30-Yard Challenge

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EPG said:
Here is the link to the page with Greg’s (NAProf) original post:

30-Yard Challenge

How do we see the leaderboard? Is there a link, or is it just updated throughout the threads, or maybe upon request? I'm trying to figure out when I make it on.
www.airgunnation.com www.airgunnation.com

It would be cool to have the software that plots the shots like that.

-Ed
Click to expand...
Hi Guys,
Glad you liked my Excel efforts to get my head around why I was having so much trouble with the 30 Yard Challenge. It takes some effort to produce those charts. I would be happy to post an Excel template for anyone who wants to try. But at the end of the day it requires you to measure (as accurately as you can), the windage and elevation offsets from the Bullseye. I try to do it in 1/4 mm increments which is about as good as I can get from my scale and estimating the center of the hole in the target. I then use the size of the scoring pin to determine the score. For the pin I am using (for my .177 to look like a .22) the diameter is 5.66 mm. I scale the circle on the charts to get that size. That's why the holes look big for a .177.

I am including a screen capture of the analysis chart for the best card I shot (199 -19x) just to show how good you have to shoot in order to get those really good scores. I still have not rung the 200 bell. But I keep trying - and now need to try at 40 yds!

Cheers,
Greg
Best 30 YD Challange.png
 
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Well, you tell me does consistency in pellet weight matter for accuracy? Up until this presented itself, I have been a pellet weigher in .005 grams or .1 grains, 0.1 grain is equal to .006 grams. Pellets would be sorted to either .1 grain groups or .005 gram groups. That was before this.

I have found that my Red Wolf HP .22 likes all the JTS pellets the best, so I am shooting 18.1’s on low power which is around 1010 fps and on med 21.53’s at 1030 fps and still on med the 25.39’s at 960 fps.

So where am I leading? Let’s start with the fact the 25.39 pellet is 3.89 grains heavier than the 21.53. Now lets looks at some groups shot on medium power for both the 25.39 and 21.53’s with absolutely no scope adjustments.

Wind conditions were very mild both days. Pellets were taken from the tin and rolled on my oil pad nothing else did not even visually inspect them. The 15 match targets are 21.53 while the sighter row extreme right is 25.39 do not include the bottom 2 targets in this row. This was several days ago.

Today I shot these 6 targets in this order 8, 9, 10, 5, 4, 3 - 5 shots each alternating between 25.39 and 21.53 with NO scope changes.

This was not expected from pellets that weight 3.89 grains difference so how could 0.1 grains or 0.005 grams make a difference.

What are your thoughts.

JTS 21.53 & 25.39 on Med with Red Wolf .jpeg
IMG_2143.jpeg
 
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oledawg said:
Well, you tell me does consistency in pellet weight matter for accuracy? Up until this presented itself, I have been a pellet weigher in .005 grams or .1 grains, 0.1 grain is equal to .006 grams. Pellets would be sorted to either .1 grain groups or .005 gram groups. That was before this.

I have found that my Red Wolf HP .22 likes all the JTS pellets the best, so I am shooting 18.1’s on low power which is around 1010 fps and on med 21.53’s at 1030 fps and still on med the 25.39’s at 960 fps.

So where am I leading? Let’s start with the fact the 25.39 pellet is 3.89 grains heavier than the 21.53. Now lets looks at some groups shot on medium power for both the 25.39 and 21.53’s with absolutely no scope adjustments.

Wind conditions were very mild both days. Pellets were taken from the tin and rolled on my oil pad nothing else did not even visually inspect them. The 15 match targets are 21.53 while the sighter row extreme right is 25.39 do not include the bottom 2 targets in this row. This was several days ago.

Today I shot these 6 targets in this order 8, 9, 10, 5, 4, 3 - 5 shots each alternating between 25.39 and 21.53 with NO scope changes.

This was not expected from pellets that weight 3.89 grains difference so how could 0.1 grains or 0.005 grams make a difference.

What are your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Hi oledawg,

I have a Wolverine R HP .22 - it has the exact same barrel as your .22 Red Wolf HP. My Wolverine does not have the same high power capabilities as your RW, but it shoots the 18.13g at 1,025-1,030 fps.

Thats an extreme high velocity - while still keeping the pellet stable in flight. It must be an extremely FLAT trajectory at this > 1,000 fps velocity.

