Events 2024 AAFTA National's Registration

[MattSawyer]

Just to clarify the Course format for the 2024 AAFTA Nationals, it is one large 50 lane course that is ruffly 200 yards long, broken up into two 25 lane courses. The lane numbers will be set up in the following format. Lane 1 Blue and the next lane will be lane 1 Yellow, lane 2 Blue then lane 2 Yellow until we get to lane 25.
WFTF and Open shooters will be shooting 1 shot per target 2 targets per lane for 25 lanes each day totaling 100 shots overall. Hunter shooters will be following the traditional AAFTA format 2 shots per target, 2 targets per lane for 15 lanes, totaling 120 shots overall.

For example, Hunter shooters will be assigned the Yellow course lanes 10 -25 day one, then the Blue course lanes 1-15 for day 2 making a 120 points total for the weekend. Please send me an email to [email protected] if anyone has any questions or concerns such as Magnetic wheel concerns or anything else. I will make a map and post it on this thread.

In response to the magnetic Focus wheel discussion if it was removed or came off a rifle while making a rifle safe between lanes that person won't be disqualified. I'm sure that an exception can be made for anyone having that issue. The rule was made so that people wouldn't gain an advantage or cheat by taking equipment on and off a rifle during competition.

Thank you

 

[Cloud9AG]

The magnetic wheel not being allowed to be removed is ridiculous I have never experienced this in any match I have attended. This along with the changes to one shot per lane is out of line with standard AAFTA events. If this is an effort to get people ready for the Worlds it should have been done in a match other than the nationals. I was looking forward to shooting the nationals this year but am now seriously reconsidering it

Please read Matt's last post about format and magnetic wheels, and I think your concerns will be answered. Thanks.

 

[Cloud9AG]

Please see a clarification post from the AAFTA BOG on the Nats format here

 

[Scotchmo]

2024 revisions to AAFTA handbook. Page 27
4. Revision to Grand Prix scoring procedure to reflect the merit within each individual class.

This means highest score in each class or division will get 100% for GP scoring and scaling downwards from there. The highest overall score will not be used to determine percentage scoring for everyone.

The latest GP scoring rules are based an individual’s actual score normalized to a 120 point match, multiplied by the Troyer factor relative to a 36T course. That’s how I read it.

You don’t get 100% for being the the high scorer in your Division/Class. Only the high match shooter can possibly get 100% (120 pts). And that requires a perfect score on a 36T course. All other shooter’s scores are individually calculated, but they still end up being a percentage of the high match score, same as before.

I don’t know what they mean by:

Revision to Grand Prix scoring procedure to reflect the merit within each individual class.

 

[Cloud9AG]

Revision to Grand Prix scoring procedure to reflect the merit within each individual class, means the classes are scored individually rather than normalized to the highest score of the match, and we believe this change realizes the value or merit of scores within each class. Don’t read too much into a short statement about a rule revision

 

[Scotchmo]

Revision to Grand Prix scoring procedure to reflect the merit within each individual class, means the classes are scored individually rather than normalized to the highest score of the match, and we believe this change realizes the value or merit of scores within each class. Don’t read too much into a short statement about a rule revision

That sounds like propaganda to garner acceptance of the new rules, as there is nothing in the new system (or the old system for that matter) that “realizes the value or merit within each class”. Your score gives you the same number of GP points as you would get regardless if you are competing in Hunter, Open, WFTF, PCP, or Piston.

 

[Cloud9AG]

That sounds like propaganda to garner acceptance of the new rules, as there is nothing in the new system (or the old system for that matter) that “realizes the value or merit within each class”. Your score gives you the same number of GP points as you would get regardless if you are competing in Hunter, Open, WFTF, PCP, or Piston.

The new rule will give competitors GP points based on their score, the number of shots, and the Troyer rating rather than normalizing their score to the highest score overall of the GP as in the old rule. Therefore competitor points are awarded based on shooting accomplishments and not based on how someone else did. This rule change was implemented based on many requests from the shooters to alter the way GP points were calculated and earned. The BOG listened and changed the rule, hopefully without any propaganda necessary.
Regards

 

[shootermeb]

... (120 pts). And that requires a perfect score on a 36T course.

