.25 Heavy pellet problem for guns with Poly barrels

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Hi Mike, I agree with your comments regarding the general variability between batches. Granted, no doubt in your position you have observed many more examples of it than I have, but I've seen it enough times that I never expect to get the same thing twice. However I think this example with the .25 heavies is different. The 34gr MKII was introduced specifically to address an issue some people had with the MKI, in particular compatibility with certain magazines due to the large skirts. So to the extent that other features of the MKI and MKII may wax and wane over time, I would expect the larger skirt / smaller skirt distinction to remain. Otherwise there's nothing to distinguish them and the versioning loses all meaning.
 
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I actually do understand the intended differences between the two....it just wouldn’t surprise me at all if the tolerances on the two were loose enough for the overlap to occur unintentionally.

Im too tired to go dig through some 8.4s....but I could show you plenty of “mk1” and “mk2” 8.4s even though no such distinction is supposed to exist. Lol

I’ve often wondered if they have some old guy that makes their dies by hand with a dremel tool....because it’s not difficult with today’s CNC technology to replicate something exactly to very tight tolerances....and the differences I’ve seen are massive.

Mike 
 
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....it just wouldn’t surprise me at all if the tolerances on the two were loose enough for the overlap to occur unintentionally.
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Okay that makes sense, what you're saying about the tolerances. That's possible. Over time I had developed a certain degree of confidence about JSB's nominal skirt diameters. I've only checked a few tins of the heavies but the MKI has tended to run very close to 6.68mm and the MKII almost a tenth smaller at 6.60mm, and a few guys like Centercut and Drumsnguns have gotten very similar measurements. On top of that, the 6.60mm is a close match to the 25.4gr Kings, leading me to think the skirts on the original heavies are indeed abnormally large.
 
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I’ve often wondered if they have some old guy that makes their dies by hand with a dremel tool....because it’s not difficult with today’s CNC technology to replicate something exactly to very tight tolerances....and the differences I’ve seen are massive.

Mike
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Got a good laugh out of the Dremel comment. Dremel: the tool of choice if the goal is to haphazardly remove material. I can't think of very many times where projects went well once the Dremel got involved. Dremel's are best used on areas that aren't going to be seen. Lol. 
 
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If you carefully inspect 20 different die numbers of 8.4s…you can easily see with your naked eye many, many differences in what is supposed to be the same pellet.

Mike, I agree with what Mike is saying. It's not a matter of a particular die's specs being off, the differences between the MKI and MKII are similar to being two totally different pellets. Putting II's into a tin not marked MKII can only be explained as done intentionally. At this time I don't recall if anyone has found MKI's in tins marked MKII, the common issue is the II's being placed in the MKI tins.

Managing to continue putting a specific shaped pellet into tins meant for pellets from a different designed mold for a company that is known globally for it's quality and product is no accident. It can only come down to a mindset of 'it doesn't matter to us what customers want', or it's a cost saving practice possibly due to how the MKII's are made or sales of that pellet? or they recieve batches of tins not marked correctly and just use them i.e... filling regular tins with II's and when they get pulled for an order by a different person, that person won't have a clue what's in the tin so the order is for MKI's so that's the tins they grab.

What ever the reason is, it's not accidental, it's been happening for years, and this is probably the first time a group of ppl are speaking up to the company and the company really needs to address the issue.
 
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Hello --

I caught this thread couple nights ago and as had an order of King Hvy mkIIs in the mails took an interest. I just got a RAW with poly barrel. Order arrived today and laid out the selection of 34gr's I have for trying out. Photo below.

If I understand how to visually differentiate between the King Heavy and the King Heavy mkII, it is cup depth, skirt thickness, &c. So, for the private label brands I have here, the FX's are analogous to King Heavy and the Rangemaster Emperor's seemingly designed along the King Heavy mkII's?

I can say that in overall finish of the pellets the Rangemasters and the King Heavies I have from last year are the least beat up looking. This order I just received of mkII's are just ugly as all get out. Will see they all shoot sometime in the next week.

Mark

IMG_9318.1621149468.JPG

 
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Yes Mark what you're showing is what I've seen also with the exception that the FX I bought looked much better overall than any of the others. I guess there's good and bad production days? I was very disappointed in the higher priced 'match grade' RangeMasters, the batch I recieved look very rough, definitely not what I'd consider match grade.

My .25 condor hasn't liked the MKII's previously but if the rain slacks up I'll be giving all 4 of those pellets another try in the slower fps ranges around 900fps or so.
 
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I think what disappoints me the most is that the US distributor doesn’t even admit there is a problem. I’m not sure he even knows the difference between the two. What he told Pyramyd when they asked was that the Mk2 has the larger diameter skirt, so you know he doesn’t get it and no way talked directly to JSB. As discussed above in numerous posts, the Mk1 skirt is about .08mm larger in diameter than the Mk2 plus the cavity is significantly deeper on the Mk1. This can’t be that hard, it’s not rocket science...
 
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Yes Mark what you're showing is what I've seen also with the exception that the FX I bought looked much better overall than any of the others. I guess there's good and bad production days? I was very disappointed in the higher priced 'match grade' RangeMasters, the batch I recieved look very rough, definitely not what I'd consider match grade.

My .25 condor hasn't liked the MKII's previously but if the rain slacks up I'll be giving all 4 of those pellets another try in the slower fps ranges around 900fps or so.
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Not to get to far off-topic, but my TalonP shot so-so with JSB Kings, but shot the AA Field 25.4s great at the same 75 YD. Other day, the Rangemaster King 25.4s made short work of obliterating a 2" target at 75 YD, out of the tin. Looking forward to trying these Rangemaster Emperor 34s.
 
