complaining when things go wrong, and dissing the product & manufacturer when they violated the design limitations.

Yeah, I look at things logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth... that was my job for my whole career. Think that that helps in keeping a realistic and reasonable perspective on expectations.

But sometimes it is good to just go nuts 🤪

Cheers!
I wont say 'most of us', but I would venture a guess that some of us dont have the background to know WHERE those boundaries are, myself included. That said, I use the pucker scale when I've modified guns. If I get to butt pucker factor 4, I stop...haha
I've seen some jenky mods out there and folks doing things that I'd never consider. Dont know if they have the knowledge to know limits or they just got lucky.

These days, I'm far less inclined to modify to anywhere near that pucker factor and would rather work on efficiency. That or I'll start with a platform that is more suited to my 'needs' and then work from there, usually working downward. Case in point, I had the bright idea I 'needed' a .177 slug gun and so picked up an AF Condor in .177 for that purpose. Rather than try to up the power to max, I ended up turning down the power significantly and now am working on finding the proper slug. Not modding, per say, but you get the idea.
 
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Agreed, totally!

I also explore the boundaries of "what if" to identify where those boundaries are ...and for the fun of it. 😁

I guess that my post is more from the perspective of reading about people making serious modifications to PCPs without understanding that there are boundaries (possibly dangerous ones), complaining when things go wrong, and dissing the product & manufacturer when they violated the design limitations.

Yeah, I look at things logically, taking into account efficiency, design and so forth... that was my job for my whole career. Think that that helps in keeping a realistic and reasonable perspective on expectations.

But sometimes it is good to just go nuts 🤪

Cheers!

Like a 4 bolt main, Chevy small block boared to 380 and supercharged for 700 HP?

Worked great in my 77 Nova on the quarter mile for three seasons.
 
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Well, I suppose any given platform (pcp) is initially limited by port size and valve dwell. Once you max those out, you'd be limited by barrel length. When barrel length is optimized for max power with port size and valve dwell, but you want more... It'll be time to increase pressure. When you max out port size, valve dwell, barrel length and pressure... Yet you want more... Going up in caliber will be the next option. Eventually the platform will grow so much and long you'll have to mount it to a truck to be mobile, Lol.
 
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Airguns are no different than most mechanical things. My winter car is an Accord. When I take it on a trip, and I like to drive fast, there is a max speed where the car is happy. Probably 75mph. Now in the summer I take my 300+hp Camry and it coasts along at 90mph. The Accord will do 90 no problem, but it’s not harmonically happy there. When a guy owns and modifies a ton of PCP’s, from crappers to quality guns, you develop a feel for when they are no longer happy. Oh they will do it, but the gun is no longer in it’s zone. So I have personally changed my approach with airguns. With every platforms engine and barrel length, I now operate in the comfort zone. If I need more, it’s add barrel length or sell the gun. Life is much simpler this way. I don’t try to do what a 700mm guy does with my 600mm. Or what a 600mm does with a 500mm. The hot rod side of this industry won’t make a dime off me and I no longer spend hours in the shop machining stuff for a few FPS.
 
It's WIDE OPEN only limited by the mechanical limits of the machine it is, as retrofitting a new heart, lungs or what ever else fits and it still works your Game !!!
The "As-Too" working better or worse is another conversation to what i am reading as the OP's question.

As one who works in the modification realm and gone VERY wild retaining the "It is Better" very little is seen as too much IMO.
 
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