30-Yard Challenge

[EPG]

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Leaderboard Update - April 7, 2024​

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Shooters,

Below are our Leaderboards, with submissions through and including April 7th (today).

There were some awesome scores shot this past month…

Notables:

mreynolds shot a perfect 200-20X 30-Challenge with his Thomas .177 ! Marvin actually scored 240 across the 24 targets!!

EPG shot a 200-13X 30-Challenge with his FX Crown .22

EPG shot a 199-17X 30-Masters with his RTI Prophet V1 .177 (he still can’t get to a 200-Masters)

tommyb shot a 197-11X 30-Challenge with his HW100 .22 using RangeMaster pellets.

NaProf shot a 196-13X 30-Challenge with his FX Crown .177 Green Mountain.

RCope shot a 194-13X 30-Challenge with his Air Arms S510XS .177 using Benjamin pellets.

tommyb shot a 194-9X 30-Masters with his HW100 .22 using FX Atomic pellets.

Congrats to all these high scorers.


We also had some new rifles appear on the leaderboard with submissions:

Congrats to JimD on his new AirMaks Caiman X

Congrats to tommyb on his new RAW TX1000X .177

Congrats to NaProf on his new FX King


It nice to see new shooters, new rifles and new types of pellets hitting the leaderboard.

The weather is warmin’ up – so get out there and get some lead downrange !!

-Ed

 

[JimD]

Thanks for posting the leader board, Ed. I'm sure it doesn't pull itself together.

I got the bedroom set about done for my grandson (need to attach knobs to the chest) so I'm starting to shoot more. I shot this target with my P35-25 this afternoon. It shoots 34 grain JSBs about 800 fps. I was frustrated by my first shot on block 10. The wind had been low but has started to pick up. It was blowing left to right. Then suddenly it started blowing really hard for just a minute or two. I was not watching the wind flags so I did not see it happening. I'm a little surprised a 34 grain pellet moved that much. Oh well.... Still not the worst I've done. This is the first master target for this gun so if you want, it can go on the leader board. I think it's a 191 9X.

 

[JimD]

I shot at least one target with my P35-22, P35-25 and a couple with my new Caiman X today. All 30 yard challenge. The only one better than pervious efforts is this 194 13X with the Caiman X. I am shooting H&N Baracuda 18s and this target had them going about 905 fps. It's ES has been pretty high but it came down to 34 on this target - so it seems to be improving. I am gradually dropping velocity and shooting targets to see what seems to work the best. Pretty much no wind here tonight. I have my Arken EPL-4 6-24 on this rifle set to 24X. I think I am still at under 500 pellets through it, probably less than 300, so it is still breaking in. I got it a week ago today.

 

[EPG]

Nice shooting JimmyD!!

I shot 3 cards in our beautiful 69F weather - even the wind was mild:

186 7X 40-Masters with Crown .22
Dreamline Classic .177 card had no score as it was all over the place. I had not shot this rifle in a long time - need to chrono and clean barrel and check it out.

Submitting this 190 9X for the 30-Challenge leaderboard. I had not shot my unregulated, hyper-tuned Akela .177 in months.

I’m especially proud that I shot 190 on my 1st card since last year with the Akela - using a 4-14x scope at 14X. I had no 7’s - incredible since I have to use the gap between the reticle’s center “t” and the vertical crosshair. Otherwise, the center “t” would obscure the entire 10-ring using 14x with this budget FFP scope.

Inexpensive Akela outshot my much more costly FX Dreamline by a mile today - while handicapped by a low magnification scope.

 

[tommyb]

Put that 36x 42mm fixed Sightron 2FP on the Akela next time, and I bet the score moves north of 190. Pretty nice stock on that Benjamin.

Good shooting Jim and Ed.

 

[tommyb]

Here is my submission for the next 30y Masters leaderboard. 195-10X

Shot a few 40y cards, but best I could do was a 186-10x for 40 y challenge.

