HW/Weihrauch 20 cal pellets and trajectory myths

[Mycapt65]

I started to type this as a response to another thread about pellets for a 20 cal Hw95N. Nice rifle btw. Anyways I figured it was worth a wider audience.

11.42 FTTs
13.58 Barracuda
13.73 Exacts

PS you may find rebranded versions of the three I listed above (Referring to the other thread). Use the pellet weights as your guide line. Also if you're looking for the flat trajectory everyone expects from a 20 cal Weihrauch stay with the 11.42 FTTs. You should be around 800 fps with them. They are usually the highest or sometimes tied with the 13.73s for the highest energy in most Weihrauchs. The Hw90 being the exception. I haven't noticed much difference in accuracy between the two. Best accuracy can flip flop between tin lot numbers.

If you're going for longer distances (>50 yards) the 13.73 JSBs have an BC edge over the FTTs.

JSBs 13.73 = 0.0373
FTTs 11.42 = 0.0274

These are actual numbers. Published data is incorrect. Wildly incorrect on the FTTs.
My numbers were done using my R1 and two matched chronographs set 47 yards apart.

I recommend 20 cals if you're looking for something different and or accuracy from your Weihrauch. Other than the the 11.42 FTTs the 20s aren't any flatter than 22s. They both shoot low 700s. The reason is the larger 22 bore diameter generally adds about a pound of energy from the same rifle. That extra pound will push standard weight 22 lead pellets as fast as the 20 caliber will 13.58s and 13.73s. The BC between the 20 and 22 is close enough it's a wash. So the flatter 20 caliber argument is bunk unless you use the FTTs. Then you give up BC at longer distances. This is where switching to 13.73 JSBs puts you in the same trajectory as a 22.

Accuracy, I've never seen a Weihrauch 20 that wasn't accurate. Usually they are stupid accurate. I can't say the same about Weihrauch 22s. Most are good to great. I have seen a couple that weren't. Weihrauch seems to put more care in their 20 caliber barrels. They're certainly more expensive than the others.

Weihrauch 22 accuracy is normally very good to great. I don't want people telling me I'm giving 22 Weihrauchs a bad rap. Its just I've seen a few oversized bores that makes them pellet picky. Usually 5.54 or 5.55 head FTTs straightens them right out.

In the end 20 cals are a safe bet for accuracy at the expense of pellet choices. The 22 cals are just as flat and make more energy with a wider selection of easier to find pellets. That's unless you get an oversized bore then your choices will be as limited as the 20 cal.

My source of information is from tuning and testing several 20 and 22 cal Weihrauchs over the years. I also own four Hw95 family guns in three calibers.
Hw95 177 cal
R9 SE 20 cal
Hw98 20 cal
Hw95 Field Pro 22 cal
Every one of these guns has something great about them. There's no bad calibers for them. The 95 platform is a great platform.

I also have a R1 that has worn 177, (2) 20 and 22 caliber barrels since I've owned it. I've extensively tested the difference in manners and output between all three calibers. I still have a 20 caliber barrel for it but like it best in 22.

I'd say I have a pretty good cross section of experience to back my pragmatic statements here. I know someone will take offense to something I've said because they like this or that. That's their perogative. I'm just providing general facts and experiences for people to use as they wish.

HTH
Be well
Ron

 

[mh]

Thank you Ron. Not all of us (me) are smart enough to put all this information together .
.20 cal 101 !

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I'm greatly offended by your post and want to argue about it.

I shoot an HW95 in .22 and love it. I always wondered if the .20 had any advantage. I still don't know. But it was a good read and you laid out some good info!

Thanks!

 

[jccams]

As always Ron, your information is based on facts and actual experience. I love my .20's, especially the 98. Thanks for the read.

 

[Bandito]

Thanks. I do like the 20s. Be Well Brothers, B.

 

[Sawney Bean]

I'm greatly offended by your post and want to argue about it.

I shoot an HW95 in .22 and love it. I always wondered if the .20 had any advantage. I still don't know. But it was a good read and you laid out some good info!

Thanks!

I think that for shooters in the UK the .20 still would have the edge, since instead of gaining an extra foot pound with the larger bore size they'd be regulated to approximately the same power output. And also you could tune it right up to the edge of 12 fpe as there are only four pellets available to test it with.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I think that for shooters in the UK the .20 still would have the edge, since instead of gaining an extra foot pound with the larger bore size they'd be regulated to approximately the same power output. And also you could tune it right up to the edge of 12 fpe as there are only four pellets available to test it with.

I've never thought about that. It's a great point.

