HW/Weihrauch 20 cal pellets and trajectory myths

[MDriskill]

I just scribbled a note concerning the hobbies for my 55. Thanks

To be clear - this is most applicable to older HW 55's. Apparently in an effort to reduce the effects of recoil, they actually hammered a mandrel into the breech leade to create a slightly bigger and tapered throat. I think that had ended by the 70's...most Beeman-era 55's (700K serials maybe?) are not that different from any other HW's. But traditional RWS ammo (Hobby, Superdome, Meisterkugeln, Superpoint, Super H-Point) consistenly have a large skirt diameter, and are usually the ticket in the oldest 55's.

But try Hobbys regardless! They are surprisingly good in many guns.

 

[Mycapt65]

I recently received my WH95n in .20, I have owned a 95 luxus .22 and a Hw77 .177 along with a couple other springers in .177. I have barely run a tin of H&N ftt 11.42gr and my first impressions are WOW!, what a power house. I ran a few shots over the chronograph and its reading 800fps average. It doesn't seem to be all that hold sensitive either. I was looking for a easy to shoulder and shoot freehand with Iron sites to keep it light weight. I did put a williams peep sight on it. So far I'm popping cans out to 60 yards rested and 30 yards freehand. I think I found what I was looking for in a springer. Although i'm doing my best to resist, this gun is definitely worth a scope.

A 95 family gun in 20 is a wonderful thing. So is the 77/97 underlevers that share nearly the same internal dimensions and power. 20 cal is a real nice fit for them. I've never seen a dud 20 cal weihrauch as far as accuracy goes. With the 11.42s they nice and flat. Its a real sweet combo. With the others pellets they are pretty much the same velocity trajectory as a 22. That was the point of the OP.

I will say there is something special about these guns in 20. I have a 20 cal R9SE and 98. Both very nice rifles. My other Weihrauchs are nice but having these specific ones in 20 is special for me. My 177 97 shoots amazing. Still I'd love to find another 97 or better yet an older 77 in 20 for a decent price. 20 cal suits this power level so well.

PS your rifle is definitely worth scoping. My favorite rifle is my Hw30. I was switching it between peeps and scopes so much I had to by a second one. No regrets there. They both get used more than any others. The peep sighted one is the most fun for me. But I cant shoot it 100 yards like the scoped 30. Sometimes one isnt enough.

 

[.20calguy]

I started to type this as a response to another thread about pellets for a 20 cal Hw95N. Nice rifle btw. Anyways I figured it was worth a wider audience.

11.42 FTTs
13.58 Barracuda
13.73 Exacts

PS you may find rebranded versions of the three I listed above (Referring to the other thread). Use the pellet weights as your guide line. Also if you're looking for the flat trajectory everyone expects from a 20 cal Weihrauch stay with the 11.42 FTTs. You should be around 800 fps with them. They are usually the highest or sometimes tied with the 13.73s for the highest energy in most Weihrauchs. The Hw90 being the exception. I haven't noticed much difference in accuracy between the two. Best accuracy can flip flop between tin lot numbers.

If you're going for longer distances (>50 yards) the 13.73 JSBs have an BC edge over the FTTs.

JSBs 13.73 = 0.0373
FTTs 11.42 = 0.0274

These are actual numbers. Published data is incorrect. Wildly incorrect on the FTTs.
My numbers were done using my R1 and two matched chronographs set 47 yards apart.

I recommend 20 cals if you're looking for something different and or accuracy from your Weihrauch. Other than the the 11.42 FTTs the 20s aren't any flatter than 22s. They both shoot low 700s. The reason is the larger 22 bore diameter generally adds about a pound of energy from the same rifle. That extra pound will push standard weight 22 lead pellets as fast as the 20 caliber will 13.58s and 13.73s. The BC between the 20 and 22 is close enough it's a wash. So the flatter 20 caliber argument is bunk unless you use the FTTs. Then you give up BC at longer distances. This is where switching to 13.73 JSBs puts you in the same trajectory as a 22.

