200-500 yards hunting with airgun ethical?
- Thread starter Airmanator
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Yup, and on that note, back to my comments about one knowing his equipment and his own abilities, maybe do some research on shots taken on humans by our Military Snipers and at what distances they take them at. Some equipment and ammunition is made for long range and to deny that is to commit intellectual suicide. Feelings should never be allowed to replace logic and facts.
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I've noticed that most of the top airgun youtubers are trained marksman, exmilitary so the long range shots for them are a piece of cake. And they also put the time in with the rifle and rounds they choose to use.
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Many of them are trained video editors as well.
Don't tell simpleguy that he vows by all the youtubers!!!!
On another note with that, yours are about the only videos I hold any stock in anymore
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Ethics literally means the custom of character. I despise assigning the word ethics to anything other than the effect of one's actions upon human beings such as that is how it was first established in the shabbat.
That said, our custom of character is to not knowingly let an animal suffer if taken as game but only persisted as an issue for pests in the past century or so.
All things change and so do our optics and now pests are held to a higher regard. I personally don't like to see any animal suffer but I call that a personal boundary and will not seek to impose my feelings upon others.
Such as, I have no issues with eliminating Canidae or Felinus in the wild.
That said, our custom of character is to not knowingly let an animal suffer if taken as game but only persisted as an issue for pests in the past century or so.
All things change and so do our optics and now pests are held to a higher regard. I personally don't like to see any animal suffer but I call that a personal boundary and will not seek to impose my feelings upon others.
Such as, I have no issues with eliminating Canidae or Felinus in the wild.
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No, I don't care what your skill level is. Even with a firearm, can you always get a one shot humane kill?
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No, I don't believe so. For example, a Texas heart shot is considered by many to be cruel unless the bullet finds it's way to the heart but it is assumed to be 100% fatal even if it misses all the vitals.
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Perhaps you should re-read what I said. I said that taking a shot beyond 100 yards is questionable for most people… Not for everyone, and not for me.
I routinely compete with firearms, shooting rifles, standing, offhand, not rested, at 200 yards. It still doesn’t change my view that most people can’t hit a man sized target with a firearm at 100 yards unless they are solidly rested at a bench. Hell, some can’t hit it even when rested.
And I can certainly say that even though you hit it, and I probably (or at least possibly) would also hit it, I wouldn’t consider taking a 150 yard shot at a boar with an open sighted lever action 45-70. To me the risk of just wounding the animal would be too high. With a .308 I might think differently, but you are definitely pushing 45-70 ballistics out at 150 yards as even a modern Hornady Leverevolution 325 gr bullet is dropping 10” at 200 (with a 100 yard zero). Again, my opinion.
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I appreciate all the options. Topic was on airgun and beyond 100 yards. This includes hunting and pesting. Just cause one animal is a pest doesnt mean it should suffer for hours or days till they give up. Example a squirrel shouldn't suffer with a wound cause its a pest, vs a deer. I'm a hunter, I hunt for food. I do not shoot for sport or pesting. Not sure how ppl even get entertained taking a life for sport/trophy. Anyway, when I hunt, I make sure its a quick and humane kill. The less the animal suffer the better I feel. As for firarm/pb, I'm sure those easily capable to reach out pass 100 yards and father given the type of gun and ammunition being use. But for airgun, pass 100 yards is reaching its limit. Sure I've seen ppl take squirrels, monkey, birds, parriedogs, etc out to say 300 yards, but how many of those are wound shot and not kill shot. They only show the kill shot ones, but there have to be many wounded animals running away at that distance.
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And you would be correct on the Hornady. Which was taken into consideration on the shot, along with the crosswind.