I wondered why a 20 was so popular. Never thought about power restrictions in other countries. It makes sense.

 

[Mycapt65]

I'm greatly offended by your post and want to argue about it.

I shoot an HW95 in .22 and love it. I always wondered if the .20 had any advantage. I still don't know. But it was a good read and you laid out some good info!

Thanks!

I'd say if you're happy with your 22 cal 95s accuracy I wouldn't bother with a 20 cal. Set up the same way the 22 will have a smoother shot cycle and make more power. If you just want a 20 because you want one. Have at it you wont be disappointed its a great caliber for that gun but you see much difference between the two.

Depending on what you already have you're money might be better spent on a different model. Or at least drop the 95 down to 177. The shot cycle will be jumpier and a little louder but you'll see a big difference in trajectory. My 177 95 is a 900 fps lazer. Its my most accurate break barrel at 50 yards. Going from 700 to 900 fps (aproximately) might be worth duplicating a model.

Or maybe get a 97 in 20 if you want to try 20 cal. That's a real nice rifle.

Whatever you decide I wish you well.

 

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah Ron,
I only own Weihrauch Springers in two calibers .177 and .20.
I also only target shoot; maybe if I hunted I’d want the extra pop.
I’ve tried about (6) .22 caliber barrels and only two had good to nice command.

My HW 80 in .20 is my most accurate gun, I think I got a superb barrel.
Plus I believe the 13.73’s like to go fast … up to 800 fps.
At 715/735 fps they have more of a loop to the trajectory.
i think the HW 80/90 are ideal …. but their heavy.

Again, IMO people should not worry about the .20 pellets choices.
However, it is another pellet size to buy

 

[Motorhead]

Been shooting JSB 13.73's in FT competition for @ 8 years now in a PCP hovering sub 20 fpe ( 790 -800 fps ) and realized a BC of .040 to .044
So yes ... shooting .20 over a .177 and unable to get them moving faster your going to find a loopy trajectory, tho wind drift if an issue you pay attention too ? will be less so than the .17's even tho likely traveling faster.

 

[Mycapt65]

Again, IMO people should not worry about the .20 pellets choices.
However, it is another pellet size to buy

Lol. Too funny My first four Weihrauchs were all 177. I remember lamenting having to stock 22 caliber pellets for my fifth Weihrauch. Then I got a 20 cal RX1 and the big 20 cal tins really made a mess of my ammo shelf orginization. Now I keep all three calibers on hand and don't worry about the mess. The older I get the less ocd I'm becoming about such trivial things.

 

[Franklink]

@Mycapt65,

Have you done the same experiment of measuring BCs from your HW springers with the most similarly weighted JSB .22s? (The .22/13.43 and the .22/14.35). I'd be curious to see the numbers you get from a springer.

I've measured and compared the three pellets in question here, but from a PCP and all three just shy of 20fpe, like @Motorhead mentioned. And my BCs are similar to what he cites.. Neither of the similar weighted .22s produce as high of a BC as the .20/13.73 when using a PCP, but different platforms and a few more fpe than you're talking from your HW springers. So again, I'd be curious to know how the numbers shake out from one of your springers with the .22s.

My choosing the .20/13.73 is more about wind resistance than "flatter." The wind is the wild card, but the trajectory can always be easily accounted for.

 

[Mycapt65]

@Mycapt65,

Have you done the same experiment of measuring BCs from your HW springers with the most similarly weighted JSB .22s? (The .22/13.43 and the .22/14.35). I'd be curious to see the numbers you get from a springer.

I've measured and compared the three pellets in question here, but from a PCP and all three just shy of 20fpe, like @Motorhead mentioned. And my BCs are similar to what he cites.. Neither of the similar weighted .22s produce as high of a BC as the .20/13.73 when using a PCP, but different platforms and a few more fpe than you're talking from your HW springers. So again, I'd be curious to know how the numbers shake out from one of your springers with the .22s.

I've never done such exact bc calculation on 22s. I've done it for a few 177s a long time ago.

BC changes with velocity so the same pellet can have different BCs when shot at different speeds. Also the same pellets can have different BC from different barrels due to deformation from different rifling and or chokes. I'm sure you're well aware of these things, but the short answer is, No. I've never measured 22 cal pellets BC.

Speaking in broad generalizations a 22 caliber pellet of the same weight as a 20 caliber will have less sectional density and thus likely a lower BC than the 20 caliber.