RAW submission also, very slight improvement.

 

[tommyb]

Here is my submission for the next 30y Masters leaderboard. 195-10X

Shot a few 40y cards, but best I could do was a 186-10x for 40 y challenge.

RAW submission also, very slight improvement.

View attachment 454309

View attachment 454314

View attachment 454316

View attachment 454320

I caught an error on the 40y challenge card. Should be a 186-9X vs.186-10x. I accidentally counted an “X” from a cross out bull.

Tom

 

[NAProf]

Hi Guys,
Had an interesting insight as I was analyzing the cards I shot as part of the data collection for my pellet sorting experiment. I weighed and measured 192 of the FX 18.1gr pellets and then shot them at the 40yd Challenge cards. Shot eight cards over two days, recording the velocities and then measuring and plotting the POI's. The card below is the 6th card shot and, while it is pretty good at 193-8x, I didn't take special note of it at first.

I said I didn't take any special note of it until I plotted the POI's. Here they are with a dime photo overlaid. That is all 24 shots with the max CTC distance of 0.94 MOA. Unfortunately for card scoring I needed to have used two clicks right and one up on the scope. If I had done that this would have been a 198-18x card.

Woulda, coulda, shoula ... I shoot the cards in this experiment without trying to hold for wind gusts or waiting for still moments. I just try to put the cross hair in the same spot every time - Afterall what I am trying to do is to quantify the effect of pellet weight and head size on the scatter of the POI. I also single shot load so I have a new head position on every shot. I am trying to use this to discipline myself to being able to do that well.

All in all I would say that shooting these targets has made me a better shooter, but it is also very useful to look at how the shots group.
Cheers,
Greg

 

[JimD]

I shot a target with my new Caiman yesterday while I was tuning it and sighting in the scope. It was not until block 4 I stopped messing with it. The last 18 shots were all 10s or 9s and there were only 3 9s. What I think was the last shot at the left target in block 3 was also a 10. One more decent block and I could have improved that guns score significantly. Next two targets with that tune have been in wind and worse. I quit on the second one when it started raining fairly hard. Velocity variation is still not good. I'm not sure it is affecting accuracy at 30 yards but I just asked Utah Air about a theory on what could be "wrong".

 

[EPG]

Is that the Crown that your selling to me Greg ?

Great shooting! Thanks for the data plotting as well - very cool.

-Ed

 

[tommyb]

Hi Guys,
Had an interesting insight as I was analyzing the cards I shot as part of the data collection for my pellet sorting experiment. I weighed and measured 192 of the FX 18.1gr pellets and then shot them at the 40yd Challenge cards. Shot eight cards over two days, recording the velocities and then measuring and plotting the POI's. The card below is the 6th card shot and, while it is pretty good at 193-8x, I didn't take special note of it at first.
View attachment 454431

I said I didn't take any special note of it until I plotted the POI's. Here they are with a dime photo overlaid. That is all 24 shots with the max CTC distance of 0.94 MOA. Unfortunately for card scoring I needed to have used two clicks right and one up on the scope. If I had done that this would have been a 198-18x card.

Woulda, coulda, shoula ... I shoot the cards in this experiment without trying to hold for wind gusts or waiting for still moments. I just try to put the cross hair in the same spot every time - Afterall what I am trying to do is to quantify the effect of pellet weight and head size on the scatter of the POI. I also single shot load so I have a new head position on every shot. I am trying to use this to discipline myself to being able to do that well.

All in all I would say that shooting these targets has made me a better shooter, but it is also very useful to look at how the shots group.
Cheers,
Greg
View attachment 454434

Greg

Always enjoy these overlaid dime photo experiments. If you shot this card with the exact same POA for every bull, I think it is amazing that you shot a 193 at 40Y. I never tried this on any challenge card, so I am curious.

