30-Yard Challenge

[ThomasT]

Ok guys, I’m really getting tired of all these 200 scores; especially with the number of ‘X’s’ you are accumulating. Time to share your secret sauce.

I want details, since I can’t get past 194-196 for the last half dozen ( or more) range outings. Even my rimfire buddies are beginning to doubt me. Give us some step by step feedback. You know what is working, so tell us.

Btw, please realize I am just poking at you for some fun, but I am also curious and want to learn some improved techniques.

I.e., how many sighters, do you shoot bottom to top horizontally from right to left or left to right, do you zero at 30y, if so do you hold or dial for wind, do you take 20 minutes to shoot a card or how long, do you use 2FP scopes with thin reticles, and lastly - how the heck are you getting 18 and 20 X’s?

Tom

Hello @tommyb

First off and most important it is all being lucky at one time. I generally do not shoot "sighters" per-se, what I most often do, is shoot a number of 25-yard MOA Targets set up at 30 yards. To be honest, some days I just cannot get any kind of a good score so I do not try the 30-Yard Challenge or any other competition target. On those certain days that I am "cooking with gas", I am seeing the target, my gun is working great, and most important I am comfortable and relaxed then I will shoot. I have shot as many as 10 targets ( like the 30-Yard Challenge ) in one morning and still not get that 200. As soon as I see that I am rushing or pushing a shot I will stop. I will sometimes get up and leave a target and relax for a couple of minutes. This is all fun for me BUT trust me, I do get FRUSTRATED from time to time. Some targets will take 10 minutes or more for me to shoot. However if I see that I am taking way too long on a shot, then that is when I get up and will even stop shooting sometimes. Most of the time when I am really serious I will wear a left eye patch, which allows me to leave both eyes open but only my right eye focus on the reticle. I use several different scopes both SFP and FFP but always with a very thin reticle and / or small center Dot and 38x or higher power. Like @rsfrid Ross says, "aim small miss small". And yes, I do zero my scope at 30 yards. I actually focus on just one line on the target and spend time zeroing on it. And no, I do not hold for wind for two reasons: 1) I suck at reading the wind, and 2) I do not shoot if there is a wind of more than 8-10mph.

Tommy I am not a good shot, but I am persistent as heck and the 10's and x's come when all the stars align and I get lucky.

Hope this will help in some way.

ThomasT

 

[ThomasT]

I share Tommyb’s questions and I have a request…

Would one of you 200 score sharpshooters, like ThomasT, shoot a card or two with unsorted pellets - straight from the tin?

It would give us a benchmark of how much the consistency of the ammo itself impacts scoring….

Hello @EPG

You would have to read way back and see how much testing I have done with pellets. Today I shoot straight from the Tin. But let me be clear, when loading the pellets into the magazine I do cull any and all that don't look "right". As I told @tommyb, I shoot a whole lot of targets before I get that one 200 card. What I am saying, is that I shoot a lot of 180's and 190's. Tomorrow I might be lucky to shoot a 185 as my high card and again I might shoot several 190's. I do not want to get into an entirely new subject, but in my very limited knowledge, I believe the "gun" is the key factor even more so than the pellet. Come on now guys please do not jump all over me for that last statement .

ThomasT

 

[EPG]

Hello @EPG

You would have to read way back and see how much testing I have done with pellets. Today I shoot straight from the Tim. But let me be clear, when loading the pellets into the magazine I do cull any and all that don't look "right". As I told @tommyb, I shoot a whole lot of targets before I get that one 200 card. What I am saying, is that I shoot a lot of 180's and 190's. Tomorrow I might be lucky to shoot a 185 as my high card and again I might shoot several 190's. I do not want to get into an entirely new subject, but in my very limited knowledge, I believe the "gun" is the key factor even more so than the pellet. Come on now guys please do not jump all over me for that last statement .

ThomasT

ThomasT, you are an airgun “God” shooting 200 with 18 Xs ! If anyone on this forum questions you, they better be able to outshoot ya, lol.

Its interesting that you don’t weigh and just “eyeball sort”.

What velocity are you typically shooting at 30 yards?

