30-Yard Challenge

[NAProf]

So Greg,

In our endless analysis as to whether velocity vs. tune matters…

My .177 Dreamline Classic used to shoot 195+ always last fall…. I picked it up this week and was getting high 180s and low 190s…

So I was texting TommyB, pulled the stock off, turned the hammer spring in slightly and went from 850fps with a 20fps spread to 881-888fps - tiny turn in…

Took 10 shots at paper plate and all in one 1/2” hole. Texted Tommy that I think I “fixed” the Dreamline…

… 1st target after one sighter (a bullseye) is 199 16X 30-Challenge. Its really a 199 16X 30-Masters because I discarded the 1st row as I forgot that I wasn’t zeroed on the paper plate - was shooting right of target dot.

Can you believe that a 1/8 turn in on a hammer spring adjuster can suddenly make a 190 rifle a laser ?!?

Incredible. I was stunned. I wanted to keep shooting cause wind conditions got better, but Tommy told me that I better take Becky out - he does have good advice, lol.

-Ed

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Ok, let me take a stab at it.

Using my NW Crown as an example. With the stock hammer spring, the Huma 13-gram (4mm head) hammer weight, PW at 17, reg at 90 bar and the internal hammer spring (IHS) adjuster sticking out 4 mm the Potential Energy available for striking the valve pin is 490Nmm. Adjusting the IHS about 1/8 of a turn (so 1/8 of .5mm) the adjuster would be about 4.06 mm. Now the Potential Energy is 496 Nmm. Not much difference. But obviously enough to change your average pellet velocity. You likely hit a sweet spot where the valve is opening exactly the right amount so that only enough air to propel the pellet at that speed is expelled and not a bit more. Nothing to disturb the pellet after it leaves the barrel.
Then there is barrel harmonics. Who knows where that sweet spot is? But from your results you found it! Assuming you are more interested in the science of shooting than shooting such awesome cards (ha ha), you could change the IHS 1 revolution, shoot a card, and change back and see if you find the magic spot again. How repeatable is that setting?
As I said before, you can make all the changes you want to the rifle, but it is still the bloke sighting in and pulling the trigger that matters. Indians and arrows.

Cheers,
Greg

P.S. - Having thought about this overnight I realized I didn't address your fundamental question - Tune or velocity. I am in the firmly in the "tune" camp. The reason is that I know I can get nearly the same average velocity from lots of different tunes (the flat upper part of the velocity vs power curve).

 

[tommyb]

Tommy, this is my third year doing this. In 2022 when I started I was happy with high 180s. I didn't get any 200s and not many upper 190s. But I had fun and improved. I mostly used a bipod and monopod or rear bag. So I had to reposition the gun between shots. Last year, 2023 I built myself a windage adjustable monopod so I can adjust elevation and windage with thumb screws. I also bought a Rock BR front rest which is screw adjustable for windage and elevation. At one point I shot 199s with both using my P35-22. I like my home made monopod so I mostly use it now and used it for my one 200 last year.

My P35-22 really likes H&N Baracuda Match pellets, head size doesn't seem to matter much if at all. It liked them from the start. I put three into one hole the size of a single pellet at 25 yards twice with it testing different pellets. It does not like anything I've tested made by JSB nearly as well. So I haven't had to mess around much to find a good pellet for it. I've done much more testing for my other guns. It wasn't until 2024 that I found my P35-177 likes H&N Baracuda FT better than Baracuda Match. That raised my best score 3 points (so far). My P35-25 was more dramatic. I shot something like a 155 with it with the H&N FTT pellets it seemed to like. Killed 18 squirrels with them too. It seemed to like 34 grain JSBs but shot them so slow I didn't do a lot with them. But then I added a power plenum and got them up to about 800 fps and shot a 194. I bought a Air Maks Caiman earlier this year and had a heck of a time getting the moderator to work but it shot well even when the moderator was not working. 5 or 6 197s and counting. Likes H&N Baracuda 18s best.