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FYI - I emailed [email protected] on May 11 and have not received any reply. I emailed them again this morning (5/17) and cc'd [email protected]. I'll report back if I get a reply from either of them.
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I heard back from Jay that same day saying JSB will be issuing a statement regarding this issue in the "next couple of days".
 
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That’s great. Thanks to everyone that has contacted retailers, Predator International and JSB. Fingers crossed that the answer is that they acknowledge the problem and will continue to make Mk1 and Mk2. Thanks also to AGN, without a forum like this it would be much harder to put pressure on the manufacturers to improve their Quality Control. 
 
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Well, the big lie continues. Apparently Pyramyd Air has talked to either Predator or JSB since they now have this on their web site. 

Please note: The only difference between the original King Heavy and the King Heavy MkII pellets is the outer diameter of the skirt. This dimension on the original MKI pellets are 6.68 - 6.70 mm while the MKII pellets measure 6.58 - 6.60 mm. The appearance of the skirt or back of the pellet can vary.

However, I just got four tins each of Mk2 and Mk1 and ALL the pellets have the 6.60 skirt diameter. Maybe if they repeat the big lie enough times we’ll believe them?
 
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This video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwJ2z4Jhtlg&ab_channel=AirRifleActivities ) still doesn't account for the different depth of the hole in the back (which improves the way it shoots in my poly barrel) and just because it goes through a chrono at the same speed or better in the case of the MK2, doesn't mean it shoots down range any better.

And it doesn't take into account finding MK2's in an MK1 tin and vise versa. Or for finding BOTH in the same tin. But I suppose they are just going to maintain that it never happened. All of us who spent hundreds of dollars and didn't get what we want are supposed to just suck it up. Buy more pellets and maybe you'll get the ones you like. Sorry folks, it doesn't work like that.

My respect for the JSB .25 cal pellets just went out the window. Watch the classifieds here on AGN. I'll be selling a LOT of JSB .25 33.94gr pellets.



Crusher


 
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Well, the big lie continues. Apparently Pyramyd Air has talked to either Predator or JSB since they now have this on their web site. 

Please note: The only difference between the original King Heavy and the King Heavy MkII pellets is the outer diameter of the skirt. This dimension on the original MKI pellets are 6.68 - 6.70 mm while the MKII pellets measure 6.58 - 6.60 mm. The appearance of the skirt or back of the pellet can vary.

However, I just got four tins each of Mk2 and Mk1 and ALL the pellets have the 6.60 skirt diameter. Maybe if they repeat the big lie enough times we’ll believe them?
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A common theme in our world today. 

I'm very interested to see how this all plays out. While I haven't owned a .25 in a very long time I have always had .22s and have had issues with 18gr consistency starting all the way back with my first Mrod 5 years ago. Some shoot great and others just ok. I seem to have better consistency luck between the 16gr pellets and usually buy the AA 16gr. My EVOL actually didn't love the 18gr with 3 different "designs" and preferred 16gr variants. I'm actually going to be trying some of the H&N 18gr now to see if those shoot well as they seem to be more consistent.

The Heavies are clearly designed to be different and doesn't make sense that they could have made that big of a mistake on MK2s in the original MK1 tins to be an accident.
 
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I just returned four tins of the King Heavy (Mk1), and Pyramyd Air sent the no cost FEDEX shipping label. I triple checked this morning about the OD, and three pellets from each tin of the King Heavy were in the 6.57 to 6.60mm range. I did the same for the Mk2 (four tins, three pellets per tin) with the EXACT same results. FYI, my REAL King Heavy has OD of skirts at 6.68mm, plus the actual skirt is thinner and the cavity is significantly deeper by almost a mm. So despite what it now says on the PA web site, they too were fed a line of crap from JSB (or PI, not sure) and didn't bother to CHECK THE DATA before adding the statement to their web site. If I had to guess, I'd say JSB no longer makes King Heavy pellets and just fills the King Heavy tins with Mk2 pellets. If this is true, I'll more than likely get a .30 barrel kit for my Delta Wolf...

For everyone that buys King Heavy thinking that this new statement is true, I suggest you measure the skirt diameter then if not correct return the pellets to PA. They'll pay for return shipping since what they sent isn't what you bought...
 
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PA putting the statement on their site does at least 2 things:

1. It raises awareness of the difference between the originals and the MKII.
2. It makes this difference official. If and when a dispute arises, there’s an objective way to settle it: measure the skirts. 

While I think it’s a fair criticism to say this mixup has been going on for far too long, this recent acknowledgment does not suggest to me that they are now mindlessly parroting a line from JSB or PI, or that they failed to check the data. Why? Well, it’s too soon to say but clearly if they have not put in place a quality assurance plan to verify their stock is what the labels say they are, PA has put themselves on the hook for a flood of returns. Why bother to publish the difference and open themselves up to that risk, and then just carry on with no corrective action?
 
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PA putting the statement on their site does at least 2 things:

1. It raises awareness of the difference between the originals and the MKII.
2. It makes this difference official. If and when a dispute arises, there’s an objective way to settle it: measure the skirts. 

While I think it’s a fair criticism to say this mixup has been going on for far too long, this recent acknowledgment does not suggest to me that they are now mindlessly parroting a line from JSB or PI, or that they failed to check the data. Why? Well, it’s too soon to say but clearly if they have not put in place a quality assurance plan to verify their stock is what the labels say they are, PA has put themselves on the hook for a flood of returns. Why bother to publish the difference and open themselves up to that risk, and then just carry on with no corrective action?
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Makes sense. Good points....
 
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