Assuming the current season results are correct and up to date on the AAFTA website, https://www.aafta.org/current-season-results.html, it looks like it's possible to score more than 120 points per GP. Someone has a 124 for their Sonoran Desert GP score.

 

[Scotchmo]

Assuming the current season results are correct and up to date on the AAFTA website, https://www.aafta.org/current-season-results.html, it looks like it's possible to score more than 120 points per GP. Someone has a 124 for their Sonoran Desert GP score.

Possibly they are using some environmental factors to increase the difficulty beyond 36T? That will allow for added wind difficulty, which is probably good but highly subjective as wind severity is not taken into account. A course with 5mph winds will get the same rating as a course with 10mph winds. Easy to guess which course will give the higher scores.

In the past, 100 GP points per match was the maximum. With the new system, if it includes environmental factors, 180 GP points per match is theoretically possible.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Possibly they are using some environmental factors to increase the difficulty beyond 36T? That will allow for added wind difficulty, which is probably good but highly subjective as wind severity is not taken into account. A course with 5mph winds will get the same rating as a course with 10mph winds. Easy to guess which course will give the higher scores.

In the past, 100 GP points per match was the maximum. With the new system, if it includes environmental factors, 180 GP points per match is theoretically possible.

AHHH and there in lies the rub...
A match director's difficulty on deciding what targets are in a "dark or shady", "up or downhill" or "Windy" situation. In most cases, those conditions will change over the time period the course is shot by the competitors... how does the MD make that call? And more importantly, how can ALL match directors across all the clubs grade those conditions equally?

Wayne

 

[Cloud9AG]

Here are the GP points rules from our website that include environmental effects this year as requested by the clubs and shooters:

GP scores will be normalized based on the number of shots in the match and the course difficulty.

Based on the GP rules, the maximum number of shots in a GP rifle match is 120 and a GP pistol match is 60, and the maximum difficulty is 36T. Each shooter's score will be normalized to the maximum match shots allowed (120 or 60), then scaled based on the ratio of the course difficulty to the maximum course difficulty (36T) including environmental effects. The shooter’s score is normalized as in the following equation:

(Shooter Score/(Match Shots/120 or 60))*(Course Difficulty/36) = GP Normalized Score
Grand Prix points and ranking are based on the best 3 normalized scores from each Grand Prix where each shooter competes.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Here are the GP points rules from our website that include environmental effects this year as requested by the clubs and shooters:

GP scores will be normalized based on the number of shots in the match and the course difficulty.

Based on the GP rules, the maximum number of shots in a GP rifle match is 120 and a GP pistol match is 60, and the maximum difficulty is 36T. Each shooter's score will be normalized to the maximum match shots allowed (120 or 60), then scaled based on the ratio of the course difficulty to the maximum course difficulty (36T) including environmental effects. The shooter’s score is normalized as in the following equation:

(Shooter Score/(Match Shots/120 or 60))*(Course Difficulty/36) = GP Normalized Score
Grand Prix points and ranking are based on the best 3 normalized scores from each Grand Prix where each shooter competes.

Yes, I think we understand the new formula now.

The problem Scott and I are pointing out, is the inconsistent way the match directors have to decide the "Environmental" factors that can take the score higher than the possible number of targets on the course.
Maybe we need to force the clubs to own a weather station to record the wind speed during the match, and use angle finders to record the actual angle and some way to gauge the darkness factors.
Then, rework the formula to use the actual wind, angle and darkness of the targets in a more accurate and consistent way across all the clubs Grand Prix matches.

Also, maybe in the future, we can announce to ALL the clubs that a rule change is in the works and get ALL the clubs responses and ideas about the proposed rule changes.... so we don't launch a new rule that is not completely thought out..

Wayne

 

[Cloud9AG]

Wayne, I hear your position and believe that all MD's do their best to put on fair GP matches by following our rules as posted. I have no reason to call any of them into question at this time.

 

[Scotchmo]

The other problem is that GP scores are now based on how difficult the average target is. The average targets don’t get missed much by the top shooters. A course with all 36T and low standard deviation will have higher top scores than a 36T with a high standard deviation. The standard deviation gives an estimate of the number of 40T to 50T targets that are likely present. Those 40T and 50T targets are the ones that cause more misses. A course with a 36T and a very low standard deviation means that there are probably no 40T or 50T targets, so it’s an easier course.

