• *The discussion of the creation, fabrication, or modification of airgun moderators is prohibited. The discussion of any "adapters" used to convert an airgun moderator to a firearm silencer will result in immediate termination of the account.*

.25 moderator on a .22 gun?

I see confusing quote on sales page for DonnyFL:
"Ronin is big and bold, but it looks great even on compact bullpups. “Maybe a little overkill for the .177 and .22 but it looks so damn awesome!” – Donny"
But its only available for sale in .25 and .30.

Can I use on it a .22 gun? Would it cause any problems? Would it not work as well as a made-for-.22 moderator?
 
it wont have any noticeable impact .. doubt you could tell by ear any difference on a .177 for example if you tried a .177 and then a .30 .. doubt you could tell much if you went from a tanto to a ronin either, very little on anything under .30 .. get one that looks and fits good on the gun ..
 
I can attest to this. I have one dedicated .17 suppressor. The rest are all .25 since that’s my largest caliber. If there’s a difference using a .25 on a .17, I can’t hear it. Physical size of the can makes way more difference then bore size in my opinion. I use my .25 cans on my .17 and have had good success. So, if it was me, depending the suppressor, I’d buy the largest caliber suppressor I’m planning to shoot. I’m sure there’s a difference in sound and maybe performance, but I don’t think it’s a game changer in either case. Save the money and diversify.

Andy
 
Actually the diameter of the exit hole in the moderator makes a significant difference in how much quieting is working.
Take a piece of blue painters tape and wrap it over the muzzle. Then shoot through it. Have someone standing at 3 o'clock a few feet away from the muzzle with their back turned decide which is louder, with or without the tape. That doesn't mean it will be so much louder that you shouldn't go with a larger caliber than you are shooting.

Clearance is a problem when the manufacturer of the moderator does not have control of the rifle upon which the moderator is going to be mounted. That is why vendors suggest you go with a caliber larger than your intended use. Shrouds are also notorious for clipping with aftermarket suppressors. Generally they are not intended to accept the extra weight and/or may already be a bit off center. Barrel whip inside a shroud can also cause clipping.

If you have one moderator that you intend to move from rifle to rifle (as I did for a long time) going up to the largest caliber you intend to use (+1 if it is a shrouded rifle) won't hurt as much as it will help. Moderators intended for larger calibers are usually a bit larger in volume and volume makes up for a larger than caliber bore (to a degree). You can also go with a slightly larger moderator to compensate for increase in bore diameter.

That said, if you are after maximum quieting, stick with a moderator built for the caliber you are shooting.

As in all things, compromise, is your friend.
 
I shoot .177/22 tantos on all of my 22s. Higher power makes a big difference on the proper size If something clips, it is a gun/barrel/shroud problem that needs fixed. The proper size makes an audible difference for sure and alot of time 2db or more of it is the next cal up. For instance, i had an FX 22/25 mod on a dreamline,the tanto soumded the same on it, but on my katran the tanto 177/22 is less volume but still quieter than the fx mod 22/25.
 
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How much louder is a one or two caliber up muffler, compared to the purpose built one? When does it matter; and why? Rather than quoting some perceived authority or being adamant, I thought some pictures might help.

The attached images show three styles of muffler. One has flat baffles like many DonnyFL models. Another has cones - also very common. The third has a narrow perforated tube, feeding one or more partitioned spaces - in this case two. These latter tubular types are not very common for PCPs, except for "hair curler" mufflers, with much larger bores.

The smaller the bore size of the perforated tube type, the less air or gas escapes past the projectile. This is because that small ID exists all the way down the muffler bore axis. So, smaller is better with this configuration, up to the point where misalignment with the barrel axis can cause the projectile to contact the muffler bore. This long tube type can also aerodynamically steer the projectile, if it is "too tight". That can move the point of impact on target in a less than useful manner, but that is not the main subject of this discussion.

Mufflers using flat or conical baffles have a very short sections of "tube", with long stretches of open space between them. No matter if that space is cylindrical or conical, the air or gas not only can enter that open space radially, we want it to move away from the central bore, so less air or gas is lined up with the bore axis, to exit down the main bore of the muffler.