 

[rsfrid]

Hello @tommyb

First off and most important it is all being lucky at one time. I generally do not shoot "sighters" per-se, what I most often do, is shoot a number of 25-yard MOA Targets set up at 30 yards. To be honest, some days I just cannot get any kind of a good score so I do not try the 30-Yard Challenge or any other competition target. On those certain days that I am "cooking with gas", I am seeing the target, my gun is working great, and most important I am comfortable and relaxed then I will shoot. I have shot as many as 10 targets ( like the 30-Yard Challenge ) in one morning and still not get that 200. As soon as I see that I am rushing or pushing a shot I will stop. I will sometimes get up and leave a target and relax for a couple of minutes. This is all fun for me BUT trust me, I do get FRUSTRATED from time to time. Some targets will take 10 minutes or more for me to shoot. However if I see that I am taking way too long on a shot, then that is when I get up and will even stop shooting sometimes. Most of the time when I am really serious I will wear a left eye patch, which allows me to leave both eyes open but only my right eye focus on the reticle. I use several different scopes both SFP and FFP but always with a very thin reticle and / or small center Dot and 38x or higher power. Like @rsfrid Ross says, "aim small miss small". And yes, I do zero my scope at 30 yards. I actually focus on just one line on the target and spend time zeroing on it. And no, I do not hold for wind for two reasons: 1) I suck at reading the wind, and 2) I do not shoot if there is a wind of more than 8-10mph.

Tommy I am not a good shot, but I am persistent as heck and the 10's and x's come when all the stars align and I get lucky.

Hope this will help in some way.

ThomasT

 

[ThomasT]

ThomasT, you are an airgun “God” shooting 200 with 18 Xs ! If anyone on this forum questions you, they better be able to outshoot ya, lol.

Its interesting that you don’t weigh and just “eyeball sort”.

What velocity are you typically shooting at 30 yards?

Hello again @EPG,

We would have to start another thread to fully discuss the "ins and out" of pellets. The fps is where I am spending a LOT of time. I have established that the JSB Monster Redesigned 13.43gr is the "current" pellet of choice, so with that stated, in the past I have been shooting at 868 fps. I have messed around with the Power setting in very small increments and switched to 907fps. I shot several 200's with that setting and thought I had found the perfect setting. However messing around some more I moved it up to 911fps and that is what I shot this last 200 with. I'm not sure that this might be improved, but I know that I will surely try.

ThomasT

 

[tcarlson777]

ThomasT will happily share his secrets with you, as he has with me (He's really helpful). I can tell you one secret to his success . . . he shoots a ton!!! Also tunes and tinkers a lot to find his rifles happy tune. I find the wind needs to be below 3mph for me to even come near a 200. Shot a 198 two days ago in completely calm weather with unsorted pellets.

 

[tommyb]

All good information and thanks!

A couple of my rifles have thick reticle FFP scopes, at higher magnification. It does make it exceedingly hard to see my POA especially if I aim dead on at that tiny X ring. Eventually, I will replace one or two FFP scopes with thinner 2FP reticle scopes. We have discussed this before.

Agree with Tom Carlson on wind. For me, anything over 2-3 mph is tricky, even at 30 yards. That said, many of us would never shoot outside if we had to wait for a light wind.

Subconsciously, I may be blaming my wind hold vs. a shooting technique mistake causing POI shifts from my POA. I know this, if I did not adjust my hold for wind and aimed at the X ring for all 20 ( or 22 ) bulls, my scores would be worse. It is very normal for me to see 2-4 wind direction changes while shooting these cards. Also, don’t sort any pellets. I shoot straight from the tin, and I’m sure some bad pellets may have gotten me at times.

I think one of the biggest faults is rushing a card. I need to step away at times, or just slow down.

 

[ThomasT]

All good information and thanks!

A couple of my rifles have thick reticle FFP scopes, at higher magnification. It does make it exceedingly hard to see my POA especially if I aim dead on at that tiny X ring. Eventually, I will replace one or two FFP scopes with thinner 2FP reticle scopes. We have discussed this before.

Agree with Tom Carlson on wind. For me, anything over 2-3 mph is tricky, even at 30 yards. That said, many of us would never shoot outside if we had to wait for a light wind.

Subconsciously, I may be blaming my wind hold vs. a shooting technique mistake causing POI shifts from my POA. I know this, if I did not adjust my hold for wind and aimed at the X ring for all 20 ( or 22 ) bulls, my scores would be worse. It is very normal for me to see 2-4 wind direction changes while shooting these cards. Also, don’t sort any pellets. I shoot straight from the tin, and I’m sure some bad pellets may have gotten me at times.

I think one of the biggest faults is rushing a card. I need to step away at times, or just slow down.

Hello @tommyb

The scope that I have on my Crown now is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen2 10-40x56 BLR SFP MOA Reticle Part# 214071. You can look it up and read all the specifications. The small dot in the very center of the reticle is so small at 30-yards that it easily fits inside the "X Dot" on the 30-Yard Challenge target. I am attaching a photo below. When you have that Dot dead center on the 30-Yard target and pull the trigger without movement of the rifle, you just "have to hit on or very close" to the "X dot". With a miss, it is still a 10. This excludes wind and etc.

As I had stated earlier, my biggest enemy is rushing a shot ( this most often happens when I am not relaxed ) and most likely as you stated, that is also your enemy.

