I'm trying to decide between a Benjamin 1720T or a Prod. I've gone through all the comparisons of mag vs single shot, price, stock included, etc. I know I have to increase the power on a 1720T or decrease the power on a Prod to have 12 FPE. I'm not very good with Chairgun trying to figure how much pronounced a .22 trajectory is vs a .177. I have a 35-40 shot target assortment on my backyard range that goes from 15-40 yards. I currently am shooting a Maximus tuned to 12 FPE for 30 shots. 12 FPE hits soft enough at 15 yrs not to destroy my targets and hard enough to still knock down targets at 40 yards. It appears to shoot flat enough I can use a dead center hold till 30 yards. At 35 yards I have to aim at the top of the target (3 in target) and at 40 yards a 1 dot holdover. I can knock soda cans off a stump at 50 yards with a 2 dot hold over. I have heard that a .22 at slow speeds has a big loopy arc to it's trajectory. So my question is will a .22 shoot as flat at those ranges or am I going to have a big arc to have to compensate for?
.177 vs .22 at 12 FPE
- Thread starter marquette
- Start date
I would get the 1720T it's a more accurate pistol. Don't even need to up it to 12fpe to shoot 40 yards as-is. If you do decide on upping the power an OEM 0.080 P-Rod TP cheap from Crosman is a simple drop in DIY no other modifications necessary but you will get less shots. You can also drill out the secondary included smaller TP to 0.080 too if you don't need 450-500fps.
Upvote 0
Yes it will be substantially more arced. You are looking at a drop of 5” in .177 versus 9” in .22 at 40 yards (assuming 8.4gr and 14.3gr JSB).
Upvote 0
.22 will have more arc than .177 at any given fps. .25 will have more arc than .22, etc, etc, etc...
Even if you don't know all of the data to put into ChairGun, you can easily use it to see the arc of different calibers at the same velocity and that will tell you all you seem to want to know.
I am no expert on AGs or ChairGun, but I find ChairGun to be an easy tool to use once I know the pellet weight, fps, zero range and scope height. BC makes little difference at short ranges and I have never adjusted "incline" and leave it at 0 (zero).
Even if you don't know all of the data to put into ChairGun, you can easily use it to see the arc of different calibers at the same velocity and that will tell you all you seem to want to know.
I am no expert on AGs or ChairGun, but I find ChairGun to be an easy tool to use once I know the pellet weight, fps, zero range and scope height. BC makes little difference at short ranges and I have never adjusted "incline" and leave it at 0 (zero).
Upvote 0
Here in the uk we are restricted to 12fpe , although this sounds feeble it does offer a few benefits, shot count will be higher, noise will be less both muzzle and target impact and the gun is more forgiving to shoot and more gentle on your targets. The disadvantages are more loopy trajectory, more wind drift and you are not able to hunt at longer ranges or such large quarry.
obviously the .22 traveling at 570fps will be more loopy than a .177 at 800fps but once you learn the hold over both are more than capable of shooting tiny groups at 50yards and when conditions allow I routinely hit golfball sized targets out to 100 yards with both .177 and .22.
If the majority or your shooting is plinking and target work then I would recommend.177 if however if hunting is your thing, particularly if it’s inside or close to buildings then .22 would be my recommendation.
Bb
obviously the .22 traveling at 570fps will be more loopy than a .177 at 800fps but once you learn the hold over both are more than capable of shooting tiny groups at 50yards and when conditions allow I routinely hit golfball sized targets out to 100 yards with both .177 and .22.
If the majority or your shooting is plinking and target work then I would recommend.177 if however if hunting is your thing, particularly if it’s inside or close to buildings then .22 would be my recommendation.
Bb
Upvote 0
Since your shooting is at known distances in the yard, it really doesn't make much difference what you shoot, it's just a matter of using the right holdover. That said, I believe a 12 fpe air gun is better matched with a .177 pellet. In your situation, I see no advantage in using a .22, and it introduces a new variable.
Upvote 0
Have you tried the desktop version of Chairgun?
My smart phone is old and glitchy so I haven't bothered trying either the mobile version of Chairgun or Strelok. From the little bit I've seen of the mobile versions discussed in other threads here it seems like the desktop version is much more basic.
Last time I used the desktop version of Chairgun I was deciding what barrel to put in my Leshiy at my new house so I have those pellet types saved.
The JSB 22 cal 15.89 at 580 FPS/11.87 FPE had an optimal zero of 26.6 yards with a kill zone of 1/2" specified. MPBR was 11.1 to 29.3 yards.(18.2 yards).
The JSB 177 cal 8.44 at 795 FPS/11.84 FPE had an optimal zero of 33.8 yards with the same kill zone. MPBR was 14.4 to 37.0 yards.(22.6 yards)
Note that the MPBR of the 177 is not only 24% longer than 22 but that it also starts out over three yards further.
I also have a P-rod and it generally has a much lower scope position than the Leshiy.
I don't remember how much but a lower scope position has the slight effect of both lengthening the MPBR as well as bringing it in closer to the shooting position.