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If you guys think famous YouTubers are not clipping pigeons and other animals on distance shots, you got an awakening coming. That said, I do think the best channels out there try their hardest to be ethical. I think they do. Just like all hunters. Unfortunately, there is always a margin of error, and with airguns that margin is increased because often the animal (like a pigeon) is able to react to the sound or has already started to move. I think ethical shots can be taken on pigeons and so on at distance, I just think the efficacy decreases after 120y or so. So yes, I am in agreement with @Crosman999 about the editing (the presumption that a skilled content creator never uses their editing to their advantage). Even on the darkside with 5.56 I had distance shots that would have been unethical, so of course distances past 120y with an airgun should be assessed qualitatively by each shooter. To be honest, most of my shots are inside 70y, probably 90%
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Shooting whatever gun, air or powder, you have no business, in my opinion, taking a shot you are not very confident in making properly. I wouldn’t shoot off hand at an animal at 100 yards with a .308 because I wasn't 95% confident in making an immediate kill. If I were pesting I won’t take a shot past 50 yards for the same reason. Several years ago I was walking along a creek and found four dead deer that had been shot out of season and thrown in the water. They weren’t shot for food but just for the hell of it. I got very angry at such behavior and to this day have absolutely no tolerance for it. I have what would be considered a politically incorrect point of view on how people who do that sort of thing should be dealt with. To finally answer the original question, if you don’t know for certain that the gun can deliver a proper shot at that distance and that you are capable of making the shot then no, shooting at an animal 200-500 yards away with any kind of rifle is not ethical and should not be taken. Just my opinion.
Rick H.
Rick H.
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It all boils down to your equipment and your capabilities. No different with firearms. If Jonny long range pigeon popper can put 10 slugs in a 2” bull at 200, 250 or 300 yards, then he knows his gun can do it. The rest is up to him. If he can’t, well then he’s just throwing Hail Marys and hoping for some highlight reel material. Not responsible, but it gets views and sells a bunch of stuff to the clueless. I personally don’t watch those type of videos because just like full court game winning shots, ESPN doesn’t show all the failed shots to put things in perspective.
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As a society, I feel like we are generally distanced from death, and even the circle of life. And I know that we've all had loved ones pass away. BUT we are a relatively long-lived species, so even the death of a loved one (at least for most of us) is not a frequent occurrence. I would hazard a guess that the majority of us, partly due to our modern cookie-cutter neighborhood lifestyle, are sort of ultra-sensitized to death.
In these ethical debates we often hear that posters want "the death to be quick, so the animal doesn't suffer." Unfortunately, the normal (not smacked by a pellet) death of animals is rarely that. Pdogs for example, number one pest species I take out. Their normal predators (and what also kills many many many more than I can with pellets on the couple days a month that I have time to go shoot them): hawks, coyotes, badgers. You think the hawke that swoops down to snag a pdog off the top of it's burrow thinks to make sure it kills its dinner quickly as it sinks its talons into whatever part of the critter it can? Heck no, it grabs it however it can, a closed talon with any part of a pdog inside it is a full belly, whether the talon closed on the back end of the animal or pierced the vitals. That same hawke will also rip that still alive prairie dog into bit size chunks, slowly and methodically. The coyote also doesn't care if the pdog is alive or not as it rips and crunches. Badgers? probably the most traumatizing of all for a pdog. Badgers literally dig them out. Imagine being a pdog, dead-ended into a long tunnel, knowing and hearing something with huge claws and bigger teeth and an even bigger attitude digging it's way towards you, slowly enlarging your burrow enough for his fat arse, and his appetite, to make it to you. Nothing you can do but wait. And again, once that badger gets to you, he ain't gonna ever so carefully and delicately, politely snip your spinal cord so the calories your corpes provides to him aren't so painfully ripped from your bones.
Okay, okay, yeah graphic. But also what actually happens all day every day before, during, and after we've left the pdog fields to go home and chill out in our air conditioned houses.