Springers are different than PCPs in that they have a fixed amount air and minimal dwell time so a larger bore is more efficient. My 22 cal 95 will push a 14.66 FTT the same speed as the same gun will a 20 cal 13.73. Therfore the SD of the 22 becomes close enough to the lighter 20 cal that the BC difference isn't as huge if both calibers were the same weight. Obviously pellet design comes into play.

FWIW none of the 22 Weihrauchs I've worked on made good energy with the JSB 13.73 or 14.35. I think the jsb skirts are too soft. Accuracy was poor as well. Probably the underlying reason i never bothered to test their BC

With the adjustable power of a pcp you can do almost anyhing you want. You're not tethered to optimizing efficiency of a shot cycle with a pellet. You can simply adjust the power to optimize the pellet.

 

[EquivalentDelta]

I've never done such exact bc calculation on 22s. I've done it for a few 177s a long time ago.

BC changes with velocity so the same pellet can have different BCs when shot at different speeds. Also the same pellets can have different BC from different barrels due to deformation from different rifling and or chokes. I'm sure you're well aware of these things, but the short answer is, No. I've never measured 22 cal pellets BC.

Speaking in broad generalizations a 22 caliber pellet of the same weight as a 20 caliber will have less sectional density and thus likely a lower BC than the 20 caliber.

Springers are different than PCPs in that they have a fixed amount air and minimal dwell time so a larger bore is more efficient. My 22 cal 95 will push a 14.66 FTT the same speed as the same gun will a 20 cal 13.73. Therfore the SD of the 22 becomes close enough to the lighter 20 cal that the BC difference isn't as huge if both calibers were the same weight. Obviously pellet design comes into play.

FWIW none of the 22 Weihrauchs I've worked on made good energy with the JSB 13.73 or 14.35. I think the jsb skirts are too soft. Accuracy was poor as well. Probably the underlying reason i never bothered to test their BC

With the adjustable power of a pcp you can do almost anyhing you want. You're not tethered to optimizing efficiency of a shot cycle with a pellet. You can simply adjust the power to optimize the pellet.

I think with a fixed power plant like in a springer, you are usually best off to go to a heavy pellet in .22. Your main enemy is the wind. It’s too unpredictable and ever changing. It makes hitting something small with .177s in the field very tough.

I like that I can take my 18.1gr JSB heavies, dial in some inane amount of elevation, and get on target without holding for wind much if at all. It’s very helpful on a swirly day. IE most days here in Finland.

 

[Mycapt65]

I think with a fixed power plant like in a springer, you are usually best off to go to a heavy pellet in .22. Your main enemy is the wind. It’s too unpredictable and ever changing. It makes hitting something small with .177s in the field very tough.

I like that I can take my 18.1gr JSB heavies, dial in some inane amount of elevation, and get on target without holding for wind much if at all. It’s very helpful on a swirly day. IE most days here in Finland.

The caliber and heavy pellet thing gets debated all the time. There's lots to consider particularly with springers. Going from 177 to 22 is an option to increase BC which decreases wind drift. Using heavy pellets to increase BC generally isn't an option for springers. Unfortunately springers typically loose efficiency as pellet weights increase. Most springers work well with a certain pellet because it provides optimal resistance for shot cycle efficiency. Heavy pellets typically hurt efficiency greatly. My R1 as a 177 made 17 fpe with typical 8.44 grain lead pellets and under 13 with heavier Barracuda and JSBs. The higher BC of the heavier pellet will cause it to drift less in the wind. Especially now that its much slower. Drift increases with velocity. If wind drift is your only concern you're golden. If you're hunting the substantial energy loss may be a penetration concern. Plus the great velocity loss makes landing the shot accurately much more difficult due to trajectory.

It's pick your poision with springers. Your springer will only work best with a few pellets. From those you have to pick the one that gives you the best overall performance for the task at hand.

In broad terms springers increase efficiency as bore size increases. At least up to 22 caliber due to bore diameter. I have heard of some people losing efficiency (energy) going from 22 to 25 but I myself can't say I've tested that. Going from 177 to 20 to 22 will net power increases in each step. However the velocity still drops with the increase in caliber. In the end you have to realize that your springer will only perform best with a handful of pellets and your stuck with them. You cant just arbitrarily pick any pellet and make it work in a springer. A springer pretty much tells you what your choices are and you have to live with them.

This is a complicated subject because springer efficiency is affected by a few things. Almost all related to back pressure. To be clear back pressure (sometimes called start pressure because it's the pressure required to start the pellet moving) is primarily a combination of weight and fit. A tight fitting pellet may have a higher start pressure than looser fitting heavier pellets. This is why testing is critical. In broad general terms springers suffer as pellet weights increase over a certain point.