Accuracy, I've never seen a Weihrauch 20 that wasn't accurate. Usually they are stupid accurate. I can't say the same about Weihrauch 22s. Most are good to great. I have seen a couple that weren't. Weihrauch seems to put more care in their 20 caliber barrels. They're certainly more expensive than the others.

Weihrauch 22 accuracy is normally very good to great. I don't want people telling me I'm giving 22 Weihrauchs a bad rap. Its just I've seen a few oversized bores that makes them pellet picky. Usually 5.54 or 5.55 head FTTs straightens them right out.

In the end 20 cals are a safe bet for accuracy at the expense of pellet choices. The 22 cals are just as flat and make more energy with a wider selection of easier to find pellets. That's unless you get an oversized bore then your choices will be as limited as the 20 cal.

My source of information is from tuning and testing several 20 and 22 cal Weihrauchs over the years. I also own four Hw95 family guns in three calibers.
Hw95 177 cal
R9 SE 20 cal
Hw98 20 cal
Hw95 Field Pro 22 cal
Every one of these guns has something great about them. There's no bad calibers for them. The 95 platform is a great platform.

I also have a R1 that has worn 177, (2) 20 and 22 caliber barrels since I've owned it. I've extensively tested the difference in manners and output between all three calibers. I still have a 20 caliber barrel for it but like it best in 22.

I'd say I have a pretty good cross section of experience to back my pragmatic statements here. I know someone will take offense to something I've said because they like this or that. That's their perogative. I'm just providing general facts and experiences for people to use as they wish.

HTH
Be well
Ron

Good read Ron!
I have been out of pocket with family affairs for a couple weeks. I look forward to reading the commentary, and getting back to shooting.

 

[jps2486]

So I have a choice of .177, .20, or .22. Pellets are available in essentially the same weight:

.177-13.43 gr.
.20- 13.73 gr.
.22- 13.43 gr.

I'm leaning toward the .177. The .20 is pretty limited to pellet choice and is a mongrel, IMO. Your comments about poor accuracy concerns me.

 

[Bomber714]

The only reason I got a hw30s .20 is the fact that Airgunrs of arizona waiting list for a .22 was 6 months. So I settled for a .20 cal that’s was in stock. The price was higher but I’m loving this rifle.

 

[Mycapt65]

So I have a choice of .177, .20, or .22. Pellets are available in essentially the same weight:

.177-13.43 gr.
.20- 13.73 gr.
.22- 13.43 gr.

I'm leaning toward the .177. The .20 is pretty limited to pellet choice and is a mongrel, IMO. Your comments about poor accuracy concerns me.

If you're looking at springers you're gonna loose alot of efficiency with a 177 13.43 pellet. There's more at play than just pellet weight when picking calibers for springers or other piston guns. PCPS are completely different.

 

[Motorhead]

If you're looking at springers you're gonna loose alot of efficiency with a 177 13.43 pellet. There's more at play than just pellet weight when picking calibers for springers or other piston guns. PCPS are completely different.

While .20 is more efficient due to greater area than .177, a springer of modest to higher design output a VERY good caliber !! If running a lower output springer the caliber will still shoot well enough but have a likely TOO LOOPY of trajectory for any hunting purposes or longer distances.

And I agree 13 grain weights in .177 it too much outside perhaps an HW80 or Diana 48/52/54 series or other "Magnum" rifles

 

[drsquall]

While .20 is more efficient due to greater area than .177, a springer of modest to higher design output a VERY good caliber !! If running a lower output springer the caliber will still shoot well enough but have a likely TOO LOOPY of trajectory for any hunting purposes or longer distances.

And I agree 13 grain weights in .177 it too much outside perhaps an HW80 or Diana 48/52/54 series or other "Magnum" rifles

I have a 20cal coming in a 97 and it's a sub 12. I will make it at least 14fpe to better use the ability of the 20cal and not have the loopy trajectory for hunting. Will it be harder to shoot as accurately as a sub 12 probably I will find out but I am willing to work with it for my main purpose of hunting. We will see who knows.

