22 or 177 for hunting at 15 yards with sub 12 FT/LB air rifle?
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The wound channel is extremely relevant. Put to scale how would you be doing with a hole like that through your body cavity? There's no energy there to create a nervous system collapse that kills.
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Wow ,a lot of bs here. Opinions are not facts. How about this: it won't be mattering what you use if you don't hit the correct kill zone , then it won't matter if it is a .177 or .22
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Glad someone said it ^^^^Wow ,a lot of bs here. Opinions are not facts. How about this: it won't be mattering what you use if you don't hit the correct kill zone , then it won't matter if it is a .177 or .22
You don't need penetration, you need blunt force trauma. At 12fpe a .177 wadcutter will make as much of a mess as a .22 diablo, and be just as accurate at the ops 15y. I don't think he's said what he's planning on killing yet, but for what it's worth....
For small birds (inc pigeons) squirrels/ rats at 15 y I'd forget head and heart shots and disconnect the spine at the base of the skull. Same size kill zone as 'just behind the eye' but a neck shot disconnects the nervous system, so there is no kicking or flapping, they drop where they stand, they losr the ability to breath, and the shot can be taken from every angle. I take the same approach with deer too under 150 (excluding face on shots so meat isn't ruined) as they can still cover some ground following a heart shot.
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I've had several squirrels flop around like they were hit in the brain when the hole was in their neck, not their head. I have no idea if deer do that.
Blunt force trama is not a killing mechanism with guns. We either directly end the brains connection to the body of we cause blood loss sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. A wadcutter punches a bigger hole in a pest somewhat like it does in paper. So the target bleeds out a little quicker but depth of penetration will be less. No free lunch.
Airgun projectiles are similar in velocity to handgun projectiles. After several well publicized bad experiences the Alphabet org did research and their report can be found on line. I think it is a great resource for those wanting to understand killing of animals with relatively low velocity projectiles. No need to have uninformed opinions.
Blunt force trama is not a killing mechanism with guns. We either directly end the brains connection to the body of we cause blood loss sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. A wadcutter punches a bigger hole in a pest somewhat like it does in paper. So the target bleeds out a little quicker but depth of penetration will be less. No free lunch.
Airgun projectiles are similar in velocity to handgun projectiles. After several well publicized bad experiences the Alphabet org did research and their report can be found on line. I think it is a great resource for those wanting to understand killing of animals with relatively low velocity projectiles. No need to have uninformed opinions.
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I was a squirrel hunter for decades, ground squirrels; I used a .22 rimfire solid,had those experiences, changed my ammo to hollow points plus took better aim;did not change my rifle, and never had that problem again.
Handgun projectiles do not come in .177. If you were hit with a .44 mag or a .22 going the same speed,which do you think would cause the most damage?
Shooting small animals is not about bleeding out.
Wadcutters leave a clean hole in the paper. They are good for small games because of the blunt force and sometimes the expanding pellets, which create a bigger wound channel.
We disagree; your experience is different from mine.All good,it helps others.
We use what we know works for us; when someone asks what we think they should use, I tend to use blunt force.
Handgun projectiles do not come in .177. If you were hit with a .44 mag or a .22 going the same speed,which do you think would cause the most damage?
Shooting small animals is not about bleeding out.
Wadcutters leave a clean hole in the paper. They are good for small games because of the blunt force and sometimes the expanding pellets, which create a bigger wound channel.
We disagree; your experience is different from mine.All good,it helps others.
We use what we know works for us; when someone asks what we think they should use, I tend to use blunt force.
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I think at 15 yds it becomes personal preference. Me, I like 22 because it is easier to load lol…
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^^^^^ THIS^^^^^ Energy kills nothing. Tissue damage is what kills. A fast ball has way more energy than a broadhead from a Bow. I know which one I'd much rather get hit with.
Honestly squirrels are tough. You need to head shoot them if you want them DRT. You can body shoot them with a 22lr and get some run offs. Accuracy over firepower. This is the oldest argument. Nobody ever wins it.