I grew up on a ranch. The small critters mentioned above are short-lived, but even with cattle, death is never very far. Mother cow will get infection from prolapse, or foot rot, or snake bite, or get caught in a barbwire fence or a piece of wire on their foot that cripples them. Any and all of those often result in having to put her down. Baby calf will break its neck when it hits the ground at birth, still alive, but paralyzed. Or coyotes ate the baby as it was still being born and now what's left of the calf is dead inside and momma has systemic infection from the decay that set in before we found her. Gotta put em down.
I trapped a couple winters to sell the fur. Lots of death there too. We lived out on this ranch, miles from town. All kinds of critters would wander into the yard acting funky, our typical conclusion was rabies. So, I'd shoot em and carefully dispose of the corpse (my dad couldn't ever hit anything so I was the designated shooter). Usually skunks, possums, and coons. Had wild hogs that would RUIN a hay meadow, rooting and digging holes. So we eradicated them as well. Lots of death. But that's nature and the real-world that exists where there isn't asphalt and curbs and manicured lawns.
All that sounds morbid and graphic, but when you've been extensively exposed to death (and I don't mean going out on Saturday's and shooting a couple pest birds for the farmers) it becomes normal. That understanding that one animal has to die for another to survive becomes more real.
So, when I go pesting on my family's ranch or any of the other properties where I've been asked to come shoot pdogs or ground squirrels or pigeons or euro doves or starlings, I'm there to kill em cuz that's what I've been asked to do. Yes it's fun, but it's also fulfilling a need. Those ranchers need the #s of pest animals reduced. There's no ethics at play. It's not a human or even a game animal. I'm not going to eat it. I usually don't even feel the need to get up close and see the corpse. So, yes I'll take long hale marys, and not even bat an eye about it. I sleep just fine at night.
In these ethical debates we often hear that posters want "the death to be quick, so the animal doesn't suffer." Unfortunately, the normal (not smacked by a pellet) death of animals is rarely that. Pdogs for example, number one pest species I take out. Their normal predators (and what also kills many many many more than I can with pellets on the couple days a month that I have time to go shoot them): hawks, coyotes, badgers. You think the hawke that swoops down to snag a pdog off the top of it's burrow thinks to make sure it kills its dinner quickly as it sinks its talons into whatever part of the critter it can? Heck no, it grabs it however it can, a closed talon with any part of a pdog inside it is a full belly, whether the talon closed on the back end of the animal or pierced the vitals. That same hawke will also rip that still alive prairie dog into bit size chunks, slowly and methodically. The coyote also doesn't care if the pdog is alive or not as it rips and crunches. Badgers? probably the most traumatizing of all for a pdog. Badgers literally dig them out. Imagine being a pdog, dead-ended into a long tunnel, knowing and hearing something with huge claws and bigger teeth and an even bigger attitude digging it's way towards you, slowly enlarging your burrow enough for his fat arse, and his appetite, to make it to you. Nothing you can do but wait. And again, once that badger gets to you, he ain't gonna ever so carefully and delicately, politely snip your spinal cord so the calories your corpes provides to him aren't so painfully ripped from your bones.
Okay, okay, yeah graphic. But also what actually happens all day every day before, during, and after we've left the pdog fields to go home and chill out in our air conditioned houses.
I grew up on a ranch. The small critters mentioned above are short-lived, but even with cattle, death is never very far. Mother cow will get infection from prolapse, or foot rot, or snake bite, or get caught in a barbwire fence or a piece of wire on their foot that cripples them. Any and all of those often result in having to put her down. Baby calf will break its neck when it hits the ground at birth, still alive, but paralyzed. Or coyotes ate the baby as it was still being born and now what's left of the calf is dead inside and momma has systemic infection from the decay that set in before we found her. Gotta put em down.
I trapped a couple winters to sell the fur. Lots of death there too. We lived out on this ranch, miles from town. All kinds of critters would wander into the yard acting funky, our typical conclusion was rabies. So, I'd shoot em and carefully dispose of the corpse (my dad couldn't ever hit anything so I was the designated shooter). Usually skunks, possums, and coons. Had wild hogs that would RUIN a hay meadow, rooting and digging holes. So we eradicated them as well. Lots of death. But that's nature and the real-world that exists where there isn't asphalt and curbs and manicured lawns.