As an illustration, I adjust for every single bull for wind, and even then, getting a 190 or better is very difficult. Some bulls I may have used the exact same hold and then unexpectedly I hit a 7 or 8 (as an example). Then, I may shoot a sighter, and readjust for that condition with a new hold based on either the sighter or where I hit on my prior bull.

This experiment almost justifies ignoring the wind all together, keeping your POA constant for all 24 bulls, and relying on your gun and shooting skill and technique to aim your crosshair at the same exact POA for each bull.

Tom

 

[NAProf]

Greg

Always enjoy these overlaid dime photo experiments. If you shot this card with the exact same POA for every bull, I think it is amazing that you shot a 193 at 40Y. I never tried this on any challenge card, so I am curious.

As an illustration, I adjust for every single bull for wind, and even then, getting a 190 or better is very difficult. Some bulls I may have used the exact same hold and then unexpectedly I hit a 7 or 8 (as an example). Then, I may shoot a sighter, and readjust for that condition with a new hold based on either the sighter or where I hit on my prior bull.

This experiment almost justifies ignoring the wind all together, keeping your POA constant for all 24 bulls, and relying on your gun and shooting skill and technique to aim your crosshair at the same exact POA for each bull.

Tom

Tom,
An interesting point. I think I need to include the weather data with my analysis. That particular card was shot with the winds fairly light, 2-4 mph at my 2 o'clock. I have other cards where the shift due to higher winds is evident. I have a couple of cards for my .177 pellets (in the same experiment data set) where a gusty wind spreads the POI's in all directions.
I am planning to use the vertical POI deltas in the form of an RMS value to measure the effect of head size and pellet weight. I am going to do that by shifting the vertical centroid of the 24 shots to zero for each card and assume the offset was due to reasons other than the pellet weight and pellet head size (shooters bias, parallax from not getting the scope adjusted right, head position, eye box alignment, etc.).
Suffice it to say that being able to make adjustments for wind is an art and one which I will continue to pursue. Though I think the data says that if it isn't too gusty, find one windage adjustment and stick to it for that card.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[tommyb]

Your last sentence.....

If not too gusty.....Are you saying pick a windage hold and stick to it for 24 bulls? I think you are saying exactly this.

Please give a good example. I.e., wind speed for your suggestion? Tail wind, head wind, R-l, L-R?

In other words, I would like to know based on your data, what do you spefically suggest.

Thanks
Tom

 

[NAProf]

Your last sentence.....

If not too gusty.....Are you saying pick a windage hold and stick to it for 24 bulls? I think you are saying exactly this.

Please give a good example. I.e., wind speed for your suggestion? Tail wind, head wind, R-l, L-R?

In other words, I would like to know based on your data, what do you spefically suggest.

Thanks
Tom

Hey Tom,
What I think I am realizing is that you can be your own worst enemy in trying too hard to be perfect. There is a certain amount of randomness in the POI. On my 40 yd targets shooting the 18.1gr pellets it seems that no matter what combination of pellet head size and weight I simulated for an entire card, the RMS value for the elevation POI shift was close to 3mm. Assuming a normal distribution for the POI shift that would mean 67% of the POI's would be within +/- 3mm and 95% would be +/- 6mm. That fits with my observation that typically for a card 20 or 21 of the 24 shots had a POI of within a bit more than 1 MOA. I can't say everyone can expect that, but with this rifle (my NW Crown is shooting really well, and I am still willing to part with it ) that is the level of randomness introduced by the choice of pellets.

The Windage POI errors varied a lot more. I haven't attempted to look at it closely enough to be able to say that at a certain level of gustiness you should change your windage hold. I don't think I can say that. I would need to continuosly record wind velocities at severral locations along the flight path and even then it would be difficult. I am thinking more generally. I am thinking in light winds it may not pay to be trying to correct too often. The POI change you observed may be random. Of course by "random" I mean unexplainable at this time with this technology and my capability.

Thanks for the observations and the willingness to discuss this stuff!