 

[Bandito]

STILL need to shoot my 95 in 20 a lot more. I need to get it to stop dieseling. The bullet trap can get me there. It costs too much in gas to get to my buddy's farm. That and the driving time could be utilized shooting. Win win! Bullet trap in the basement it is. Be Well Brothers of the 20 cal, Bandito.

 

[Mycapt65]

STILL need to shoot my 95 in 20 a lot more. I need to get it to stop dieseling. The bullet trap can get me there. It costs too much in gas to get to my buddy's farm. That and the driving time could be utilized shooting. Win win! Bullet trap in the basement it is. Be Well Brothers of the 20 cal, Bandito.

The best way to get a gun to stop dieseling is to take it apart and fix it. Some guns will never stop dieseling because the seals were damaged during installation and or they're so excessively lubed, they'll burn through the piston seal before they stop. The seals come damaged in probably 80% of new Weihrauchs sent to me.

Other issues can cause excessive dieseling as well. Damaged or defective compression tubes allow grease to get ahead of the piston seal. Weihrauch has been getting sloppy with their compression tubes. Lately Weihrauch has been using welded tubing. The weld seam runs the full length of the tubing. Its not a big deal if they're machined correctly. However I've had a couple new guns sent to me that the tube's weld seam wasn't fully machined out because it was recessed. This creates a path for both compression and lubricant to bypass the seal. It also can also eat the seal lip. Guns like this aren't fixable and will forever diesel and eat seals.

The other thing I've seen in a few Weihrauchs is machining swarf gets lodged between the piston head and bottom of the compression tube. It scores the tube as it travels up and down. A scored tube will have the same issues as the bad weld seam but usually to a lesser degree depending on amount of scoring. The longer its let go the more damage is done.

I tell you all this because it's an expensive proposition to try shooting out Dieseling with 20 caliber pellets. If the gun is still smoking after a tin of pellets take it apart.

 

[Sean_Eason]

I'd say if you're happy with your 22 cal 95s accuracy I wouldn't bother with a 20 cal. Set up the same way the 22 will have a smoother shot cycle and make more power. If you just want a 20 because you want one. Have at it you wont be disappointed its a great caliber for that gun but you see much difference between the two.

Depending on what you already have you're money might be better spent on a different model. Or at least drop the 95 down to 177. The shot cycle will be jumpier and a little louder but you'll see a big difference in trajectory. My 177 95 is a 900 fps lazer. Its my most accurate break barrel at 50 yards. Going from 700 to 900 fps (aproximately) might be worth duplicating a model.

Or maybe get a 97 in 20 if you want to try 20 cal. That's a real nice rifle.

Whatever you decide I wish you well.

I totally agree with you!!!!!! My HW95 in .177 is just amazing and accurate air rifle and I love shooting it with the flat trajectory. and on the other hand, I really enjoy my R9 in 20 Cal so awesome & smooth to shoot! Both are joy to shoot and I’m just getting use to my HW 97 in 20 Cal that I just got from AOA with the blue laminate very smooth shooting rifles! Beautiful engineering

 

[bullpuppy177]

I had a rws 52 with a 20 cal barrel and imo that is the sweet spot for the power of that gun. I have a rws 48 in .177 and it is can go supersonic.

 

[Silver Ace]

I have a R1 that was .20 cal. Just for grins 15 or so years ago I converted it a .22 carbine. Pretty good set up and I was able to buy a lifetime supply of .22 Premier pellets on the cheap. Certainly not any more accurate than my .20 cal. But decent enough.

I may convert back to .20 cal since I have a small hoard of Beeman Crow magnums, silver jets and silver ace (the boxed Japanese ones)The only problem is I see what people are trying to sell these for on eBay and now am thinking maybe these will be my retirement plan.

