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100 Yard Benchrest - Luck or Skill?

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100 yards is beyond the scope with a pellet gun for average or slightly below average 100 yard shooters. Still, many of us like the challenge to try and improve. 

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It's beyond the scope of the allowable pellets (according to a pellet manufacturer), but not necessarily beyond the scope of the gun, since their are now airgun slugs (and airguns) made for that purpose.

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True - Unfortunate choice of wording on my part and I certainly do recognize that there are airguns and specialized pellets and slugs that “can” shoot at 100 yards and beyond. That could be a whole separate topic for discussion, and I don’t want to further ( or unintentionally) derail this thread either with opinions on long distance shooting with air guns. Point taken.
 
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No worries, Tommy.

its all about perspective. Rimfire BR is incredibly popular, as you probably know. I guess some of the bigger matches draw 4-500 competitors. They shoot a bullet with a BC of .172 at 50y. Our pellets are maybe around .050. They have 3 1/2 times the wind resistance but they do not hold serious matches at 100y because it moves the game out of the precision category. There are centerfire cartridges that can hold the precision at 100 and beyond, so that is where the precision game goes once you get to 100. I think the BC of a 6mm ppc is around .300. 6 times better than a pellet. In all of the traditional BR games..wind reading is the primary skill needed to do well. 

The problem with a pellet as you can see is that it’s a pile of crap in the wind. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most matches seem to be held at windy ranges. So now the good guys are hoping to get an 8 by holding 12” away from the bull. It’s a lot of Hail Marys going down range. The game cannot be loosely considered precision by anyone that has ever shot or witnessed BR with a firearm.

instead of wind reading...the hose technique is the most popular amongst the top shooting guys at EBR type events. This involves shooting rapid fire at the sighters to get an idea where the pellet is going since they can not reliably determine that otherwise in heavy wind. Once they figure out where the thing is landing they try to put one on record as quickly as possible. Very few are doing any wind reading at all. This process continues until the card is done. I call this the hose technique because if you put a dinner plate out in the yard and was asked to hit it with water from a single quick burst from the hose...it would be very difficult. Now hold the hose sprayer on full and you can walk the spray over and put it on the plate regardless of the wind present. Bigger magazines and multiple air tanks are helpful in utilizing the hose technique.

The other common technique is the gun and run. This simply is shooting quickly and using the last record bull as the sighter for the next bull....making adjustments as necessary. This technique is usually employed after the hose technique until the condition runs itself out. Both these techniques require shot to shot speed as the main element.

Compare this type of shooting to any other BR genre every conceived and you can easily see that it’s a completely different game that requires a completely different set equipment and skills to accel.

Most all of the top shooters in 100y BR would be absolutely lost if the speed element was removed from the event and they were required to use wind reading as their method of finding the center of the bull.

The game is still the game....but it does not resemble any other game with BR in it. If someone aspires to be good at EBR type competition, it does not require that you hone your wind reading skill. You would make more progress by working on your hose technique skills. Are they both skills? Yes, of course. It’s just that the hose technique skill is not applicable to any other shooting sport called benchrest. You won’t see any EBR heroes crossing over to make a name for themselves in Rimfire....not will you see any Rimfire champs coming out and teaching a lesson to the EBR guys.

Mike
 
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Well said. Funny enough, those are the exact reasons I like it so much...
Its exciting, and it’s not the same as other BR.

Like you said, it still requires skill, just in a different form. Single shot guns are at a disadvantage, but it can be won with standard BR techniques as Nicolay demonstrated at EBR 2019. However, most of the time it’s best not to bring a knife to a gun fight... ;)
 
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No worries, Tommy.

its all about perspective. Rimfire BR is incredibly popular, as you probably know. I guess some of the bigger matches draw 4-500 competitors. They shoot a bullet with a BC of .172 at 50y. Our pellets are maybe around .050. They have 3 1/2 times the wind resistance but they do not hold serious matches at 100y because it moves the game out of the precision category. There are centerfire cartridges that can hold the precision at 100 and beyond, so that is where the precision game goes once you get to 100. I think the BC of a 6mm ppc is around .300. 6 times better than a pellet. In all of the traditional BR games..wind reading is the primary skill needed to do well. 

