You’re not using firearm Barrel brushes or firearm lubricants ? As these don’t play well with airgun barrels and Orings respectively
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Other Just how much must I pay for "Accuracy" in a PCP gun?
- Thread starter EdCaffreyMS
- Start date
The "MS" on Ed's title is for Mastersmith by the American Bladesmith Society
If you love knives, Checkout the knives made by a mastersmith!
Ed's knives are Beautiful! Here is a link
Sorry for going off topic Ed, but as a fellow smith, i appreciate the craftmanship of your knives
Mike
If you love knives, Checkout the knives made by a mastersmith!
Ed's knives are Beautiful! Here is a link
Sorry for going off topic Ed, but as a fellow smith, i appreciate the craftmanship of your knives
Mike
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I have 2 regulated reveres and both would head shoot a squirrel @50 1st shot. They are 1 of the best lookinng air rifles in my opinion but not the most powerful. 177-18 fpe. 22-29 fpe
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so I followed this thread because I have similar questions about guns, I'm definitely not interested in tuning.. and I might be wrong but the main question is what shoots good out of the box at 50 yards similar to a 22 LR??
now I might be lucky because I have several air guns that do that..if I can do my part..
reading the answers about tuning and different assortment of pellets, Yes pellets matter but only so much, either the weight is not right unless you tune, or it's fine..I too shoot powder guns and I compare to that like the OP..
please someone else chime in because I don't really want to suggest my guns since I might have been lucky to get the good one..
but seriously most of the replies would convince me that Airguns are trash or toys..
I'd like to suggest watching shooter1726 I think
.. his name is Rick and he is either a very good marksman with his shooting skills or good video editing..I believe he is good.
I'd put a link here but I don't have it and don't know how
he does a lot of trick shots with a huge assortment of guns..
Mark
now I might be lucky because I have several air guns that do that..if I can do my part..
reading the answers about tuning and different assortment of pellets, Yes pellets matter but only so much, either the weight is not right unless you tune, or it's fine..I too shoot powder guns and I compare to that like the OP..
please someone else chime in because I don't really want to suggest my guns since I might have been lucky to get the good one..
but seriously most of the replies would convince me that Airguns are trash or toys..
I'd like to suggest watching shooter1726 I think
.. his name is Rick and he is either a very good marksman with his shooting skills or good video editing..I believe he is good.I'd put a link here but I don't have it and don't know how
he does a lot of trick shots with a huge assortment of guns..
Mark
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The Huntsman was my 1st quality rifle and 10 years on I still love it. Although I own much more expensive rifles, the Huntsman is my go to everyday gun. Quality engineering, beautiful walnut stock. It will give pleasure for the rest of your life.
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Tiapan veteran and your good to go.
I just pulled my version 1 .22 standard out from a 4 month rest these are my first 3 shots 30y breeze.
This thing puts a smile on my face every time I shoot it.
Also a very simplistic pcp easy to tune .
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I'm in the habit of recommending, to the newly and uninitiated, rifles that are above all else, simple, rugged, reliable, low maintenance, time tested & CONSISTENTLY ACCURATE. I call these SOOB or straight out of box guns. They run the gamut from unregulated to regulated, kind of pricey to definitely pricey, slug capable to pellets only. What influences me more than anything in categorization in OWNER SATISFACTION LEVEL. IMHO this type of gun will create a positive, relatively trouble free 1st experience for the newb. Some examples are, FX Royale platform (.177, .22, .25 & .30), Taipan Veteran series, Daystate Huntsman, Air Arms S510, etc. There are others that elude my brain at the moment. These guns have been around quite a while for a reason. Not easy at all to find a lot of (if any) negative remarks about these guns. Owners usually are "hooked for life" & most won't part with them. To me, this type makes the most sense for a 1st experience. BTW, my 1st real, mag fed PCP was a Marauder. In almost 2 years of trying make it right its accuracy NEVER lived up to my expectations. With the guns I own now every box is checked & I'm a VERY happy camper! (FX Bobcat, Royale, Boss in picture) NOTE: There's a Royale (.25) in classifieds RIGHT NOW (seller Mikelo123).
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I'm going to put in a good word for Umarex Zelos. I recently got one, the only other PCP I have is a Umarex Origin.