ThomasT

 

[douger]

Hello @tommyb

The scope that I have on my Crown now is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen2 10-40x56 BLR SFP MOA Reticle Part# 214071. You can look it up and read all the specifications. The small dot in the very center of the reticle is so small at 30-yards that it easily fits inside the "X Dot" on the 30-Yard Challenge target. I am attaching a photo below. When you have that Dot dead center on the 30-Yard target and pull the trigger without movement of the rifle, you just "have to hit on or very close" to the "X dot". With a miss, it is still a 10. This excludes wind and etc.

As I had stated earlier, my biggest enemy is rushing a shot ( this most often happens when I am not relaxed ) and most likely as you stated, that is also your enemy.

ThomasT
View attachment 319980

is that dot that small at the high power you shoot at? i can see that dot would cover the center x -dot my ffp helix has pretty small center dot as does my arkens scopes 10-14 power is all i use could see myself to shoot at 38x power be so danm shaky

 

[ThomasT]

is that dot that small at the high power you shoot at? i can see that dot would cover the center x -dot my ffp helix has pretty small center dot as does my arkens scopes 10-14 power is all i use could see myself to shoot at 38x power be so danm shaky

Hello @douger

I shoot at x40 and yes, the Center Dot of the reticle is so small that it fits within the solid black "X dot" of the target. I rest my Crown on the large Layman Bag ( this is the one with a "center" and bags on either side ) which locks the gun in place and rest the gun butt on bags, I have almost no movement. I adjust elevation with the Layman Bag Jack and windage by moving the rear bags. I have shaky hands and this keeps the rifle really steady. It takes a bit of adjustment time to zero in on each Bullseye, but this works for me.

ThomasT

 

[tcarlson777]

My FX Crown decided to attempt matching @ThomasT 's fantastic card that he recently shot. We fell a little short, but still feel pretty good about our score, a 199 13X. Choked on the last box, again, #12!!

 

[ThomasT]

My FX Crown decided to attempt matching @ThomasT 's fantastic card that he recently shot. We fell a little short, but still feel pretty good about our score, a 199 13X. Choked on the last box, again, #12!!

View attachment 320041

Ooooooo so close

Nice shooting Tom.

ThomasT

 

[tommyb]

Ooooooo so close

Nice shooting Tom.

ThomasT

Hello @tommyb

The scope that I have on my Crown now is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen2 10-40x56 BLR SFP MOA Reticle Part# 214071. You can look it up and read all the specifications. The small dot in the very center of the reticle is so small at 30-yards that it easily fits inside the "X Dot" on the 30-Yard Challenge target. I am attaching a photo below. When you have that Dot dead center on the 30-Yard target and pull the trigger without movement of the rifle, you just "have to hit on or very close" to the "X dot". With a miss, it is still a 10. This excludes wind and etc.

As I had stated earlier, my biggest enemy is rushing a shot ( this most often happens when I am not relaxed ) and most likely as you stated, that is also your enemy.

ThomasT
View attachment 319980

My FX Crown decided to attempt matching @ThomasT 's fantastic card that he recently shot. We fell a little short, but still feel pretty good about our score, a 199 13X. Choked on the last box, again, #12!!

View attachment 320041

Ditto! I’ll take a 199 any day of the week.

 

[tommyb]

Hello @tommyb

The scope that I have on my Crown now is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen2 10-40x56 BLR SFP MOA Reticle Part# 214071. You can look it up and read all the specifications. The small dot in the very center of the reticle is so small at 30-yards that it easily fits inside the "X Dot" on the 30-Yard Challenge target. I am attaching a photo below. When you have that Dot dead center on the 30-Yard target and pull the trigger without movement of the rifle, you just "have to hit on or very close" to the "X dot". With a miss, it is still a 10. This excludes wind and etc.

As I had stated earlier, my biggest enemy is rushing a shot ( this most often happens when I am not relaxed ) and most likely as you stated, that is also your enemy.

ThomasT
View attachment 319980

Thanks. I like this reticle.

I may be buying one of these scopes in the near future. I like the magnification also.

Does anyone know if Camera-land or Midway accept any trades with cash to buy a new scope? I realize I can use the AGN classifieds, but was curious. I really doubt it.

 

[NAProf]

Hi Guys!

ThomasT has been imparting lots of wisdom here and has once again inspired me to investigate pellets. Thomas has said he is now not sorting, except for obviously bad pellets when loading, and I think I have some data to support that. Ready to geek out to Excel? I weighed and measured 24 pellets, then shot them at the 30 yd Challenge target. I recorded the muzzle velocity from my FX Radar and measured and scored the points of impact. I did this for 6 targets over three days. The shooting was from the same setup at the same location (my backyard), but I had different wind conditions each day.


An example of one target's results is provided here.