 

[Mycapt65]

I have a R1 that was .20 cal. Just for grins 15 or so years ago I converted it a .22 carbine. Pretty good set up and I was able to buy a lifetime supply of .22 Premier pellets on the cheap. Certainly not any more accurate than my .20 cal. But decent enough.

I may convert back to .20 cal since I have a small hoard of Beeman Crow magnums, silver jets and silver ace (the boxed Japanese ones)The only problem is I see what people are trying to sell these for on eBay and now am thinking maybe these will be my retirement plan.

Don't wait too long to sell those pellets. The customer base for those is literally dying out.

 

[.20calguy]

The best way to get a gun to stop dieseling is to take it apart and fix it. Some guns will never stop dieseling because the seals were damaged during installation and or they're so excessively lubed, they'll burn through the piston seal before they stop. The seals come damaged in probably 80% of new Weihrauchs sent to me.

Other issues can cause excessive dieseling as well. Damaged or defective compression tubes allow grease to get ahead of the piston seal. Weihrauch has been getting sloppy with their compression tubes. Lately Weihrauch has been using welded tubing. The weld seam runs the full length of the tubing. Its not a big deal if they're machined correctly. However I've had a couple new guns sent to me that the tube's weld seam wasn't fully machined out because it was recessed. This creates a path for both compression and lubricant to bypass the seal. It also can also eat the seal lip. Guns like this aren't fixable and will forever diesel and eat seals.

The other thing I've seen in a few Weihrauchs is machining swarf gets lodged between the piston head and bottom of the compression tube. It scores the tube as it travels up and down. A scored tube will have the same issues as the bad weld seam but usually to a lesser degree depending on amount of scoring. The longer its let go the more damage is done.

I tell you all this because it's an expensive proposition to try shooting out Dieseling with 20 caliber pellets. If the gun is still smoking after a tin of pellets take it apart.

My 97K is deaseling after 5000. When I sent it back for warranty I had AoA install a Vortek kit while they had it apart. I expected the deiseling to end as it was mentioned in my warranty complaints.
I thought they could use a different low flash point lube?

 

[.20calguy]

I have a R1 that was .20 cal. Just for grins 15 or so years ago I converted it a .22 carbine. Pretty good set up and I was able to buy a lifetime supply of .22 Premier pellets on the cheap. Certainly not any more accurate than my .20 cal. But decent enough.

I may convert back to .20 cal since I have a small hoard of Beeman Crow magnums, silver jets and silver ace (the boxed Japanese ones)The only problem is I see what people are trying to sell these for on eBay and now am thinking maybe these will be my retirement plan.

The .20 cal Crow magnums weren't a good pellet for my R1 or the Sheridan. I haven't shot those since the late eighties.

 

[Mycapt65]

My 97K is deaseling after 5000. When I sent it back for warranty I had AoA install a Vortek kit while they had it apart. I expected the deiseling to end as it was mentioned in my warranty complaints.
I thought they could use a different low flash point lube?

You mean higher flash point. A lower flash point would be more prone to dieseling. That's not here or there. I knew what you meant. I just wanted to point that out. Dieseling can be eliminated by using Teflon based greases like Krytox or Ultimox. They're non petroleum based and technically shouldn't diesel at all. If you use too much it does smoke somehow. It may be vapor rather than smoke.

I use both petroleum based lubes and Krytox in my builds. Never in the same gun. Krytox is expensive so I save it for guns with compromised compression tubes. Those are compression tubes that have scoring in the seal travel that's too deep to hone out. Krytox is supposed to be more temperature stable but I've never noticed it being any better. I don't shoot when it's 20 degrees out either. You lose 10 fps going from petroleum based lubes to Krytox. That's in the best built, tightest sealing piston guns. Even those diesel a little bit with petroleum lubes. It's just not detectable. You'll lose more velocity with Krytox if the gun is dieseling noticeably.

