100 Yard Benchrest - Luck or Skill?

[stoti]

I understand Mikes point completely, I get it. I just disagree. I think too much of this discussion is focused on luck. If luck plays such a role with these targets, why are the winners always top tier shooters, the best of the best? Because they know how to read the wind, adjust, know where to hold, when to pull the trigger and when to wait. Yeah, maybe there's a little luck involved, that's life. I think it would be cool to see a new target too, for the purpose of Centercut's challenge but I really doubt many of the competitors that frequent these big events regularly think it's necessary to change because they think they got beat by luck. 

Stoti

 

[Centercut]

I’ll answer that one. I’ve never heard even one competitor tell another that did better that he lucked out... not once. I’m not even sure anyone even thought it and just didn’t say it. If you got beat, you got beat. Plain and simple... Go practice more so you do better next time.

 

[stoti]

That's easy for you to say Mike...you were the WINNER!!!! 



Stoti

 

[thomasair]

Hi Mike,

The targets for 50y BR are just fine. There was a lot of thought put into them when they were made. I’ve shot 250s on them. It won’t be long before it happens in a match. Now that it has been accepted by the World governing body as an official air rifle BR category...it will see more action.

Mike 

 

[sendler2112]

There are a few names that rise to the top year after year. It's an international event requiring travel so some shooters might not have a chance to attend every year even if they were previously top 10. The scores have consistently improved over time. When the winner approached 240 they moved it out from 75 yards to 100 yards. There was also an issue of which flight you were seeded in where the winner always came out of the first morning flight due to lower wind at dawn. They changed this by having semi finals to qualify where the top of each group advanced regardless of the absolute score and the finals were shot all together at the same time.

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[thomasair]

Some of you guys can’t seem to understand that any amount of luck that can be removed from a supposed precision game is a good thing. The more the better. The other air rifle sports that have established governing bodies and decades of history have already figured it out. You could learn from them if you were willing.

You keep trying to make it about someone insulting your sport. 

Mike 

 

[thomasair]

Sendler...those are all good things....but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement.

On a quick scan, I only see a couple guys that have made it to the top 5 twice. Lots of new names every year.

And 240 is a heck of a long way from 250....and orders of magnitude away from a 250 25x. There was no reason to move the target out further...nobody was close to mastering it.

Mike 

 

[stoti]

I don't think anybody is insulting our sport. I just don't agree with you. You seem to think it's all luck while I think reading wind is a skill, Maybe we should shoot indoors too or make everyone use the same equipment so nobody has any "advantage". Where does it end. This is a different format, that's a big part of why so many like it. It's not all formal and rigid. 

Stoti

 

[Centercut]

You keep trying to make it about someone insulting your sport. 

Mike

I for one don’t think you’re insulting the sport. But even if others think so, they’re not the only ones that get offended by suggestions or questions about other Airgun disciplines. FT went a little defensive about questioning what scope ranging has to do with marksmanship or why prone position wasn’t really allowed. I think it’s the nature of the beast when someone criticizes another’s sport they do get a little offended. Not just 100Y BR, far from it... I could criticize 25M BR. What’s the point when everyone shoots 250? Shouldn’t the targets be made to score outwards vice inwards or moved back ten yards so it’s not always a battle of the Xs?

 

[thomasair]

Stoti...if you think I’m saying 100y is all luck...you have not been reading my posts.

Ill say it again in a short way. There are elements of luck that can and should be removed.


Mike

 

[bubblerboy64]

I’ve read thru this and I’m confused. I’ll admit I’m far from the sharpest knife in the rack but I don’t understand why this has gotten so complicated. 
Seems like the original premise was the idea that the BR targets should be enlarged to more realistically accommodate the real world capability of the air rifles. Some how this was then going to eliminate the luck factor? 
I don’t see how enlarging the target would have any affect on the ranking other then to move EVERYONES score up. The best shooters will still win just as before and what ever luck there may or may not be will still in play.
Is it really any more complicated then that? 