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The large study I mentioned studied a lot of data to come to the conclusion that animals expire two ways, blood loss or interruption of the nervous system. They specifically looked at "stopping power" which I relate to comments on blunt force trama. They looked at the data and concluded stopping power is a myth.
I am not against wadcutters or expanding projectiles. I've looked for a wadcutter for my guns but all I've tried were inaccurate. But for me to use them I want more than the minimum fpe in the gun because I know penetration will decrease. My Caiman is tuned to shoot H&N 21 grain hollow point slugs at 920 fps right now. I've tested them and I know I get enough penetration plus I get expansion. So I know they will be deadly. I am only against projectiles that will reduce penetration when the gun is a bit challenged from a penetration standpoint.
I am not against wadcutters or expanding projectiles. I've looked for a wadcutter for my guns but all I've tried were inaccurate. But for me to use them I want more than the minimum fpe in the gun because I know penetration will decrease. My Caiman is tuned to shoot H&N 21 grain hollow point slugs at 920 fps right now. I've tested them and I know I get enough penetration plus I get expansion. So I know they will be deadly. I am only against projectiles that will reduce penetration when the gun is a bit challenged from a penetration standpoint.
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I have a bird feeder 17 yards from my office window and I kill 99% of my stuff from there. I have shot squirrels and rats with 10fpe 177 and 22. I’ve also shot 177 and 22 call up to 21 and 32 fpe respectfully. And 25 cal up to 60fpe
I aim for the head of every squirrel, body for rodents smaller.
The fear of pass through is inconsequential for me. I’ve been doing this long enough to know that pest will move, or I’ll pull a shot; however infrequently.
Every shot I take I I know there is a chance it will not hit its mark and hit the backstop. I look first if the pest is in a zone I can take a shot and hit the backstop first, only then will I put the crosshairs on it. I have the fence behind my feeder 3 panels of fence thick, behind that is an oak tree.
177 or 22 is a personal choice, I like both. I prefer 177 because I love the little ice picks they are.
Consteuct a good kill zone with a good backdrop and enjoy the hunt.
I aim for the head of every squirrel, body for rodents smaller.
The fear of pass through is inconsequential for me. I’ve been doing this long enough to know that pest will move, or I’ll pull a shot; however infrequently.
Every shot I take I I know there is a chance it will not hit its mark and hit the backstop. I look first if the pest is in a zone I can take a shot and hit the backstop first, only then will I put the crosshairs on it. I have the fence behind my feeder 3 panels of fence thick, behind that is an oak tree.
177 or 22 is a personal choice, I like both. I prefer 177 because I love the little ice picks they are.
Consteuct a good kill zone with a good backdrop and enjoy the hunt.
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Placement is more important than caliber and more important than than fpe to a point. Placement becomes more important as power decreases. But at some point a gun won't work even with the best Placement. I don't try to figure out the minimum. Because I know from experience I do not have the discipline to pass on iffy shots. I want enough penetration and a big enough hole the target will expire with any reasonable Placement. In my opinion 12 fpe is too low for me. May not be for others. But if I had to use it for squirrels I'd use a 177 and try to wait for brain shots.
I know 177 domed pellets kill squirrels fine but they don't kill as quickly as 22s and 25s tuned to higher power. I've started testing 12.5 grain slugs in my 177 but I am unlikely to use them much if at all in my yard. They carry too far. I would like to have a wadcutter that is accurate because their bc is terrible but they reportedly kill well. Seems like just what is needed for backyard pesting.
I know 177 domed pellets kill squirrels fine but they don't kill as quickly as 22s and 25s tuned to higher power. I've started testing 12.5 grain slugs in my 177 but I am unlikely to use them much if at all in my yard. They carry too far. I would like to have a wadcutter that is accurate because their bc is terrible but they reportedly kill well. Seems like just what is needed for backyard pesting.