So you could use pellet weight and scope height to come up with a 1720T that has an MPBR that fits your 15 to 40 yard range pretty closely. If you're not required to shoot 12 FPE you could also control it with pellet speed as well.
For example, plugging in the JSB 7.87 and bringing the speed up to 825 puts the MPBR from 14.9 to 38.1 yards. Same scope height and kill zone.
Disclaimer. I don't claim to be an expert with Chairgun. Also only using the BC's from Hard Air Magazine. Not using my own real world data here but rather just initial results I generated to get general starting points.
Upvote 0
I have both the 1720t and prod and both are around/under the 12fpe mark. I got lucky with my .22 and it is just about as accurate as the .177, for sure not the norm. Like you my shooting in the yard is at known distances so even though the .22 has more drop it makes no difference. The .22 is easier to load depending on your age and eyesight. Both mine have the DonnyFL adapter so noise on both is almost zero. If I had to give a nod it would be the 1720.
Upvote 0
I'll answer your question with a question. Do you really think a .22 at 600 FPS might shoot nearly as flat to 50 yards as a .177 going 800 FPS? That's a lot of velocity difference. I 'd still choose .22 for hunting; however, apparently that's not your priority.
Upvote 0
I'm guessing less chance for a pass through. When I did a lot of ratting inside buildings, I found that 12 FPE .177 would pass through on close shots. After switching to .22 with a 12 FPE rifle I had way less pass throughs. Both .177 & .22 pellets were Crosman Destroyers.
Upvote 0
Assuming you mean less pass throughs on the prey, most experiments have shown that larger calibers are less likely to cause damage to the buildings in case of a miss as well. Assuming same muzzle energy, of course.
Upvote 0
For ME it is not about that,177-.22 it was about multi shot, single shoot....I have both.For you the 1720T is the only choice.
1720T better for your needs=.177 better for your needs.That was easy,LOL.
1720T better for your needs=.177 better for your needs.That was easy,LOL.
Upvote 0
This has already been answered by Scouty and cea1960 , less chance of pass through, less likely to damage buildings. It also is less affected by wind drift and less likely to be knock off course by a twig or even a blade of grass. I feel it my obligation to dispatch an animal as humanely as possible. I don’t hunt at long distances so power and speed are not necessary, the loopier trajectory of the .22 over the .177 is not factor at closer ranges but IMO the .22 packs a harder punch.
Bb
Upvote 0
Hunting is not an issue. I haven’t hunted squirrels or rabbits in years. Grouse and pheasant but that is PB guns.
What does MPBR stand for?
I didn’t even know there is a desktop version of Chairgun I’ll have to check that out.
I never thought about wind drift between the 2 calibers. When I’m shooting paper at 30 yards I’ve been surprised by how little it effects my offhand shooting but my goal is to keep 30 shots inside a 2 inch black circle. Not a very high standard I know. Maybe if I shot off the bench more I would be more aware of wind drift
a quick explanation of why I picked 12 FPE I first tuned my Maximus to about 8 FPE with 40 plus shots. At the range I sighted in at 25 yards. Then moved to 40 yards and did some readjust and felt pretty proud of my self. Then I stabbed a set of spinners in the ground at 40 yards. 3 shots later I finally figured ou I was hitting the spinner by the paint chipping off. The movement was underwhelming at best. I kept moving the spinners closer until they would swing with authority. Then using Pyramid Airs calculators I determined the energy needed to swing the spinner. Then I moved that energy level to 40 yards and calculated what the energy needed to be at the muzzle. I think it actually was 11 something but I rounded to 12 FPE. 12 FPE will drive a 8.44 go pellet flush in a pine 1x3 at 40 yards. So that’s how I picked 12 FPE. It’s not to stay under a legal limit or for competition it’s just what works for me.
What does MPBR stand for?
I didn’t even know there is a desktop version of Chairgun I’ll have to check that out.
I never thought about wind drift between the 2 calibers. When I’m shooting paper at 30 yards I’ve been surprised by how little it effects my offhand shooting but my goal is to keep 30 shots inside a 2 inch black circle. Not a very high standard I know. Maybe if I shot off the bench more I would be more aware of wind drift
a quick explanation of why I picked 12 FPE I first tuned my Maximus to about 8 FPE with 40 plus shots. At the range I sighted in at 25 yards. Then moved to 40 yards and did some readjust and felt pretty proud of my self. Then I stabbed a set of spinners in the ground at 40 yards. 3 shots later I finally figured ou I was hitting the spinner by the paint chipping off. The movement was underwhelming at best. I kept moving the spinners closer until they would swing with authority. Then using Pyramid Airs calculators I determined the energy needed to swing the spinner. Then I moved that energy level to 40 yards and calculated what the energy needed to be at the muzzle. I think it actually was 11 something but I rounded to 12 FPE. 12 FPE will drive a 8.44 go pellet flush in a pine 1x3 at 40 yards. So that’s how I picked 12 FPE. It’s not to stay under a legal limit or for competition it’s just what works for me.