The problem with a pellet as you can see is that it’s a pile of crap in the wind. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most matches seem to be held at windy ranges. So now the good guys are hoping to get an 8 by holding 12” away from the bull. It’s a lot of Hail Marys going down range. The game cannot be loosely considered precision by anyone that has ever shot or witnessed BR with a firearm.

instead of wind reading...the hose technique is the most popular amongst the top shooting guys at EBR type events. This involves shooting rapid fire at the sighters to get an idea where the pellet is going since they can not reliably determine that otherwise in heavy wind. Once they figure out where the thing is landing they try to put one on record as quickly as possible. Very few are doing any wind reading at all. This process continues until the card is done. I call this the hose technique because if you put a dinner plate out in the yard and was asked to hit it with water from a single quick burst from the hose...it would be very difficult. Now hold the hose sprayer on full and you can walk the spray over and put it on the plate regardless of the wind present. Bigger magazines and multiple air tanks are helpful in utilizing the hose technique.

The other common technique is the gun and run. This simply is shooting quickly and using the last record bull as the sighter for the next bull....making adjustments as necessary. This technique is usually employed after the hose technique until the condition runs itself out. Both these techniques require shot to shot speed as the main element.

Compare this type of shooting to any other BR genre every conceived and you can easily see that it’s a completely different game that requires a completely different set equipment and skills to accel.

Most all of the top shooters in 100y BR would be absolutely lost if the speed element was removed from the event and they were required to use wind reading as their method of finding the center of the bull.

The game is still the game....but it does not resemble any other game with BR in it. If someone aspires to be good at EBR type competition, it does not require that you hone your wind reading skill. You would make more progress by working on your hose technique skills. Are they both skills? Yes, of course. It’s just that the hose technique skill is not applicable to any other shooting sport called benchrest. You won’t see any EBR heroes crossing over to make a name for themselves in Rimfire....not will you see any Rimfire champs coming out and teaching a lesson to the EBR guys.

Mike
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Fascinating. I have to say the information contained in these last two or three threads ( EBR Target, luck vs. skill, need a new target ) is invaluable. Probably some of my most favorite threads in the last two years on AGN.

Thanks to both Mike's....


 
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I had many possible comments to make on this thread but they would just start a lot of flames.

I will say that you could give me an airgun that would shoot .10 moa at 100yds indoors all day long and I still would not be in the 100yd finals at EBR. My skill set is just not there yet and I'm fairly sure I don't have enough years left to get there either. BUT, I do enjoy shooting EBR and am happy with the targets as they are. 

There are not enough hours in a day for me to come anywhere near the number of pellets down range that the top EBR shooters are doing in a year in practice. There is zero "luck" involved when a shooter wins EBR.

Hoping we are able to have a 2020 EBR.
 
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I wish Mike would change the name of the thread to actually say what this thread is about...instead of the emotion stirring title it was given. It’s a fact that if you get a 10 on the current target you had some luck on your side. If you are not making the finals, it won’t matter to you anyway. If you’re in the top 10...it mattered.

It’s funny because I know a couple good traditional BR shooters that have competed and done well at the EBR. They all agree that if EBR did triple card finals...it would be extremely unlikely for the same guy that won the first final to do it again. If they did triple card finals where each contestant moved 1/3 of the range for each card like the rest of the BR world....the winner would be far more valid and deserving of the winner title.

The guys I know that have only competed in EBR type events seem to believe otherwise.

The 10 years of history seems are on the side of the former....not the latter.

Top EBR shooters seldom posses skills that would help them in any other BR genre....because EBR is really not like any other BR. It’s called BR which is what creates the confusion for the ignorant....and it attempts to mimic BR enough that the masses think it’s BR....but unlike the rest of BR in the world you don’t have to know how to read the wind to do well at it. Matt Dubber was signed up for the 25m BR Worlds last year in South Africa. He showed up, shot a couple practice cards with his FX, and decided to just shoot some video instead. The guys that watched his practice session said he was not even on the same planet as the rest of the shooters there. 20-30 points down on a single card. How can that possibly be? He’s a top EBR competitor. It’s quite a conundrum for those that don’t understand the difference between EBR and BR.

Matt is a great guy and extremely pleasant to be around...so I am not trashing Matt. I like him a lot. I’m sure Matt could do well in BR with the right equipment and time to develop the different skills.


Based on the current state COVID mandates in Arizona....I can’t see how the event could be done this year. It’s been a bad year for everything.