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I think that kinetic energy is important, but it's only one factor out of many. I always bring up momentum as a factor because I think it is overlooked and when it is taken into account a lot of what people have observed and referred to as "stopping power"starts to make more sense. It also disproportionately affects penetration and helps explain why big, slow cartridges like the 45-70 have such strong reputations as bear stoppers.
I think the fastball is also an excellent analogy. A 95 mph fastball has about 95 fpe or a little less than a .22lr and we can all easily visualize the difference in impact and penetration between the two.
I managed to find this video of where a ballistics torso is shot with a baseball at 150mph. The first half of the video is insipid, but the actual wounds caused by the baseball are brutal.
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We both saying the same thing. Yes the Momentum you speak of comes from energy. But momentum is effective because it creates more penetration and thus tissue damage. Your point is exactly mine. A big rock thrown at a bear might have more energy than the 45-70 but I'd rather use the 45-70 for obvious reasons.
There's a million ways to look at this. These discussions are eternal. Most people are fast in their beliefs so there's little point in arguing. I appreciate your point because it confirms mine.
Be well
Ron
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I agree that energy (fpe) is an imperfect way to look at Airgun effectiveness. The velocity is squared making it overly important. In the spreadsheet I keep for shot strings of my airguns I also calculate Taylor Knock Out and Chuck Hawks killing factor. The former is just mass times velocity (=momentum) times diameter. The killing factor is energy times sectional density times area. Both these deemphasize velocity and look at projectile size more. Chuck Hawks is a prolific writer and you can Google up his article easily.
I often calculate the area of the projectile as a percentage of the animals cross section and I test to determine penetration in wet paper. It makes sense to me that bigger holes are necessary for bigger animals and the holes have to be deep enough.
I often calculate the area of the projectile as a percentage of the animals cross section and I test to determine penetration in wet paper. It makes sense to me that bigger holes are necessary for bigger animals and the holes have to be deep enough.
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This is way more science than necessary. Put the biggest hole you can in the right spot and be done with it. Stuff like this is often over analyzed. I've done it myself. I bought a 22 caliber Hw50 (13 fpe) specifically for gray squirrels inside 20 yards because I had too many runners with a 177 Hw30 (8fpe) and too many runners and pass throughs with a 177 Hw50 (12fpe). I learned I wasted my money on the 22 Hw50 because I needed to head shoot the squirrels to eliminate runners. At that point it didn't matter what size pellet went through its noggin. My 177 Hw30 was easier to shoot accurately than either Hw50 and to this day has the most squirrels under its belt. Accuracy over firepower. Every time.
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I agree about kinetic energy overemphasizing the effect of velocity. It obviously does play a role as can be seen by extremely high velocity projectiles that have an explosive impact that momentum can’t explain. The problem as I see is that we in the airgun community tend to grade everything by kinetic energy so we’re getting a one dimensional view of what their impact will be.
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The only runners I had with my P35-25 when it was tuned to 32 fpe were hit in the front of the chest and the pellet stopped under the skin behind a rear leg. The other 16 were DRT. 8 of the 18 were body shots so 6 of the 8 were DRT. Hitting a shoulder with a powerful enough pcp seems to drop them about as effectively as a brain shot. I've had no runners in 10 squirrels with my P35-22 which is also at 32 fpe. Five of its 10 squirrels were body shots. But if I wanted or needed to use a 12 fpe gun I would go for brain shots.
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I have killed a ton of squirrels with a 12 fpe. 177. Head shots and neck shots DRT. Shoulder shots are interesting in that some are DRT while some will flop or run a bit. Why, I am not sure. A .177 with precise accuracy out to 20 yds does the job. I have also head shot raccoon and possums out to 20yds in the head, aim just at the bottom of the ear, all DRT. I have Passed on groundhogs with the .177 but have killed a fair amount of groundhogs out to 40 yds with a .22 at 20.0 fpe. All one shot kills. The neck shots have all went about 10 to 15 ft before expiring. Head shots DRT. All spring guns. All dome pellets, whatever is the most accurate. I think those that run away and are lost are fringe hits. It will happen unfortunately.
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