If you look at the images, it is only when the projectile is travelling through the narrow section of bore of the baffle, that the bore to projectile clearance makes any significant difference with regard to how much air or gas can leak past the projectile, to take a short cut down the bore.

For most of the projectile travel with flat or conical baffles, there is no "bore diameter" near it. I suggest that for DonnyFL style flat baffles, or Marauder shroud conical baffles, bore size matter much less than the blanket statement we often hear or repeat, would suggest:

"Tighter is better"
"No more than 0.02" radial clearance"

So, the answer to what happens when you shoot your .177 through a .25 muffler is; it depends on the architecture, but generally, very little is lost. Just because your meter shows a 2 dB difference is no reason to lament. Most humans can't detect sound level differences of less than 3 dB, and if you think you do, it is probably the tone that is different. I actually think that how pleasant a muffler sounds is more important than the exact dB it measures. The less is sounds like a gun-shot, the better.

I design mufflers with a 1 mm per side clearance on the projectile diameter; then increase the bore clearance from the back towards the front by 1/4 degree per side. So, comparatively "oversize" clearances on small calibers. This very generous clearance is enough to make some people weep. Others like the way my muffler sound and shoot. Many of them measure greater dB reductions than expected with such loose bores. Go figure.


How much does muffler bore clearance matter.JPG
How much does muffler bore clearance matter2.JPG
 
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"Humans can't detect sound level differences of less than 3 dB"

I dislike people making such generalized, stern claims without citation.

"Over a range of frequencies (approximately 500 to 4000 Hz) and levels (approximately 35 to 80 dB SPL) in which humans are most sensitive, listeners can discriminate a change of about one decibel in sound level and about a half of a percent change in tonal frequency."




The reality is not everyone's ear is equal nor their ability to detect changes in perception of sound level.

*edit* Oh poster above me edited all of his incorrect claims out..hmmmm, tsk tsk, at least I quoted him below.*


-Matt
 
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Yep, horsepoop. Subscriber. If a meter reads it consistently, I believe it to be true. It also makes a hige difference to my dogs. Cute name though, if you like anonimity, i guess. I know what i hear from pcps with mufflers and also powder burners. It may look good on paper, but like many engineersand designs, real-life application is not always true to your design.
 
Yep, horsepoop. Subscriber. If a meter reads it consistently, I believe it to be true. It also makes a hige difference to my dogs. Cute name though, if you like anonimity, i guess. I know what i hear from pcps with mufflers and also powder burners. It may look good on paper, but like many engineersand designs, real-life application is not always true to your design.

I did not suggest that a muffler that yields a 130 db reading is OK. I am suggesting that a muffler that reads 88 dB may sound better than one that reads 85 dB.
 
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The human ear is capable of detecting differences in sound intensity, frequency, and timbre. Here's some information on each of these aspects:
  1. Sound Intensity (Loudness):The human ear is sensitive to changes in sound intensity, which is perceived as loudness. The smallest change in sound intensity that the average human can perceive is about 1 decibel (dB). This is known as the just noticeable difference (JND) in loudness. However, the perception of loudness is not linear, and a 10 dB increase in sound intensity is typically perceived as roughly "twice as loud" by most people.
  2. Sound Frequency (Pitch):Human hearing is sensitive to changes in sound frequency, which we perceive as changes in pitch. The just noticeable difference in frequency can vary with the frequency of the sound but is generally in the range of a few Hertz. For example, the JND for a 1,000 Hz tone might be around 3-5 Hz, meaning that you can detect a frequency change of 3-5 Hz when the reference tone is at 1,000 Hz. The JND tends to be smaller at lower frequencies and larger at higher frequencies.
  3. Timbre (Tone Quality):Timbre refers to the quality or character of a sound that distinguishes it from another sound of the same pitch and loudness. Humans are highly sensitive to changes in timbre, but quantifying these differences is more complex than measuring changes in loudness or pitch. Timbral differences can be related to various factors, such as the harmonic content, spectral envelope, and temporal characteristics of the sound. These differences are often difficult to express in precise numerical terms.
It's worth noting that individual variations in auditory perception can exist, and some people may have more acute hearing than others. Additionally, the ability to detect small differences in sound can be influenced by factors like the presence of background noise and the listener's experience and training in music or sound-related fields.