Upvote 0
Sorry, that was me. It stands for Maximum Point Blank Range. Using the 1/2" kill zone as an example, I believe it means the first point your projectile will hit 1/4" below your Optimal Zero all the way to the second point it will drop again to 1/4" below your Optimal Zero. In between that first point and Optimal Zero will be the apex of your trajectory which will be 1/4" above your Optimal Zero. So in an otherwise perfect scenario your projectile will hit a 1/2" target anywhere inside of the MPBR.
So another way to extend your MPBR is to increase your kill zone. If your spinners are 1", for example, you might consider your kill zone to be 3/4" or even 1". That will make your MPBR longer.
Here is the sight I used to download the desktop version of Chairgun.
https://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Windows-PC/Hawke-ChairGun-Pro-FREE.html
Since you're not limited to 12 FPE I'd play around with Chairgun and different pellets in both calibers.
I'm not sure what to recommend for a scope over bore height entry. My P-rod is scope-less at the moment but I think I was able to get 1" scopes to clear the magazine at around 1.6" scope over bore height. Emphasis on I think. I assume you could go lower than that with a single shot tray or with the 1720T. And obviously higher is always possible.
Chairgun may not use the acronym MPBR. They might just call it PBR.
Upvote 0
Hmm. I'm really surprised here. Yes a .177 has a higher velocity, but it is also lower weight ... nevertheless, I see two people at least here recommending a higher caliber .22 for doing less penetration than a .177, obviously given the same pellet.
Can you guys supply any links on that? Not trying to needle you, just surprised. One of my favorite youtubers, Aaron Cantrell, pests with .177 and seems extremely meticulous about liability and damage, moreso than any other youtuber I've ever seen, and by quite a lot. And he cautions just the opposite. I'd like to feel more secure knowing, all relevant factors being equal, whether .177 or .22 is really safer in general and in particular when it comes to pesting around vulnerable areas.
Can you guys supply any links on that? Not trying to needle you, just surprised. One of my favorite youtubers, Aaron Cantrell, pests with .177 and seems extremely meticulous about liability and damage, moreso than any other youtuber I've ever seen, and by quite a lot. And he cautions just the opposite. I'd like to feel more secure knowing, all relevant factors being equal, whether .177 or .22 is really safer in general and in particular when it comes to pesting around vulnerable areas.
Upvote 0
The OP has since stated this is not for hunting so I don't want to weigh down his thread too much but here is one previous thread. I have not watched the video embedded in the thread and am not sure what it goes into.
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/max-fpe-for-shooting-indoors-at-a-farm/#post-369353
I believe over on GTA somebody posted pictures of tin shot with 177, 22 and 25 wadcutters at the same distance and same muzzle energy.
Despite the greater retained energy of the 25 is did the least damage to tin. As I recall it was a DIY cast 25 wadcutter. 177 did more damage than 22.
The name Aaron Cantrell sounds familiar. I'll try to track down some of his videos and see if any deal with any tests.
I've never conducted my own tests but believe I have both 177 and 22 wadcutters. I have access to plenty of metal roofing.
Upvote 0
I don't know about all that. The math doesn't lie. Other things equal, a lighter pellet at X velocity will have the same penetration as a heavier pellet at Y velocity. But, it shouldn't matter. You should judge the safety of your shot based on the background, assuming the pellet goes through. If you start relying on ballistic tables, it's a losing game.
Upvote 0
The 1720T as-is shoots 650-750 fps with 8gr-10gr pellets. That alone is just under 10fpe. The P-Rod 0.080 TP upgrade (or drilling the smaller ID TP larger up to 0.080-0.089 to get it closer to 12fpe) is totally optional but Will in turn get less shots.
It's second included transfer port will enable a much lower up to 550fps and 70 shots when power isn't needed and ideal for indoor shooting and pesting.
The 1720Ts are $356.99 from Crosman with 25% off AGNATION discount and free shipping Friday's when they have them in stock.
I have more 1701Ps in pistol form as well as with carbine AR stocks than 1720Ts because I like their lighter weight (about half pound lighter at around 2.5# vs 3#) and better balance and compactness (around 3 1/4 inches shorter) and near silent with TKO silencer and cheaper at $281.21 using the 25% AGNATION discount and free shipping Friday's when they have them in stock. All they need is 0.067 and 0.080 TPs to up their power. The added on rear AR stock with RAI adapter is easy to unscrew to go back and fourth between pistol and carbine too.
It's second included transfer port will enable a much lower up to 550fps and 70 shots when power isn't needed and ideal for indoor shooting and pesting.
The 1720Ts are $356.99 from Crosman with 25% off AGNATION discount and free shipping Friday's when they have them in stock.
I have more 1701Ps in pistol form as well as with carbine AR stocks than 1720Ts because I like their lighter weight (about half pound lighter at around 2.5# vs 3#) and better balance and compactness (around 3 1/4 inches shorter) and near silent with TKO silencer and cheaper at $281.21 using the 25% AGNATION discount and free shipping Friday's when they have them in stock. All they need is 0.067 and 0.080 TPs to up their power. The added on rear AR stock with RAI adapter is easy to unscrew to go back and fourth between pistol and carbine too.
Upvote 0