I got the Zelos because of the rave reviews, a lot saying it wasn't pellet picky.
I've shot about 100 pellets through it so far and it's been great. My main activity is shooting house sparrows at 30-35 yards; gets 'em every shot.
MSRP is $599, I found one on sale for $423.
I can't afford to spend much more on an airgun and at this point I don't need to, love my Zelos.
I got the Zelos because of the rave reviews, a lot saying it wasn't pellet picky.
I've shot about 100 pellets through it so far and it's been great. My main activity is shooting house sparrows at 30-35 yards; gets 'em every shot.
MSRP is $599, I found one on sale for $423.
I can't afford to spend much more on an airgun and at this point I don't need to, love my Zelos.
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I have less experience and airguns than EPG (and less 200s on 30 yard challenge targets) but I do not totally agree with the "why" part of his recommendation of unregulated guns. They may be more dependable on first shot accuracy but every time one of my 5 regulated airguns has had a problem with first shot low velocity I tweaked the tune and it went away. So it could not have been a leak. At least in my guns. The "fix" is to increase the hammer spring slightly. The normal rule of thumb is to tune to a velocity 3-5% below the peak for a given regulator setting. 5% below pretty consistently gives me a low velocity first shot. When that happens, I just give it a bit more hammer spring until it stops happening. Typically 3% below works fine. So I think it is normally a tune thing.
I also found that the best pellet for targets in my P35-177, H&N Baracuda FT, is a bit shifty on POI for the first shot. H&N Baracuda Match work better. But I do not think that's a unregulated/regulated issue, it's a matter of testing the first shot of your guns over several days. I do it on my one unregulated gun too.
You cannot mess up the hammer spring setting for the regulator setting when you do not have a regulator so it's still a regulated gun issue. It's just often pretty easy to avoid.
Most of my guns are regulated mainly because they were built in China and China seems to use regulators in recent history. Turkey still makes a lot of unregulated guns but they are too heavy for me. Pretty stocks, however. Maybe I should try one. They both certainly work.
I also found that the best pellet for targets in my P35-177, H&N Baracuda FT, is a bit shifty on POI for the first shot. H&N Baracuda Match work better. But I do not think that's a unregulated/regulated issue, it's a matter of testing the first shot of your guns over several days. I do it on my one unregulated gun too.
You cannot mess up the hammer spring setting for the regulator setting when you do not have a regulator so it's still a regulated gun issue. It's just often pretty easy to avoid.
Most of my guns are regulated mainly because they were built in China and China seems to use regulators in recent history. Turkey still makes a lot of unregulated guns but they are too heavy for me. Pretty stocks, however. Maybe I should try one. They both certainly work.
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My most accurate out of the box guns (maybe with a little tuning to balance reg and hammer):
DRS tactical .22 600mm. AEA 18gr and 22gr pellets.
Uragan 3 .22 600mm. Same pellets.
Wildcat mk 3 compact, 22. AEA 18gr and JSB Hades.
They’ll give a .22 pellets size hole at 25y and a ragged hole at 50 most of the times. Your true enemy is wind though if you shoot outdoors and to 50 and beyond. Really gotta pick your pellets though AND find the one a specific gun likes (and the speed)… makes a hell if a difference.
P.S.: I have a Dreamline classic in .25 in the classifieds that is shooting great, can be had well below 1k
DRS tactical .22 600mm. AEA 18gr and 22gr pellets.
Uragan 3 .22 600mm. Same pellets.
Wildcat mk 3 compact, 22. AEA 18gr and JSB Hades.
They’ll give a .22 pellets size hole at 25y and a ragged hole at 50 most of the times. Your true enemy is wind though if you shoot outdoors and to 50 and beyond. Really gotta pick your pellets though AND find the one a specific gun likes (and the speed)… makes a hell if a difference.
P.S.: I have a Dreamline classic in .25 in the classifieds that is shooting great, can be had well below 1k
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Nice shooting TimeRabbit.
I’ve got a .22 Taipan Vet2 - love it.
Tell ya what, I’ll bet your 1st 3 shots won’t look like that in Connecticut, when you put it away in late September when its 85 degrees and you take it out in January when its 24 degrees.