I've tested multiple ways to support my rifles and for me a method that can be adjusted easily and quickly by a screw is important. I could shoot well with a system where the gun is repositioned except I am just not patient enough to do it. Finding the pellet your gun wants is a BIG key. Getting my body off the gun and bench as much as possible and squeezing the trigger are also BIG. I've tried sorting pellets and it didn't seem to do much. I do not find that there is any magic velocity either. I shot a 195 with my Caiman last week and changed the velocity 3 times during the target. I want velocity 800-900 when the gun will do it with a pellet it likes. But accuracy does not seem to be strongly influenced by velocity in my guns.

So my recommendation for those starting out is to find a way to support the gun that is not you and fits your shooting. Bags can work, I think, if you are patient enough. For me it is either a bipod with windage and elevation adjustable monopod or a front rest that adjusts for windage and elevation with a monopod or rear bag. Find a pellet your gun really likes. Don't skimp or just decide JSBs are best. After that, make sure you squeeze the trigger. I use a couple wind flags too but my best scores are not shot in any significant wind.

Jim

Jim

Good advice here.

I have a Randolph front mechanical rest that I normally use for 50 and 100y bench shooting. My new RAW TM1000x has a nice flat fore-end, which is perfect for BR applications. I do like the ability to use the windage and elevation knobs while keeping rifle anchored between shots. There is a reason all of those top N50 match shooters use one and two piece mechanical rests.

Finding the right pellets is everything as you point out also, along with squeezing vs. just pulling the trigger too fast. The flags and wind reading is always the biggest variable for most of us.

Tom

 

[tommyb]

So Greg,

In our endless analysis as to whether velocity vs. tune matters…

My .177 Dreamline Classic used to shoot 195+ always last fall…. I picked it up this week and was getting high 180s and low 190s…

So I was texting TommyB, pulled the stock off, turned the hammer spring in slightly and went from 850fps with a 20fps spread to 881-888fps - tiny turn in…

Took 10 shots at paper plate and all in one 1/2” hole. Texted Tommy that I think I “fixed” the Dreamline…

… 1st target after one sighter (a bullseye) is 199 16X 30-Challenge. Its really a 199 16X 30-Masters because I discarded the 1st row as I forgot that I wasn’t zeroed on the paper plate - was shooting right of target dot.

Can you believe that a 1/8 turn in on a hammer spring adjuster can suddenly make a 190 rifle a laser ?!?

Incredible. I was stunned. I wanted to keep shooting cause wind conditions got better, but Tommy told me that I better take Becky out - he does have good advice, lol.

-Ed

View attachment 461400

Ha ha - glad you took Becky out to dinner!

One more data point on finding an optimum velocity and pellet.

When I was testing my HW100 .22 Carbine, I spent months testing and documenting my group size accuracy at 25, 30, 40 and 50 yards. I must have tried every velocity from 760 FPS to 850 FPS with the JSB 18.1g pellet. I did get good results for groups, but my ES spreads were erratic. My 30y scores were in the 180’s.

Then, you fixed several issues with the gun and tried four different pellets and brands and different velocities. As it turns out, the 805-810 FPS velocity with the 15.89 FX Atomic pellet is the most accurate pellet and velocity. The ES is consistently under 15, and frequently under 10 FPS.

In this example, both the pellet weight and optimum velocity ( and all the issues with the gun being resolved ) all contributed to a now great shooting gun.

In your case the 20 FPS change made all the difference.

But like Greg says, the person behind the rifle is probably the biggest variable.

 

[EPG]

30- Masters Leaderboard Submission:
199 16X - FX Dreamline Classic .177

I jerked the trigger a bit on #6a - costing me a “Marvin-ous” 200-Masters card. I’ve still never shot a 200-Masters… a number of 199s…

It was breezier today than yesterday when I shot the 199 30-Challenge with the tune adjusted Dreamline. But, I thought I’d go after a good 30-Masters score. The wind did die down a bit for the 3rd card. My progression today at 30-Masters:

Card 1 - 193 10X
Card 2 - 196 13X
Card 3 - 199 16X

I’m gonna place a few bets on the Derby as I’m having a good day…

Get some lead downrange boys - spring is the time for good scores…

 

[JimD]

I've messed around with velocity a fair bit. I bought a mold for 25 caliber pellets from NOE and tried to find a velocity they would shoot well from my Avenger or my P35-25. So I shot them from about 700 fps to as close as 900 fps as I could get. Didn't help. I think the cast pellets are fine, the weight variation is less than JSBs but my guns don't like them.