All that sounds morbid and graphic, but when you've been extensively exposed to death (and I don't mean going out on Saturday's and shooting a couple pest birds for the farmers) it becomes normal. That understanding that one animal has to die for another to survive becomes more real.
So, when I go pesting on my family's ranch or any of the other properties where I've been asked to come shoot pdogs or ground squirrels or pigeons or euro doves or starlings, I'm there to kill em cuz that's what I've been asked to do. Yes it's fun, but it's also fulfilling a need. Those ranchers need the #s of pest animals reduced. There's no ethics at play. It's not a human or even a game animal. I'm not going to eat it. I usually don't even feel the need to get up close and see the corpse. So, yes I'll take long hale marys, and not even bat an eye about it. I sleep just fine at night.
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That’s a nice and very true story. But I would like to add that the badger, coyote and hawk are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. They have no choice or they will die. Will the hawk try to dig a PD out of the burrow with its talons and beak? Will the badger climb a tree and try to swoop down on a PD? No. We are the more intelligent species with more tools. That’s where I believe the ethics thing comes into play. Another difference is it’s your ranch and you’re eliminating things that affect your livelihood. Recreational vidiots on YouTube, different story. They truly don’t give a crap about the farmer. They just want to shoot poop. No videos of them helping bail hay because they care so much. Very transparent if you look from the right angle.
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@Franklink, I believe it’s understood, but not overly contemplated. That many prey species are eaten while alive by predators. Some “human” predators “humanize” their prey. Hence, humane, quick kills... That said, I don’t believe any of your long range shots are “Hail Marys”…
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I can't speak for anyone but myself. I pest tree rats, chipmunks, rats, mice and an occasional Starling attacking the native woodpeckers in my yard.
Having said that... I try VERY hard to make clean kills no matter what I am pesting. The longest pesting kills I have made were 3 tree rats at ~75-80 yards, but I practiced that shot (shooting pears and blades of grass) for weeks before I actually tried the shot (had the opportunity) on the first tree rat. Most of my pesting shots are 40 yards or less and most are/used to be 25 yards or less. Lately, they range more in the 30-40 yard range or less than 10 yards.
Anyway, at least for me, if I am shooting to kill, I want to make sure that I am confident in my equipment and myself to make a clean kill. Of course, nobody is perfect, but striving for a clean kill is noble in and of itself when taking a life. I use the same regimen when I train with my self defense weapons.
BTW, no, it doesn't bother me in the least to kill a fly, flea, ant, roach, etc. And I don't worry if they suffer. LOL!
Having said that... I try VERY hard to make clean kills no matter what I am pesting. The longest pesting kills I have made were 3 tree rats at ~75-80 yards, but I practiced that shot (shooting pears and blades of grass) for weeks before I actually tried the shot (had the opportunity) on the first tree rat. Most of my pesting shots are 40 yards or less and most are/used to be 25 yards or less. Lately, they range more in the 30-40 yard range or less than 10 yards.
Anyway, at least for me, if I am shooting to kill, I want to make sure that I am confident in my equipment and myself to make a clean kill. Of course, nobody is perfect, but striving for a clean kill is noble in and of itself when taking a life. I use the same regimen when I train with my self defense weapons.
BTW, no, it doesn't bother me in the least to kill a fly, flea, ant, roach, etc. And I don't worry if they suffer. LOL!
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The short version of what I was trying to say is that why should we agonize over a less than perfect shot when 99% of prey species deaths (most pests) are going to be slow and horrible?
And yes, I try to hit them in the vitals for quick deaths, but I don't feel like I failed or I'm a horrible person when I hit them somewhere else.
And yes, I try to hit them in the vitals for quick deaths, but I don't feel like I failed or I'm a horrible person when I hit them somewhere else.
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