The concept of arbitrarily increasing pellet weight to increase BC with springers is seriously flawed due to nature of springers. What you have more control of with them is caliber. You just have to pick your poision, flat and fast 177 that makes hold overs easier but drift more in the wind. Or 22 slower and loopier that makes hold overs hard but drifts less in the wind. I've already addressed 20 falls close to 22 in the opening post. The choice of calibers is a personal choice that has to fit the person. My range estimation skills are poor so I prefer flatter calibers. People with better range estimation skills may prefer harder hitting larger calibers.

 

[MDriskill]

Great thread! I'm busy scribbling notes as I go, lol...

I don't do as much shooting as Ron (!), but one of his points I can emphasize is FIT of the pellet - skirt diameter, thickness, and lead compound vary a surprising amount between brands of pellets. This was discussed in the classic Gerald Cardew book The Airgun From Trigger to Target, and is definitely worth exploring. Over years of playing with springers (mostly lower-powered sporters and target guns), I've found the pellet skirt's fit to the breech leade is critical to both power output and firing behavior.

Examples: The 7.3 gr JSB Exact (thin soft skirt about .181 in diameter) is consistently faster and smoother in most modern guns with a short, sharp breech chamfer than the 7.0 gr RWS Hobby (thicker harder skirt about .186 in diameter). The JSB makes my FWB 65 pistol feel a lot more "recoilless!" But the reverse is true on an early-1960's HW 55 with its long tapered breech leade. The JSB falls in too far and seals poorly, and the Hobby is much better.

 

[HeyU]

Your post is great timing. I was just contemplating buying the 95 in 20cal. Is the universe talking to me again !!!!!

 

[fishing43]

Great thread! I'm busy scribbling notes as I go, lol...

I don't do as much shooting as Ron (!), but one of his points I can emphasize is FIT of the pellet - skirt diameter, thickness, and lead compound vary a surprising amount between brands of pellets. This was discussed in the classic Gerald Cardew book The Airgun From Trigger to Target, and is definitely worth exploring. Over years of playing with springers (mostly lower-powered sporters and target guns), I've found the pellet skirt's fit to the breech leade is critical to both power output and firing behavior.

Examples: The 7.3 gr JSB Exact (thin soft skirt about .181 in diameter) is consistently faster and smoother in most modern guns with a short, sharp breech chamfer than the 7.0 gr RWS Hobby (thicker harder skirt about .186 in diameter). The JSB makes my FWB 65 pistol feel a lot more "recoilless!" But the reverse is true on an early-1960's HW 55 with its long tapered breech leade. The JSB falls in too far and seals poorly, and the Hobby is much better.

I just scribbled a note concerning the hobbies for my 55. Thanks

 

[coastal drifter]

I recently received my WH95n in .20, I have owned a 95 luxus .22 and a Hw77 .177 along with a couple other springers in .177. I have barely run a tin of H&N ftt 11.42gr and my first impressions are WOW!, what a power house. I ran a few shots over the chronograph and its reading 800fps average. It doesn't seem to be all that hold sensitive either. I was looking for a easy to shoulder and shoot freehand with Iron sites to keep it light weight. I did put a williams peep sight on it. So far I'm popping cans out to 60 yards rested and 30 yards freehand. I think I found what I was looking for in a springer. Although i'm doing my best to resist, this gun is definitely worth a scope.

 

[coastal drifter]

Great thread! I'm busy scribbling notes as I go, lol...

I don't do as much shooting as Ron (!), but one of his points I can emphasize is FIT of the pellet - skirt diameter, thickness, and lead compound vary a surprising amount between brands of pellets. This was discussed in the classic Gerald Cardew book The Airgun From Trigger to Target, and is definitely worth exploring. Over years of playing with springers (mostly lower-powered sporters and target guns), I've found the pellet skirt's fit to the breech leade is critical to both power output and firing behavior.

Examples: The 7.3 gr JSB Exact (thin soft skirt about .181 in diameter) is consistently faster and smoother in most modern guns with a short, sharp breech chamfer than the 7.0 gr RWS Hobby (thicker harder skirt about .186 in diameter). The JSB makes my FWB 65 pistol feel a lot more "recoilless!" But the reverse is true on an early-1960's HW 55 with its long tapered breech leade. The JSB falls in too far and seals poorly, and the Hobby is much better.

I was shooting the 10.3 AAs and the H&N ftt8.64 with my HW77. The H&N ftt fit tighter and shot slower than the 10,3. which were looser fitting. The H&Ns were also more accurate in my gun.