More recently I've been adjusting my Caiman a lot. It's touchy about the hammer spring setting more than my other guns. At 100 bar, it's peak velocity is 940 fps on 18 grain. I want to keep them under 900 which has proved challenging. I've shot 30 yard challenge targets at over 900 down to around 860 fps. Similar scores. My P35-22 seems to be equally accurate and equally insensitive to the exact tune I use.

But something else may be happening with my P35-177. It went from a high 180s to low 190s gun to a 197 target. I thought it was the new pellet, the Baracuda FT, but I have been unable to come close to repeating it. I need to spend more time on the tune to see if I might have inadvertantly stumbled upon a sweet spot and have now drifted a bit away from it. I don't discount the possibility that a tune can make a big difference, but I haven't seen it do that in at least most of my guns. But I don't stop trying.

 

[Sharp Pog]

Here is my first ever 30 yd challenge . Back yard range allows me to shoot at 35 yards max . it was set at 34 yards so I left it as it was and shot . I scored it wrong the first time so I redid it . Score is 198 15 x . Shooting a Vulcan 3 22 cal

 

[JimD]

Great target!

 

[beerthief]

nice shooting .
I should start shooting 30 yard again . Too many projects and then lazyness

 

[Florida_Man]

nice shooting .
I should start shooting 30 yard again . Too many projects and then lazyness

Same here, but also add 9mon old kid on top haha.
I really need a more stable table. My portable just moves too much. it has a bow in it now. I have been thinking of building one out of wood with some nice sawhorse legs. Something I can still break down and put in my shed in the event of a hurricane.

 

[tommyb]

Same here, but also add 9mon old kid on top haha.
I really need a more stable table. My portable just moves too much. it has a bow in it now. I have been thinking of building one out of wood with some nice sawhorse legs. Something I can still break down and put in my shed in the event of a hurricane.

Chris

But what if the hurricane destroys your shed. Then you have to build a sturdier shed and a new shooting table. Just teasing, hopefully no hurricanes come your way.

Seriously, have you posted any inquiry on the Benchrest category about portable or home made shooting tables? Also Ed (EPG) uses one and he may chime in here. I feel like there must be some good information available here on AGN.

Tom

 

[beerthief]

Same here, but also add 9mon old kid on top haha.
I really need a more stable table. My portable just moves too much. it has a bow in it now. I have been thinking of building one out of wood with some nice sawhorse legs. Something I can still break down and put in my shed in the event of a hurricane.

Yes i have heard those Hurricane's are bad on shooting benches .

 

[tommyb]

Here is my first ever 30 yd challenge . Back yard range allows me to shoot at 35 yards max . it was set at 34 yards so I left it as it was and shot . I scored it wrong the first time so I redid it . Score is 198 15 x . Shooting a Vulcan 3 22 cal

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Greg,

Phenomenal, especially for your ‘first ever’ 30Y target! Also, 34 yards and 15X’s. Very impressive.

Great shooting and we look forward to seeing more from that Vulcan.

 

[Sharp Pog]

Greg,

Phenomenal, especially for your ‘first ever’ 30Y target! Also, 34 yards and 15X’s. Very impressive.

Great shooting and we look forward to seeing more from that Vulcan.

I used to shoot competitive 22 rimfire benches matches. I gave it up a few years back and missed shooting so I got into airguns. I shoot a monthly 50 yard indoor match at Piney Hill in Luray Va. I There is a forum on Facebook called Appalachian Leadheads that tells when there are matches if anyone in the area wants to attend. We shoot 5 dollars a card winner takes all .I have been doing very well with the Vulcan 3 .22 cal 700mm barrel .It has a Hawke Sidewinder 8-32 x. I also own 2 RTI Prophet Performance 1. .One is 22 cal and the other is 25 . They both shoot very well also

 

[RCope]

Been playing around with different velocities and pellets to try to improve my accuracy. Here is my best with a lower velocity, different pellet. The wind was blowing left to right, but intermittent. Still not my best overall, but I will keep trying .

 

[tommyb]

Been playing around with different velocities and pellets to try to improve my accuracy. Here is my best with a lower velocity, different pellet. The wind was blowing left to right, but intermittent. Still not my best overall, but I will keep trying .
View attachment 461938

Nice! yeah, I can see left to right wind on many of your bulls.