My guess is that this extremely flat trajectory with high velocity is what makes our rifles somewhat “immune” to differences in pellet weight. I‘m also going to guess that as you get into more “normal“ velocities of 800-900 fps, differences in pellet weights would impact PoI more - especially at 40 yards (and greater distances).

So, our high velocity Daystate HP rifles are a bit unique (IMHO). The only other rifles I have that can maintain accuracy at 1,000+ fps are the .22 LR and .25 LR barrels for my RTI Prophets. These are Lothar Walther polygonal rifling barrels with slow twist rates - very similar to our Daystate HP barrels.

-Ed
 
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EPG said:
Hi oledawg,

I have a Wolverine R HP .22 - it has the exact same barrel as your .22 Red Wolf HP. My Wolverine does not have the same high power capabilities as your RW, but it shoots the 18.13g at 1,025-1,030 fps.

Thats an extreme high velocity - while still keeping the pellet stable in flight. It must be an extremely FLAT trajectory at this > 1,000 fps velocity.

My guess is that this extremely flat trajectory with high velocity is what makes our rifles somewhat “immune” to differences in pellet weight. I‘m also going to guess that as you get into more “normal“ velocities of 800-900 fps, differences in pellet weights would impact PoI more - especially at 40 yards (and greater distances).

So, our high velocity Daystate HP rifles are a bit unique (IMHO). The only other rifles I have that can maintain accuracy at 1,000+ fps are the .22 LR and .25 LR barrels for my RTI Prophets. These are Lothar Walther polygonal rifling barrels with slow twist rates - very similar to our Daystate HP barrels.

-Ed
Click to expand...
Yea Ed I’m sure this does not hold true for every airgun. I appreciate your insight.
 
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NAProf said:
Hi Guys,
Glad you liked my Excel efforts to get my head around why I was having so much trouble with the 30 Yard Challenge. It takes some effort to produce those charts. I would be happy to post an Excel template for anyone who wants to try. But at the end of the day it requires you to measure (as accurately as you can), the windage and elevation offsets from the Bullseye. I try to do it in 1/4 mm increments which is about as good as I can get from my scale and estimating the center of the hole in the target. I then use the size of the scoring pin to determine the score. For the pin I am using (for my .177 to look like a .22) the diameter is 5.66 mm. I scale the circle on the charts to get that size. That's why the holes look big for a .177.

I am including a screen capture of the analysis chart for the best card I shot (199 -19x) just to show how good you have to shoot in order to get those really good scores. I still have not rung the 200 bell. But I keep trying - and now need to try at 40 yds!

Cheers,
Greg
Click to expand...

Greg,

This is an awesome depiction of what it takes to shoot a 200…

… a 200 requires a lot more accuracy than putting 20 shots under a dime at 30 yards…

… it actually requires that you put 20 shots on Roosevelt’s FACE at 30 yards !

I shot a 188 9X on a 30 Masters card today with the .177 Prophet… suddenly that feels really good, lol.

Thanks for sharing the great graphic !
 
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55 degrees here! First card of the day…

Pretty good - gets the mighty Wolverine on the 40 Yard Masters board with a 185 6X.

Interestingly, with the colder temps, velocity has dropped from 1,025 fps this summer to 985 fps now with the 18.13g

Edit: 2nd card of the day was 172 1X - but only two 7s. I just hate wind - and I’m out of practice with the Wolverine.

IMG_3279.jpeg


IMG_3277.jpeg
 
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After the 172 1X 40-Masters card (which looks a lot better than the score - mostly L/R misses for 8s)… gave up on 40 and switched to Prophet .177.

I submit the 195 10X for the 30-Masters leaderboard. (I should have taken a couple more sighters as I lost 3 points on #1 target pair)

It was actually shot with pellets from 2 different tins! I ran out of JSB .177 Monsters and grabbed my other tin - they looked to be a different shape - and they ARE - they were .177 Monster Redesigned. Then I opened up a tin of FX 13.4g - those are the shape of the original Monsters. So I used the FX to complete the card. Will try the redesigned another time.

I followed up the 195 10X with a 192 9X. I wrote the pellet speeds under each target if you’re interested as I ran a shot string with FX radar while shooting the card.

The 192 card made me feel great because it was shot in constant wind. But the breeze was a consistent direction, which is rare in my yard on a hill. It turns out I may not completely stink at reading wind - its more just variable wind kills me.