Krytox guns also seem to get dry and sticky before guns lubed with a good petroleum based lube. Therefore I pretty much save it for guns that have sealing issues.

If your 97 is still dieseling after 5K shots and you haven't been adding lube to it, I'd have to think the seal was probably damaged on installation or they used a ton of lube. A 97 has a machined sliding compression tube so they're not as prone to damage or concentricity issues as break barrels. Either way it ain't right. Dieseling can cause accuracy problems and point of impact shift. Excessive dieseling can be tough on the spring too. Not as bad as detonation which is that loud crack you get when there's too much lube in front of the piston seal or the rifle is dry fired. A single detonation can cut spring life in half.

Hope this helps.
I think you have my number, feel free to call me if you have any questions.

Ron

 

[.20calguy]

You mean higher flash point. A lower flash point would be more prone to dieseling. That's not here or there. I knew what you meant. I just wanted to point that out. Dieseling can be eliminated by using Teflon based greases like Krytox or Ultimox. They're non petroleum based and technically shouldn't diesel at all. If you use too much it does smoke somehow. It may be vapor rather than smoke.

I use both petroleum based lubes and Krytox in my builds. Never in the same gun. Krytox is expensive so I save it for guns with compromised compression tubes. Those are compression tubes that have scoring in the seal travel that's too deep to hone out. Krytox is supposed to be more temperature stable but I've never noticed it being any better. I don't shoot when it's 20 degrees out either. You lose 10 fps going from petroleum based lubes to Krytox. That's in the best built, tightest sealing piston guns. Even those diesel a little bit with petroleum lubes. It's just not detectable. You'll lose more velocity with Krytox if the gun is dieseling noticeably.

Krytox guns also seem to get dry and sticky before guns lubed with a good petroleum based lube. Therefore I pretty much save it for guns that have sealing issues.

If your 97 is still dieseling after 5K shots and you haven't been adding lube to it, I'd have to think the seal was probably damaged on installation or they used a ton of lube. A 97 has a machined sliding compression tube so they're not as prone to damage or concentricity issues as break barrels. Either way it ain't right. Dieseling can cause accuracy problems and point of impact shift. Excessive dieseling can be tough on the spring too. Not as bad as detonation which is that loud crack you get when there's too much lube in front of the piston seal or the rifle is dry fired. A single detonation can cut spring life in half.

Hope this helps.
I think you have my number, feel free to call me if you have any questions.

Ron

Thanks Ron.
I mostly can smell it but when I got a strong wiff of it I blew smoke out of it.
I finaly started trying other ammos and that may have effected the stroke enough to cause the smoking uptick.
I will call you when it needs dissasembly.

 

[Mycapt65]

Thanks Ron.
I mostly can smell it but when I got a strong wiff of it I blew smoke out of it.
I finaly started trying other ammos and that may have effected the stroke enough to cause the smoking uptick.
I will call you when it needs dissasembly.

What ammos makes it smoke the most and least? Assuming it's 20 cal there's not much choice in the matter. Some guns diesel more with pellets that are too light and or sometimes too heavy because it changes the speed of the pressure spike. For example my Hw50 diesels noticeably with 7.33 Exact RS but not with 7.87 or 8.44s. Anything heavier I wouldn't use because the speed and efficiency decreases drastically. The dieseling and bad accuracy tells me that 7.33s are too light for that rifle. Traditionally 8.44s are my go to for that rifle.

The only pellets I use in my 20s are 11.42 FTT and 13.73 Exacts. Mostly the Exacts because they have a much better BC for longer ranges. The efficiency drops alot with the 13.58 Barracuda and 15.89 Exact Heavies. If I had lower powered 20 caliber guns I'd probably lean them more on the 11.42 FTTs to help keep velocities higher. That's as long as it was accurate. Accuracy trumps all. A slower 13.73 on target is better than a faster miss with an 11.42.

 

[Bandito]

My capt that is profound. A 13.73 on target... Be Well Brothers, Bandito.