 

[EPG]

Been playing around with different velocities and pellets to try to improve my accuracy. Here is my best with a lower velocity, different pellet. The wind was blowing left to right, but intermittent. Still not my best overall, but I will keep trying .
View attachment 461938

Your vertical dispersion looks awesome at that modest velocity… every single one of those 24 shots looks like it could have been a 10 with the right wind hold for the L/R.

That’s all you can ask from a rifle - good tune and good shooting!

 

[tommyb]

I used to shoot competitive 22 rimfire benches matches. I gave it up a few years back and missed shooting so I got into airguns. I shoot a monthly 50 yard indoor match at Piney Hill in Luray Va. I There is a forum on Facebook called Appalachian Leadheads that tells when there are matches if anyone in the area wants to attend. We shoot 5 dollars a card winner takes all .I have been doing very well with the Vulcan 3 .22 cal 700mm barrel .It has a Hawke Sidewinder 8-32 x. I also own 2 RTI Prophet Performance 1. .One is 22 cal and the other is 25 . They both shoot very well also

View attachment 461917

Ha ha - I see a ‘pool shark’ just stepped inside the pool hall. I can tell by your rigs and guns this wasn’t your first rodeo.

 

[EPG]

Shot the Wolverine R HP .22 the other day. Will submit the only two cards I shot for the leaderboard:

30-Challenge: 196 10X
30-Masters: 191 6X

I rarely shoot the Wolverine at 30, because the rifle shoots the 18.13s over 1,000 fps (accurately) - feels like too much firepower for 30 yards. Actually, the rifle is amazingly docile and quiet to shoot - its just in my head that it’s better suited to 40+ yards.

I’m starting to get the May Leaderboard updates done - so get some lead down range and submit some good scores gentlemen.

-Ed

 

[tommyb]

Shot the Wolverine R HP .22 the other day. Will submit the only two cards I shot for the leaderboard:

30-Challenge: 196 10X
30-Masters: 191 6X

I rarely shoot the Wolverine at 30, because the rifle shoots the 18.13s over 1,000 fps (accurately) - feels like too much firepower for 30 yards. Actually, the rifle is amazingly docile and quiet to shoot - its just in my head that it’s better suited to 40+ yards.

I’m starting to get the May Leaderboard updates done - so get some lead down range and submit some good scores gentlemen.

-Ed

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Anytime you have to throw away ‘Four Nine’s’ means you are shooting well. I can’t help wondering if the velocity was lower on the Wolverine, would that help/hinder your scoring.

Ed, My leaderboard submissions are all up to date for May, if I don’t get out this week.

 

[EPG]

Leaderboard submission from yesterday:

Reximex Daystar .177 (unregulated)
30-Challenge: 194 12X
30-Masters: 197 17X (!)

I shot 30-Challenge cards of :
194 11X
190 9X
194 12X

Only shot the one incredible 30-Masters card. The wind died down for the Masters card. It was crazy for the Challenge cards. My flags were showing wind moving right and the pellets were going left - costing me an entire row on the 194 12X card.

This Reximex rifle is identical mechanically to Benjamin Cayden and Akela. I believe Reximex is the parent company to Kral. The Turks make great rifles and barrels.

The Daystar is finished to a higher standard than the Benjamin rifles in my opinion. It has a 5 detent power adjuster, and the top rail is BOTH picatinny and dovetail (more rifles should come this way). Internally, the Daystar had a bit more attention to detail than Benjamin - the hammer spring was a more reasonable length, but still required shortening from 3.1” to 2.8”.

Reximex does not seem to have a US distributor, but Canada does. With the current Canadian exchange rate, this rifle is available in .177, .22 and .25 for $473 US dollars, lol - incredible value.

Reximex Daystar Wood 0.177 Cal - Below 500 fps

Model Daystar Cocking System Side Lever Caliber 4.5mm / .177cal Max. Muzzle Velocity (*) 490fps Magazine Capacity 14 Number of Shots at Optimal Velocity (250-100bar) 98 Air Tube Volume 260cc Fill Pressure 250 BAR Stock High Quality Walnut Stock. Elevation Adjustable Cheek Rest. Rubber Butt…

canadashootingsupply.ca

-Ed