Note that all of the pellets had the same head size. That is because I was using a PelletGageR to measure them. All of these failed to drop their heads through the initial 4.53 mm screen. Some of the other pellets did, but not many. These were the FX 13.4 pellets (look like JSB Monsters – not the redesign ones). They were pretty consistent, though about 14% went through this screen but not the 4.51 mm screen. About 4% went through the 4.51 screen. As a result of my limited head size data I did not really look at it.

The bellow three charts summarize the results. I chose to use Elevation POI as an accuracy measure because I had some crosswinds each day and the scatter in windage was greater than the scatter in elevation.

First is Elevation POI vs. Weight. I don’t see any trend there. Lightest pellet was 3 mm low, but the next two lightest were +2.25 mm and – 0.75 mm.

Next is muzzle velocity vs. pellet weight. Again I don’t see a trend. The lightest pellets didn’t shoot the fastest.

And lastly elevation POI vs muzzle velocity. Again no trend.

This is admittedly a very limited test and I am not trying to sell anything. I just think it is interesting – and somewhat counter-intuitive. What does anybody else think?

 

[ThomasT]

Hi Guys!

ThomasT has been imparting lots of wisdom here and has once again inspired me to investigate pellets. Thomas has said he is now not sorting, except for obviously bad pellets when loading, and I think I have some data to support that. Ready to geek out to Excel? I weighed and measured 24 pellets, then shot them at the 30 yd Challenge target. I recorded the muzzle velocity from my FX Radar and measured and scored the points of impact. I did this for 6 targets over three days. The shooting was from the same setup at the same location (my backyard), but I had different wind conditions each day.


An example of one target's results is provided here.
View attachment 320238

Note that all of the pellets had the same head size. That is because I was using a PelletGageR to measure them. All of these failed to drop their heads through the initial 4.53 mm screen. Some of the other pellets did, but not many. These were the FX 13.4 pellets (look like JSB Monsters – not the redesign ones). They were pretty consistent, though about 14% went through this screen but not the 4.51 mm screen. About 4% went through the 4.51 screen. As a result of my limited head size data I did not really look at it.

The bellow three charts summarize the results. I chose to use Elevation POI as an accuracy measure because I had some crosswinds each day and the scatter in windage was greater than the scatter in elevation.

First is Elevation POI vs. Weight. I don’t see any trend there. Lightest pellet was 3 mm low, but the next two lightest were +2.25 mm and – 0.75 mm.
View attachment 320240


Next is muzzle velocity vs. pellet weight. Again I don’t see a trend. The lightest pellets didn’t shoot the fastest.
View attachment 320241


And lastly elevation POI vs muzzle velocity. Again no trend.
View attachment 320242




This is admittedly a very limited test and I am not trying to sell anything. I just think it is interesting – and somewhat counter-intuitive. What does anybody else think?

Hello @NAProf

What you are showing is is Great. I printed out the Chart to study it a bit more but if I am seeing it correctly the number 21 shot came the closest to a "perfect" condition shot. In other words, you had No wind and almost No elevation change/adjustment/etc. The net result was a 10X. So pellet #21 was slightly heavy, ( 13.64 v 13.4 ) , slightly slower, ( 823 v 827 ). What I did notice that the most 10X had a fps of 826 and 828. And the most 9's were a bit faster at between 828 and 833. Now I just need to extrapolate this information to apply to JSB Monster Redesigned 13.43 pellets and my gun.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into this and for sharing, there is a lot to learn from this information. I will be experimenting with my Crown today for sure.

ThomasT

 

[NAProf]

ThomasT,
Thanks. I knew you would be interested. Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you the spreadsheet with all 6 targets.
Cheers,
Greg

 

[ThomasT]

ThomasT,
Thanks. I knew you would be interested. Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you the spreadsheet with all 6 targets.
Cheers,
Greg

Thank you Greg, just sent you a PM.

This is some really good stuff

ThomasT

 

[Lightyear68]

I'd appreciate suggestions on what scope power and reticle pattern would be best to see the small bullseye on the 30-yard challenge sheet from the OP. The upper end for my budget would be this Athlon BTR Gen 2 10X40X56 with the fine floating dot reticle as seen in the screenshot. $450

I'd be OK with one of the Amazon brands for $200 if it's working for you. The reticle on my cheap scope is too thick for me to place my shots on the target.

Anyway--I'm open to suggestions with a budget between $200 and $500.

 

[ThomasT]

I'd appreciate suggestions on what scope power and reticle pattern would be best to see the small bullseye on the 30-yard challenge sheet from the OP. The upper end for my budget would be this Athlon BTR Gen 2 10X40X56 with the fine floating dot reticle as seen in the screenshot. $450

I'd be OK with one of the Amazon brands for $200 if it's working for you. The reticle on my cheap scope is too thick for me to place my shots on the target.

Anyway--I'm open to suggestions with a budget between $200 and $500.

View attachment 321931

Hello @Lightyear68

I just sent you a PM.

ThomasT