Mike




 
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I agree that it is a different type event than "official" 25M BR. In this case I take it to mean the shooters are shooting from a bench with a rest of some sort, and not the official definition of "benchrest". Semantics aside, it is different, and to me, that's a good thing. I shoot 25M BR once a month at LDs club in Temecula, so I'm a tiny bit familiar with that format - big solid heavy rests, guns locked in so they can only be moved by turning a wheel or joystick, legions of wind flags, guys shooting without even looking through the scope, only touching the trigger... Interesting? Certainly. Fun? Maybe. As fun as EBR or RMAC? - NOT.

Not sure if its a coincidence or not, but for 2019 the winner of the three big 100 yard events won by enough of a margin that even if a little luck was involved, the three Champions won pretty much outright. The first place finisher was on average 5 points better than the 2nd place finisher. I'm sure its not always like that, but in all three 2019 events it was. I'm sure that none of the 2nd or 3rd place finishers would say that the winner just "got lucky"... Can you win using traditional benchrest methods? Certainly, Ask Nicolay Boldov, winner of EBR 2019. He used a single shot gun and plenty of wind flags. The fact that he is one of the best shots I've ever seen didn't hurt either... ;)

EBR 2019

1st 225

2nd 221

3rd 219

RMAC 2019

1st 224 

2nd 219

3rd 216 

PAC 2019

1st 223

2nd 217-4x

3rd 217-2x

Here is my invitation, or challenge, you decide. For those that haven't shot EBR or RMAC or PAC, come out and see what all the excitement is about. Use the method you're most familiar with, be it 25M BR or the what is it, rapid-fire or water hose method? In either case, come on out and have some fun. And if you're good enough, you just might win...
 
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I’d come to the EBR just to shoot 50y if they formatted it like a real BR match and didn’t use the garbage Orion system for scoring. Rio Salado is a poor range for parity based on bench location alone. Move everybody 1/3 the range for each card, hang the cards on the wall for everyone to see, and allow shooters to protest any card and resolve the protest with a plug...and I’m all in.


Mike 
 
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Here’s a tip for anyone intending to shoot the 50y event at EBR.


The electronic Orion system does not pick up double shot bulls. If you don’t like a particular shot, just shoot it over. You will get the score of your best shot. Everyone in AZ knows this.

The USARB board purchased an Orion system exactly like the one used in Phoenix and asked me to decide if it was worthy of use at a National event. I intended to use my CNC mill to basically shoot holes in the targets at precise locations and see if they were scored properly. I never even bothered with that test because you could scan the same card 5 times and get 3 different scores on average. It gives points to guys, and it takes away from others. If a guy gets shorted a point, he can protest the bull and have it reviewed....however they refuse to use a plug. He may get the point back. The part nobody thinks about is all the guys that got points they did not deserve due to the error. Nobody protests free points. It’s garbage for a supposed precision event....even without the double shot flaw.

Mike 
 
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i bought the Orion system 5 years ago and it was as Mike states could not give the same score to the same target all the time

and each year they said the new system is updated so i bought again each time and each time it was just a little bit better but still not usable

i did this every year because of the updates hoping it would eventually get there and i bought over a thousand of their targets which i now use for practice

and now they don't even support it ? why ?

i shoot a USARB match every week :)

Dick
 
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I feel it’s more luck than skill, I am mainly a short range Br shooter so from my perspective, it is very, very hard to achieve consistency and repeatability at 100yds, Mainly from not being able to read the conditions, for me to be competitive I must “TRY” and eliminate as many variables as I can, which usually is the conditions at 25m I have confidence in my equipment and shooting techniques, but I am constantly trying to get a handle on the conditions and “learn“ What the flags, mirage and temperatures are doing throughout the match or matches so I can learn and apply this to my record bull, card or match. I could not consistently achieve this at 100yd and It got very frustrating and no fun! which in turn led to my decision not to compete at 100yd I only did this one time at the PAcup last yr. but that was enough to honestly know it was not for me, “COVID was also a major factor in this decision“ trust When I say I wanted to really get fully committed to 100yd comp.! I am not saying long range shooter’s are not skillful! Just a 100yd Shoot 3-4 times a yr. is more of a novelty than a true competition? ( it does sell a lot of guns for manufacturers and dealers which I believe is the intent, and nothing wrong with that! ) by the way I’ve had the same 25m gun for over 5-yrs.! And here is a Idea of what wind flags can tell you in just 20ft between 1st and 2nd flag so what does that equate to in 100yds I’m just not a run-N-gun shooter or A fire a 100 sighters and not truly know what they are telling me type of shooter! But I am very much still learning at 25m and that’s competitive and FUN! 
 