IMG_3282.jpeg


IMG_3286.jpeg


IMG_3285.jpeg




IMG_3283.jpeg
 
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JaceSpace1369 said:
Did you really shoot in these windy conditions we're having today in cloudy south florida?? Lol
Click to expand...
Haha, after one of the downpours the wind went really light. Timing was good, just a really small window. I did wake up this morning to find my travel canopy in my neighbors yard.
 
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oledawg said:
Well, you tell me does consistency in pellet weight matter for accuracy? Up until this presented itself, I have been a pellet weigher in .005 grams or .1 grains, 0.1 grain is equal to .006 grams. Pellets would be sorted to either .1 grain groups or .005 gram groups. That was before this.

I have found that my Red Wolf HP .22 likes all the JTS pellets the best, so I am shooting 18.1’s on low power which is around 1010 fps and on med 21.53’s at 1030 fps and still on med the 25.39’s at 960 fps.

So where am I leading? Let’s start with the fact the 25.39 pellet is 3.89 grains heavier than the 21.53. Now lets looks at some groups shot on medium power for both the 25.39 and 21.53’s with absolutely no scope adjustments.

Wind conditions were very mild both days. Pellets were taken from the tin and rolled on my oil pad nothing else did not even visually inspect them. The 15 match targets are 21.53 while the sighter row extreme right is 25.39 do not include the bottom 2 targets in this row. This was several days ago.

Today I shot these 6 targets in this order 8, 9, 10, 5, 4, 3 - 5 shots each alternating between 25.39 and 21.53 with NO scope changes.

This was not expected from pellets that weight 3.89 grains difference so how could 0.1 grains or 0.005 grams make a difference.

What are your thoughts.

View attachment 406615View attachment 406614
Click to expand...
Measure head diameter and check hardness. Harder pellets are usually slower same when slightly larger
 
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Hi Guys,
Had a very interesting session today. It was a perfect morning for shooting these targets - sunny, high 50's no wind (don't get that much here near the ocean). Anyway, my purpose today was to check out for myself something that I had seen on Sub12Airgunners. They typically shoot the 8.44 gr JSB in their Sub12 rifles and found that the FX Panthera magazines were deforming the skirts when cycling pellets. So, in their usual fashion, they showed how to modify the spring tension in the mag and where to look for burrs to file, etc. Then they showed that after the mods the pellets did not see the same kind of deformation. I shoot the FX 13.4's (same as JSB Monsters) which have small thin skirts also. So, I modified one of my Crown mags for a check. I also have a couple of Stud Loader magazines that really are meant for slugs, but I threw one of them in the mix.
The check consisted of shooting a 30 Yd Challange card with each magazine. Since the mags hold 22 shots, I used the same type of magazine for the remaining two shots. Here are my results:
First, the modified magazine (the two shots at 12 were with a non-modified mag). Really good card at 199-15X
30 yd Challange 11-19-23 C.jpg


Next came an unmodified magazine. Woopie! I finally rang the 200 bell! And yes, I recheck 11-1 because when I took the pick some of the paper folded back into the pellet hole. Also forgot to note that 6 and 10 were the pairs I chose for my Mulligans.
30 yd Challange 11-19-23 B.jpg


Finally, the Stud Loader Magazine. Yep, it was definitely worse, but not horrible. Though compared to the first two it was really weak at 191 - 12x.
30 yd Challange 11-19-23 A.jpg


So I can't say from this that modifying the Crown mags was worthwhile, but maybe tonight I will do what the Sub12 guys did and cycle some pellets through each and inspect before and after.

But now that I managed a 200 on the regular challenge, I am going to have to work on the Masters and the 40 yd Challenges.

Cheers,
Greg
 
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NAProf said:
Hi Guys,
Had a very interesting session today. It was a perfect morning for shooting these targets - sunny, high 50's no wind (don't get that much here near the ocean). Anyway, my purpose today was to check out for myself something that I had seen on Sub12Airgunners. They typically shoot the 8.44 gr JSB in their Sub12 rifles and found that the FX Panthera magazines were deforming the skirts when cycling pellets. So, in their usual fashion, they showed how to modify the spring tension in the mag and where to look for burrs to file, etc. Then they showed that after the mods the pellets did not see the same kind of deformation. I shoot the FX 13.4's (same as JSB Monsters) which have small thin skirts also. So, I modified one of my Crown mags for a check. I also have a couple of Stud Loader magazines that really are meant for slugs, but I threw one of them in the mix.
The check consisted of shooting a 30 Yd Challange card with each magazine. Since the mags hold 22 shots, I used the same type of magazine for the remaining two shots. Here are my results:
First, the modified magazine (the two shots at 12 were with a non-modified mag). Really good card at 199-15X
View attachment 407825

