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100 Yard Benchrest - Luck or Skill?

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I obviously meant Justin Welch. :)

My point is the 9 ring is 1.2 inches. Anyone that puts all 25 inside the 9 ring will shoot well over 230 and win. The highest score in current competitions is 225. So fair or not, lucky or not, putting all inside the 9 ring which everyone agrees has nothing to do with luck, will win without a doubt.

To be accurate, your gun doesn’t have to be capable of 1/2 MOA to put all in the 10 ring. The scores are plugged to 0.35. So your gun must be capable of consistent 0.85 MOA to eliminate the so called luck factor.

My point in my OP was that even if there is a very small amount of luck in hitting the ten ring under ideal early morning or late evening little to no wind shooting, when in real world conditions that pales to insignificance compared to your “luck” in guessing how the wind will affect your shot, or not having the wind shift as you are pulling the trigger, or numerous other factors. Anyone that shoots at 100Y with pellets will tell you that last little 1/4 inch “luck” means nothing compared to the possible 3 or 4 inch miss caused by an unexpected wind shift...

 
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This is all semantics. Everyone at any given event shoots the same target. Whether it has a 2" 9 ring or 3". Changing the target size doesn't take any of the "luck" (basic accuracy of the rifle and projectile) out of the equation. It just moves everyone's score up by the same amount. Maybe only to make the airgun shooters feel better about the scores in relation to rimfire so there can be an apples to oranges comparison.
 
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Few years back shooting 1 moa consistent was the Challenge, today we can see that often, and sometimes 1/2moa

To push for 1/2 moa airguns / projectiles is another way to take the "today target luck" , IMO and my take is pushing for that might be better for the whole industry than change the target size

@sendler2112 excellent point too! 
 
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Sendler...you are incorrect. It may be your opinion, and that is fine, but your opinion cannot be backed up with science. If you are unable to see why a tiny 10 and x ring adds unnecessary luck into the equation than you are just ignoring or overlooking the already stated reasons.

Edosan....the problem is that there is actually no organization formed to manage 100y shooting for the benefit of the actual 100y shooting community. The sport has simply not grown enough for someone to care. There is almost no participation at the club level....and the couple clubs that do just make up their own rules and formats, and often targets.


Mike 
 
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Reading comprehension is lost because of biased views, some have not fully understood the question.OK I see another subject matter was thrown into the equation and probably should have been in a separate post=thus original thought got expanded upon .

The mind wants to,but the body interferes,mind body integration is the goal for experts;If the mind can picture all shots gong into a small hole it becomes a better"point of view"....thus better scores.Called fixation if you want,point of AIM...

This was Not the original topic.the original was more like close is good enough,and it is.
 
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I'm with Thomasair 100% on this one. The reason is not science, but math. Statistically, you want the range of error as small as possible to remove randomness (luck). Since the gun is only capable of about a 1" group (range of error), you need a larger target to remove some of the randomness. 

Since moving the target closer is probably a no go for reasons of promotion (and ego). A larger target is the only logical solution.

I'm not hearing any good reason why the target shouldn't be enlarged. Just arguments why the current target is "good enough".

Those of you arguing that the smaller target is still fair because everyone shoots the same target shouldn't have a problem with a larger target. Everyone will still be shooting the same (larger) target. The larger target simply provides an improved way to measure shooter skill such as wind reading ability by reducing score randomness. Win/Win.
 
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Mike N, your head must be sore from beating it against the wall. Your whole take on the 100 yd target is fascinating and eye opening.

If I can take a shot at an explanation of what Mike is saying it is as follows.

100 yd bench rest shooting requires incredible equipment and incredible shooter skills. Unless you posses both you will never finish near the top of a competition. Skill gets you into the running, luck plays a significant role in determining the winner. If you and your equipment cannot shoot 250 every time in perfect conditions then some luck is involved in determining your final score. Lady Luck be with you today!

The solution is, as Mike proposed, enlarge the 10 ring to a size that the best equipment can consistently hit. This all but eliminates luck from the equation. Sure every competitor's score will probably increase, but the best shooters will still consistently be at the top,

Jim in Sacramento
 
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I took some ibuprofen so my head isn’t as sore as it was yesterday. ;)

Being a Nuclear Engineer, I’m sure the math works, that’s not really the issue. So let’s assume we all agree that the 10 ring should be enlarged, and all other rings moved outwards. To what would be the issue? Currently it’s at about 0.5 inches plus the 0.35 plug so about 0.85 inches. The 9 ring is currently 1.2 inches plus 0.35 or 1.55 inches. Since Mike N has stated the current state of the art is 1.2 inch 25 shot group, do we move the 10 ring out to 0.85 so the plug makes it 1.20? If not, what is recommended?

Additionally, while that “too small” ten ring induces luck to a small degree, what about the luck required in “predicting” the wind? The amount of induced error with that is far greater than the minor amount from a ten ring 1/2” too small. And to anyone that says that is pure skill I’d say you’ve never shot at Rio Salado EBR or Garth Killpat RMAC ranges... The wind can frequently change as or after you’ve pulled the trigger. If that doesn’t happen to you then you were lucky. 
🍀 

Also, I’d like to know of those voting to change the 10 ring size, how many have competed in EBR, RMAC or PAC 100Y BR? I’m only asking this because I’ve recently had FT questions about what rangefinding has to do with marksmanship and why prone kinda wasn’t truly allowed, and was told to shoot it first a couple times prior to criticizing the discipline. I’m not going to be like that, but I am curious. Not 100Y at your local range at dawn or dusk, but actual in competition with swirling winds that make it hard to hit the 8 ring let alone the 9 or 10 rings... ;) The top score at all three major 100Y BR competitions in 2019 was 225 FYI.
 
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Mike... I totally disagree. I'd honestly like to know what your recommendations are for the new 10 ring and why?. And I always have fun. ;)

PS., what is/was nonsensical about my last post? Nothing that was said was made up or not true... If you're a little butt hurt I apologize, that wasn't my intention. But instead to get the members to think about this topic and comment.

PPS., I actually have AGREED with you! Now we need to figure out what size the ten ring should actually be. It should be as small as possible without inducing any luck into the process. It shouldn't be arbitrary like the current target.

Mike
 
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Mike Bricker

If you take the 0.35 plug and center it over a 0.22" hole you're only gaining 0.13" towards the line of any ring? I'm losing you on your addition to the whole 0.35" thing?

At most take the 10 ring at 0.5" and add half the 0.35 plug to it? So that's a shot that it zeroed at 0.675 away from the 10 ring will hit the line with the plug? Am I right in my thinking?

Wait a minute. I don't know how to put it to words? OK ten ring is 0.5" that means a shot that is 0.25 + 0.175 = 0.425 away from the center of the paper will touch the ten ring line. OK , now I see where you are getting the 0.85" ten ring size from. My dumb a$$ needs a diagram LOL!

Ok then using imaginary 0.85" ten ring now, means a shot that is 0.6" away from the exact center of the ten ring will count as 10 points with the 0.35 " plug. That gives a group that is 1.2" centered over the "X" to make a 50 point group using the 0.35 plug.

I can dig that!
 
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