Original poster is powder burner guy. He’s new to PCP and seems a bit frustrated with PCPs - as and he wants “powder burner simplicity” to accuracy.
Unregulated Daystate Revere .22 seems closer to putting a bullet in the chamber and pulling the trigger. Doesn’t have any obvious adjustment - just insert pellet and pull trigger.
-Ed
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If you want accuracy in the first shot you need a non regulated rifle or a Sidewinder (not traditional looking rifle).
Very best quality and accuracy: Daystate, Revere (.177 or .22) or Wolverine (.30 Cal).
Almost all regulated rifles hit low the first two shots after filling or inactivity. Only regulated rifle I trust on the first shot is the Sidewinder.
A trick with regulated rifles is to shot two shoots to "something" to "warm" the rifle before starting the hunting session.
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Wind affects a lot accuracy. The heavier the projectile the better.
Another super alternative is a Vulcan 3 700 mm in .25 Cal. Almost no change in first shot.
You order that one from Tony at Talon Tunes (Now Talon Airguns) and you will not have to tune it at all.
Another super alternative is a Vulcan 3 700 mm in .25 Cal. Almost no change in first shot.
You order that one from Tony at Talon Tunes (Now Talon Airguns) and you will not have to tune it at all.
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My Prod velocity is at least as sensitive to temperature as my regulated guns. I think powder burners have reduced velocity in lower temperature too, however. I don't measure velocity a lot on my regulated guns at this point but I have had all of them tuned to have a first shot within the spread of a 10 shot string. I don't find it difficult to do. I guess that hammer spring setting could give me less accuracy but I have not experienced that. It is at least worth a try for a gun with a low velocity first shot to increase the hammer spring a small amount. It has worked several times for me. When I noticed it the first time on my P35-22 some very experienced members suggested a cause, I think they said "valve lock". I don't understand the mechanism or term but I do remember what to try when I see it.
If you get convinced that you "need" a given velocity for best accuracy, say 880 fps, and have the gun set at a regulator setting that will produce 920 fps then you want to reduce the velocity 5% with the hammer spring. And your first shot may be slow. Increasing velocity to 890 fps has in my experience eliminated the low velocity first shot. But if accuracy at 890 is not acceptable, the regulator could be reduced a tad so you don't have to back off on the hammer spring as much. There is always more than one way to get to a target velocity with a regulated gun.
I regularly trust all my airguns to place a pellet at the point of aim regardless of how long they have been sitting. And they do it. I've shot targets that way but a little warm up seems to help me and possibly the gun too. I have a target where I shot a few shots, like maybe 4, after the gun set at least 12 hours. The first shot went at one bull, the second at another, etc.. I wanted to know that the first shots went where they should. This is that target. I shot it in November of 2023 on three successive days. Each gun sat overnight and then I fired three shots at 3 different targets for each gun. So the upper left target is 3 first shots with the P35-22. The second and third shot from that gun are below in the left hand column. The 25 is in the middle and the 177 is on the right. There are fliers on the 2nd and third shot with the 22 and two of the three went lower and right a little bit but for hunting I think all the shots would have worked from the 22 and 177. The 25 was a bit all over the place. It got better later when I added an aftermarket plenum and started shooting 34 grain JSBs. The 177 groups are not as good but placement is more consistent for the 3 shots, I think. This target may not mean so much to others but it convinced me that two of the three guns were tuned OK and could be trusted to placed their first shot well. Before I did this test, however, I thought the 25 was great. I killed 18 squirrels at ranges of 15 to 35 yards or so with very few misses and no squirrel escaping injured. At longer range it's accuracy would have been a problem but it was OK for what I was doing with it, I think. But a lot of the reason I liked that P35-25 so much is I like the ergonomics.
If you get convinced that you "need" a given velocity for best accuracy, say 880 fps, and have the gun set at a regulator setting that will produce 920 fps then you want to reduce the velocity 5% with the hammer spring. And your first shot may be slow. Increasing velocity to 890 fps has in my experience eliminated the low velocity first shot. But if accuracy at 890 is not acceptable, the regulator could be reduced a tad so you don't have to back off on the hammer spring as much. There is always more than one way to get to a target velocity with a regulated gun.