Next came an unmodified magazine. Woopie! I finally rang the 200 bell! And yes, I recheck 11-1 because when I took the pick some of the paper folded back into the pellet hole. Also forgot to note that 6 and 10 were the pairs I chose for my Mulligans.
View attachment 407827

Finally, the Stud Loader Magazine. Yep, it was definitely worse, but not horrible. Though compared to the first two it was really weak at 191 - 12x.
View attachment 407831

So I can't say from this that modifying the Crown mags was worthwhile, but maybe tonight I will do what the Sub12 guys did and cycle some pellets through each and inspect before and after.

But now that I managed a 200 on the regular challenge, I am going to have to work on the Masters and the 40 yd Challenges.

Cheers,
Greg
Click to expand...

Congrats Greg! Feels great doesn’t it.

You had three great cards.
 
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NAProf said:
Hi Guys,
Had a very interesting session today. It was a perfect morning for shooting these targets - sunny, high 50's no wind (don't get that much here near the ocean). Anyway, my purpose today was to check out for myself something that I had seen on Sub12Airgunners. They typically shoot the 8.44 gr JSB in their Sub12 rifles and found that the FX Panthera magazines were deforming the skirts when cycling pellets. So, in their usual fashion, they showed how to modify the spring tension in the mag and where to look for burrs to file, etc. Then they showed that after the mods the pellets did not see the same kind of deformation. I shoot the FX 13.4's (same as JSB Monsters) which have small thin skirts also. So, I modified one of my Crown mags for a check. I also have a couple of Stud Loader magazines that really are meant for slugs, but I threw one of them in the mix.
The check consisted of shooting a 30 Yd Challange card with each magazine. Since the mags hold 22 shots, I used the same type of magazine for the remaining two shots. Here are my results:
First, the modified magazine (the two shots at 12 were with a non-modified mag). Really good card at 199-15X
View attachment 407825

Next came an unmodified magazine. Woopie! I finally rang the 200 bell! And yes, I recheck 11-1 because when I took the pick some of the paper folded back into the pellet hole. Also forgot to note that 6 and 10 were the pairs I chose for my Mulligans.
View attachment 407827

Finally, the Stud Loader Magazine. Yep, it was definitely worse, but not horrible. Though compared to the first two it was really weak at 191 - 12x.
View attachment 407831

So I can't say from this that modifying the Crown mags was worthwhile, but maybe tonight I will do what the Sub12 guys did and cycle some pellets through each and inspect before and after.

But now that I managed a 200 on the regular challenge, I am going to have to work on the Masters and the 40 yd Challenges.

Cheers,
Greg
Click to expand...
Hello @NAProf

Beautiful shooting on all cards but super on the 200, kudos (y) (y) (y)

And thanks for sharing the information.

ThomasT
 
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I think come Saturday, even if its just1deg C above freezing, i will bring my Vulcan 3 to my friends place and give this a go.

Mind u i do not have a printer but i do have a few of these 5 dot papers, i recon they will do.

5D.jpg


I will put them up at 27.5 M which i believe are 30 Yards.
The 10 ring appear to be 4.5 / 5 mm in diameter, so should correlate OK to the print you guys are shooting.

If thats not good enough, well you will just have to flunk me
 
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I will be shooting doped. :cautious:
Friday i was at the doctor, he using his machine measured my blood pressure 1 time o_O then he measured again o_O then he asked me to take off sweatshirt and he measured again o_O and one more time o_O then he said " i need to talk to my colleague " and left the room. Then he returend with a old fashioned manual blood pressure kit, and then he measured me with that 1 more time for a total of 5 measurements.

And then i was told to go to the pharmacy and get my blood pressure lowering pills, which seem to work as i no longer get headache from lying down, which have plagued me for a few weeks
Been at the docs again today, pressure lower now but still not stellar, i need to measure myself morning and evening to compile a pressure chart.

The fool think i have sleep apnoea, and sure it can give you blood pressure problems, but i sleep just fine when i sleep, the problem is it take me 8-9-10 hours to fall asleep, and i only sleep 3-4 maybe 5 hours.
But as usual when i talk to doctors it is like they only understand Danish and i speak the Bushman Click language. :unsure:
 
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