Stop being petty.
 
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The human ear is capable of detecting differences in sound intensity, frequency, and timbre. Here's some information on each of these aspects:
  1. Sound Intensity (Loudness):The human ear is sensitive to changes in sound intensity, which is perceived as loudness. The smallest change in sound intensity that the average human can perceive is about 1 decibel (dB). This is known as the just noticeable difference (JND) in loudness. However, the perception of loudness is not linear, and a 10 dB increase in sound intensity is typically perceived as roughly "twice as loud" by most people.
  2. Sound Frequency (Pitch):Human hearing is sensitive to changes in sound frequency, which we perceive as changes in pitch. The just noticeable difference in frequency can vary with the frequency of the sound but is generally in the range of a few Hertz. For example, the JND for a 1,000 Hz tone might be around 3-5 Hz, meaning that you can detect a frequency change of 3-5 Hz when the reference tone is at 1,000 Hz. The JND tends to be smaller at lower frequencies and larger at higher frequencies.
  3. Timbre (Tone Quality):Timbre refers to the quality or character of a sound that distinguishes it from another sound of the same pitch and loudness. Humans are highly sensitive to changes in timbre, but quantifying these differences is more complex than measuring changes in loudness or pitch. Timbral differences can be related to various factors, such as the harmonic content, spectral envelope, and temporal characteristics of the sound. These differences are often difficult to express in precise numerical terms.
It's worth noting that individual variations in auditory perception can exist, and some people may have more acute hearing than others. Additionally, the ability to detect small differences in sound can be influenced by factors like the presence of background noise and the listener's experience and training in music or sound-related fields.


Matt,

I like the text you posted above. 👍🏼
Very helpful for understanding and explaining to others the issue of "silent airgunning".


I really hope this thread won't turn into a fight of one airgunner against another —
⭐ instead of a fight of all of us fighting united against shot noise.

➠ This is important enough that someone or several someones, please, run some tests to have some hard data. 😊


Thank you. 👍🏼

Matthias
 
Matt,

I like the text you posted above. 👍🏼
Very helpful for understanding and explaining to others the issue of "silent airgunning".


I really hope this thread won't turn into a fight of one airgunner against another —
⭐ instead of a fight of all of us fighting united against shot noise.

➠ This is important enough that someone or several someones, please, run some tests to have some hard data. 😊


Thank you. 👍🏼

Matthias

The ratio of the amplitudes of two sounds whose levels differ by 2 dB is approximately 1.12201845. This is a solvable problem and is based on the relationship between the decibel (dB) scale and the amplitude ratio of two sounds. The decibel scale is logarithmic, so a difference of 2 dB corresponds to a ratio of 10^(2/10) = 1.12201845.

12% is hardly imperceptible...Glad to help others understand.
 
Stubbers, why don't you refute my point about projectile to bore clearance not being as important as many people think? Cite some papers to prove my premise is wrong. After all, that is where the value is. That was the question put to the forum.

If you measure the sound of ten successive shots from a regulated PCP, the readings will span more than 1 dB. Often, more than 3 dB. How many people can tell that the sound level is different, shot to shot (while still on the regulator)? With an unregulated PCP, sure, the sound changes as the pressure drops in the air tank and the valve duration increases.
 
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"Over a range of frequencies (approximately 500 to 4000 Hz) and levels (approximately 35 to 80 dB SPL) in which humans are most sensitive, listeners can discriminate a change of about one decibel in sound level and about a half of a percent change in tonal frequency."

So by bracketing the 35 to 80 dB range, you have excluded airgun noise above 80 dB. Which is pretty much most of them. So, when it comes to the context of this thread, you have lost an argument against yourself. An amazing feat.