Cheers,
Greg

 

[tommyb]

Hey Tom,
What I think I am realizing is that you can be your own worst enemy in trying too hard to be perfect. There is a certain amount of randomness in the POI. On my 40 yd targets shooting the 18.1gr pellets it seems that no matter what combination of pellet head size and weight I simulated for an entire card, the RMS value for the elevation POI shift was close to 3mm. Assuming a normal distribution for the POI shift that would mean 67% of the POI's would be within +/- 3mm and 95% would be +/- 6mm. That fits with my observation that typically for a card 20 or 21 of the 24 shots had a POI of within a bit more than 1 MOA. I can't say everyone can expect that, but with this rifle (my NW Crown is shooting really well, and I am still willing to part with it ) that is the level of randomness introduced by the choice of pellets.

The Windage POI errors varied a lot more. I haven't attempted to look at it closely enough to be able to say that at a certain level of gustiness you should change your windage hold. I don't think I can say that. I would need to continuosly record wind velocities at severral locations along the flight path and even then it would be difficult. I am thinking more generally. I am thinking in light winds it may not pay to be trying to correct too often. The POI change you observed may be random. Of course by "random" I mean unexplainable at this time with this technology and my capability.

Thanks for the observations and the willingness to discuss this stuff!

Cheers,
Greg

Thanks for the explanations and context Greg.

I definitely would win first place for ‘being my own worst enemy.’ I agree that POI shifts are hard to predict and also hard to analyze, especially with wind in the equation.

I am going to try an experiment though the next time I get a light wind day. I am going to ‘force’ myself to shoot a couple of 30y cards ( not 40y) with no hold adjustments, while maintaining the same exact POA for all 24 bulls. Typically, (as I mentioned previously) I treat each bull as unique and check wind for hold adjustments that may be needed.

If light wind still cooperates, I’ll shoot two more with my standard approach and compare scoring with both scenarios.

 

[Baldone]

Attempted this for first time yesterday but wind was crazy. We haven't had a still day for weeks.

 

[Baldone]

Taipan vet standard 22 very windy

View attachment 20240414_124019.jpg

 

[JimD]

We had gusts 30-40 mph last week for several days. I wasn't doing much shooting and definitely not 30 yard challenge targets. I'm waiting around now for the wind to get to the minimum around 7pm tonight. When I shoot in the wind, I try to watch my flags and adjust but my adjustments are very iffy. Sometimes I guess well but many times I would probably be better off just to ignore the wind and shoot for the bull. Even when the wind is low it seems to move my pellets a little. I try to watch the POI and not adjust my aim point unless I see at least 2 in a row go the same direction by about the same magnitude. Means at least a couple errant shots if the wind shifts and I don't see it but I've messed up lots of times changing my POA based upon a sing shot's POI. My rule, which I am not great at following, is that if I am in doubt, I shoot for the bullseye.

 

[skeeekerz]

Could someone explain in a few words the difference between challenge and masters? Haven't followed along and there'd be quite a few pages to search

 

[beerthief]

We had gusts 30-40 mph last week for several days. I wasn't doing much shooting and definitely not 30 yard challenge targets. I'm waiting around now for the wind to get to the minimum around 7pm tonight. When I shoot in the wind, I try to watch my flags and adjust but my adjustments are very iffy. Sometimes I guess well but many times I would probably be better off just to ignore the wind and shoot for the bull. Even when the wind is low it seems to move my pellets a little. I try to watch the POI and not adjust my aim point unless I see at least 2 in a row go the same direction by about the same magnitude. Means at least a couple errant shots if the wind shifts and I don't see it but I've messed up lots of times changing my POA based upon a sing shot's POI. My rule, which I am not great at following, is that if I am in doubt, I shoot for the bullseye.

". My rule, which I am not great at following, is that if I am in doubt, I shoot for the bullseye." what are you aiming at if not the bullseye every time ?