I regularly trust all my airguns to place a pellet at the point of aim regardless of how long they have been sitting. And they do it. I've shot targets that way but a little warm up seems to help me and possibly the gun too. I have a target where I shot a few shots, like maybe 4, after the gun set at least 12 hours. The first shot went at one bull, the second at another, etc.. I wanted to know that the first shots went where they should. This is that target. I shot it in November of 2023 on three successive days. Each gun sat overnight and then I fired three shots at 3 different targets for each gun. So the upper left target is 3 first shots with the P35-22. The second and third shot from that gun are below in the left hand column. The 25 is in the middle and the 177 is on the right. There are fliers on the 2nd and third shot with the 22 and two of the three went lower and right a little bit but for hunting I think all the shots would have worked from the 22 and 177. The 25 was a bit all over the place. It got better later when I added an aftermarket plenum and started shooting 34 grain JSBs. The 177 groups are not as good but placement is more consistent for the 3 shots, I think. This target may not mean so much to others but it convinced me that two of the three guns were tuned OK and could be trusted to placed their first shot well. Before I did this test, however, I thought the 25 was great. I killed 18 squirrels at ranges of 15 to 35 yards or so with very few misses and no squirrel escaping injured. At longer range it's accuracy would have been a problem but it was OK for what I was doing with it, I think. But a lot of the reason I liked that P35-25 so much is I like the ergonomics.
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No! That was one of the first things I researched before buying my first Springer..... and then double checking before that the first PCP gun arrived..... and am glad I did! Otherwise I would have whipped out the bronze bore brushes and the CLP, and very like would have wrecked a brand new gun. That is a good "catch" though....and I suspect a lot of noobies like me would make that mistake.
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That is something I've noticed with these "starter" level guns that I'm shooting....but it seems they need at least 6 or more shots before they settle into anything remotely resembling "accuracy". Even the Notos, which I consider the most accurate outta all my guns. Thank you for the "tweaking" lesson/explanation. Well put and understandable to a newer level PCP shooter.
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Suggest you learn all you can about your first gun. Don't be in a hurry, and then if you feel it's in your best interest look for some else.
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Keep the advice on guns coming! Every gun that anyone has mentioned, I've looked up, and it seems, with the exception of the Zelos, every gun that folks are calling "accurate" are +/- about $1,500. Hard for me to swallow that one....at least YET.
If anyone likes custom knives, and might wanna trade an "accurate" air rifle, preferably of traditional style, for a custom knife...that's a possibility. I'm one of less than 200 ABS Mastersmiths in the world, and I make everything from daily carry straight knives and folders to very "high end" collector pieces. Just a thought. you can find my website in the signature block and see what I do. If you're interested, we can certainly talk about it.
In the meantime, I'd like to say a HUGE THANK YOU for all the input so far. I think I've learned more via this thread than in all the online research I've done... and that's been considerable. I have to admit that I have a Love/Hate relationship with YouTube..... likely because I have Bladesmithing students who show up for a class, and everything they've learned has been from "YouTube University"...... and I always seem to spend the first day of class UNLEARNING them, before I can teach them anything.
If anyone likes custom knives, and might wanna trade an "accurate" air rifle, preferably of traditional style, for a custom knife...that's a possibility. I'm one of less than 200 ABS Mastersmiths in the world, and I make everything from daily carry straight knives and folders to very "high end" collector pieces. Just a thought. you can find my website in the signature block and see what I do. If you're interested, we can certainly talk about it.
In the meantime, I'd like to say a HUGE THANK YOU for all the input so far. I think I've learned more via this thread than in all the online research I've done... and that's been considerable. I have to admit that I have a Love/Hate relationship with YouTube..... likely because I have Bladesmithing students who show up for a class, and everything they've learned has been from "YouTube University"...... and I always seem to spend the first day of class UNLEARNING them, before I can teach them anything.
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I'm going to make this simple: Get a Crosman Challenger. It can constantly do close-to-one-hole groups. I shot it around 30 yards; I do not know how accurate it is out to 50 yards. It is around $700 or so. Airgun Revisions is a good place to look. It is easy to fill and has adjustable stock.The Huntsman is a great rifle, also. I also use Crosman or Benjamin pistols,they are very accurate also. The 1701 ,1720 and Maruder pistol.
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