If you are going to use the Troyer as a factor of course difficulty, you should probably include the standard deviation in the calculation.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Wayne, I hear your position and believe that all MD's do their best to put on fair GP matches by following our rules as posted. I have no reason to call any of them into question at this time.

I have NO reason to doubt every match director will do their best to gauge the wind, elevation and darkness fairly either. But without an actual measurement of those factors at every GP match, that is included in the formula, then there is no way those factors will be gauged the same by all match directors.

Like Scott said, the wind factor can legitimately be checked in the AAFTA target course planner whether its a 4-5 mph wind or a 25 mph wind like we have in Nevada some years. How can that be fair? The elevation angled shots in Nevada are around 30%. What angle do most MDs check the "Elevation" box when filling out the course planner?.. 15%? Is that fair?

And Scott's more important point about the standard deviation is really a big issue for fairness in the Grand Prix scoring.

I really think a committee should be appointed to work out a new formula for next year or better still to rescore this years' GP if possible with a more fair formula. At least test this years calculations with the current formula against the new formula the committee comes up with for fairness.

I hope you include Scott Hull's excellent math mind on the committee.

Wayne

 

[Airgunoregon]

I have NO reason to doubt every match director will do their best to gauge the wind, elevation and darkness fairly either. But without an actual measurement of those factors at every GP match, that is included in the formula, then there is no way those factors will be gauged the same by all match directors.

Like Scott said, the wind factor can legitimately be checked in the AAFTA target course planner whether its a 4-5 mph wind or a 25 mph wind like we have in Nevada some years. How can that be fair? The elevation angled shots in Nevada are around 30%. What angle do most MDs check the "Elevation" box when filling out the course planner?.. 15%? Is that fair?

And Scott's more important point about the standard deviation is really a big issue for fairness in the Grand Prix scoring.

I really think a committee should be appointed to work out a new formula for next year or better still to rescore this years' GP if possible with a more fair formula. At least test this years calculations with the current formula against the new formula the committee comes up with for fairness.

I hope you include Scott Hull's excellent math mind on the committee.

Wayne

 

[bradtroyer]

A good match director will not setup a course with a low standard deviation. If all of the targets are a 36 difficulty, then it wouldn't be a very good course and I doubt a lot of shooters would return to that match. Most match directors follow the approach of about 1/3 straightforward, 1/3 moderate, and 1/3 hard so that all skill levels can hit targets and enjoy the match. The GP equation may not be perfect but with some honest estimations of the environmental factors, it will compare the competitors based on their shooting merits and not the highest score at a match.

 

[Airgunoregon]

A good match director will not setup a course with a low standard deviation. If all of the targets are a 36 difficulty, then it wouldn't be a very good course and I doubt a lot of shooters would return to that match. Most match directors follow the approach of about 1/3 straightforward, 1/3 moderate, and 1/3 hard so that all skill levels can hit targets and enjoy the match. The GP equation may not be perfect but with some honest estimations of the environmental factors, it will compare the competitors based on their shooting merits and not the highest score at a match.

Brad,
That is exactly the point that Scott and I are making. The current GP scoring formula is a Motivation to set a course you don't want.... IF they want their competitors to score as high as possible in a GP match.
If match directors want competitors to attend their match instead of another, they will be motivated to set a 36T course with a low standard Dev.
Why have a formula that motivates those courses?

Why not change the formula to Encourage a High Standard Dev. to challenge all the shooters to improve their skills and decide the actual best shooters fairly across all the clubs GP matches?

I think the AAFTA BoG does want that, but I think this formula is not getting it done..

 

[Airgunoregon]

Brad,

We could... instead of remaking All the formula, we could require the GP matches to conform to a certain number of shots, certain Standard Dev., But, There has to be some sliding scale or degree of wind velocity and angle the target is exposed to.

Is it that hard to add this to the formula? I know I can't, but I bet there are some among us who can..

 

[humbled.ag]

You'll have to add moving then reseting between targets to that list. It messes with pace and concentration.