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I agree that it is a different type event than "official" 25M BR. In this case I take it to mean the shooters are shooting from a bench with a rest of some sort, and not the official definition of "benchrest". Semantics aside, it is different, and to me, that's a good thing. I shoot 25M BR once a month at LDs club in Temecula, so I'm a tiny bit familiar with that format - big solid heavy rests, guns locked in so they can only be moved by turning a wheel or joystick, legions of wind flags, guys shooting without even looking through the scope, only touching the trigger... Interesting? Certainly. Fun? Maybe. As fun as EBR or RMAC? - NOT.

Not sure if its a coincidence or not, but for 2019 the winner of the three big 100 yard events won by enough of a margin that even if a little luck was involved, the three Champions won pretty much outright. The first place finisher was on average 5 points better than the 2nd place finisher. I'm sure its not always like that, but in all three 2019 events it was. I'm sure that none of the 2nd or 3rd place finishers would say that the winner just "got lucky"... Can you win using traditional benchrest methods? Certainly, Ask Nicolay Boldov, winner of EBR 2019. He used a single shot gun and plenty of wind flags. The fact that he is one of the best shots I've ever seen didn't hurt either... ;)

EBR 2019

1st 225

2nd 221

3rd 219

RMAC 2019

1st 224 

2nd 219

3rd 216 

PAC 2019

1st 223

2nd 217-4x

3rd 217-2x

Here is my invitation, or challenge, you decide. For those that haven't shot EBR or RMAC or PAC, come out and see what all the excitement is about. Use the method you're most familiar with, be it 25M BR or the what is it, rapid-fire or water hose method? In either case, come on out and have some fun. And if you're good enough, you just might win...
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Thank you CC. That is exactly how I feel about 100 yd benchrest shooting and the long range events we now have each year. It is a different sport and I celebrate those differences.




 
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1594752512_5214806055f0dfe008768d4.89337300.jpeg
1594752513_15983833695f0dfe01e62058.93545923.jpeg
I feel it’s more luck than skill, I am mainly a short range Br shooter so from my perspective, it is very, very hard to achieve consistency and repeatability at 100yds, Mainly from not being able to read the conditions, for me to be competitive I must “TRY” and eliminate as many variables as I can, which usually is the conditions at 25m I have confidence in my equipment and shooting techniques, but I am constantly trying to get a handle on the conditions and “learn“ What the flags, mirage and temperatures are doing throughout the match or matches so I can learn and apply this to my record bull, card or match. I could not consistently achieve this at 100yd and It got very frustrating and no fun! which in turn led to my decision not to compete at 100yd I only did this one time at the PAcup last yr. but that was enough to honestly know it was not for me, “COVID was also a major factor in this decision“ trust When I say I wanted to really get fully committed to 100yd comp.! I am not saying long range shooter’s are not skillful! Just a 100yd Shoot 3-4 times a yr. is more of a novelty than a true competition? ( it does sell a lot of guns for manufacturers and dealers which I believe is the intent, and nothing wrong with that! ) by the way I’ve had the same 25m gun for over 5-yrs.! And here is a Idea of what wind flags can tell you in just 20ft between 1st and 2nd flag so what does that equate to in 100yds I’m just not a run-N-gun shooter or A fire a 100 sighters and not truly know what they are telling me type of shooter! But I am very much still learning at 25m and that’s competitive and FUN!
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Great comment. You have a nice setup there in your backyard. I believe I saw those same flags being used at EBR last year and several of them were blown over during the 100yd final. They do have some wind out there. I was there but totally unprepared for what I encountered. I hope I'm a little better prepared for the next one. I have done a lot of long distance shooting with heavy recoiling handguns in competition and I know how frustrating the wind and mirage and dust storms can be but since I started shooting airguns I have an even healthier respect for what the wind can do to a diabolo pellet at short ranges. 100 yards with an airgun is extremely frustrating but fun.


 
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That’s what I was sayIng in a earlier post is long as the condition is consistent and repeatable By verification of sighters! You know when to go for record ( even if it’s a 7mph wind Or more!) at least you know and correct for the shot, and your right that L to R was almost 90’ to my target so a easy Condition To read, I wouldn’t of taken the switch unless I had to because of time or had taken that sighter to give me a “idea” of where it might go? Thanks about the yard! But just don’t look at my target support and cant “not ideal” but works in a pinch 
 
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