 

[thomasair]

Yes...it is more complicated than that, but I’ve explained it too many times in print to do it again.


The good guys will still be at the top, but there will be a finer separation for the top guys by eliminating some of the luck due to the 10 ring being smaller than it should be.

The intent of well orchestrated events is to remove as much luck as possible to determine the most true winner.

Mike

 

[AirSupply]

Could you at the moment ever think this sport could be an Olympic discipline? It wouldn’t have a chance because there is a total lack of consistency in the results. If you ran an EBR competition 3 days in a row I couldn’t imagine anyone could finish in the top 5 on all 3 days. It’s not a sport yet. Of course the winners will be one of the top tier shoots. The others are dropping pellets, shooting the wrong targets, not shooting one of there own, refilling with air at the wrong time ect, ect, ect. 

There are no systems or consistency in the way it’s developed yet. 
I still really enjoy following it but not because I think the skill of the best shooter will shine through and he’ll win but Im interested in the equipment. It’s a manufacturer’s sport. I hope the equipment will develop further and the sport progresses further but it is incomparable to an Olympic discipline. 
I’m not a competitive shooter but have been a professional sportsman all my life and I can see similarities in these discussions to my sport. 
My opinion is don’t try to reinvent the wheel. Listen to the most experienced and professional people that care to take the time to try and teach you something. 

 

[AirSupply]

In the last 5 years of competition at 100y of the 25 top 5 finishers only 4 have ever managed to be in the top 5 twice! Only one of the 4 managed to win.
Ted the most successful EBR competitor with a win and a 5th place in 5 years. 

 

[igolfat8]

Perhaps it's as simple as boiling it all down to the name of the event? This is not typical Bench Rest that powder burners are familiar with. These are called "Extreme" BR events pushing the envelope of shooter skill sets and equipment. Sure luck plays a small part but shooter skill, knowing your equipment and reading wind are overwhelming factors that may tip the scales in favor of several skill sets over luck..

 

[Centercut]

I’d recommend looking at the past couple of years at 100 yards also at RMAC and PAC, not just EBR. All 3 are at 100 yards with at least 100 shooters competing on similar targets.

Just two examples

Justin Welch won 2019 PAC, 2nd 2018 EBR, 5th 2019 EBR, 7th 2019 RMAC and won RMAC 2018 Sportsman Class

Todd Blanchard 2nd 2019 RMAC and 2nd 2019 PAC.

Those two guys probably just got lucky...

You could also look at how many times a top notch shooter like Shane Kellar has finished in the top ten after winning 2017 EBR..

I think we’ve already established that today’s technology can put all 25 shots in the 9 ring. Any shooter that puts all 25 inside the 9 ring will win. Guaranteed. No luck required.

 

[AirSupply]

My point is these high skill sets aren’t repeatable? If a shooter honestly does have superior skills does it only last one year then disappear?
I’m not trying to be a smart ... but if I asked you to rank the best shooters over the past 5 years how would you do that?

 

[igolfat8]

I’m not trying to be a smart ... but if I asked you to rank the best shooters over the past 5 years how would you do that?

Ummm, wouldn't it stand to reason ... by using their stats.

 

[Centercut]

It’s only been the last two years where there has been more than that one major 100Y BR tournament. Also technology has grown by leaps and bounds the last two years compared to 5 or 6 years ago. So look at the past two years. It’s obvious who the #1 shooter is at 100 yards... I just listed him in my previous post. 

 

[AirSupply]

To be fair you would also have to look at who beat them in those events and why. Where they constantly good shoots with great results as well? 
Why wasn’t Todd Blanchard able to win? 
It’s not good enough to train hard and be more skilled and hover around the leading pack and then be unlucky and get knocked off. 
These guys would probably love to see the size of the bull increased to 1 inch because maybe we wouldn’t be saying an obvious great shooter came 2nd twice!