650 yards, 5 minutes of fun, NAC 2024
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
The north east Airgun classic is an annual event now in its second year. The next major event with long range shooting is the Rocky Mountain Airgun challenge.
https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/rmac-2024.1305260/
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My question is why do organizers keep putting meaningless limits on minimum muzzle energy (in this for 200fpe) ? If you use a light on the target or whether the hit will be visually seen by moving the target, that is up to each shooter.
If he knows he has equipment he can shoot accurately at that distance with, and knows that the impact energy is still sufficient to get the target moving due to the high BC slug, then these requirements are meaningless.
If there is a shooter who will not be able to hit the target, or it will be impossible to sure tell after a hit (due wrong energi or BC slugs), it is only to the detriment of that shooter, but it does not limit others shotrs.
650 yards is a normal distance for which even 100 fpe is enough for airgun. In Ireland and in the USA, .22LR is shot competitively even at 650 yards range, while the impact energy of .22LR due to low BC is half that for airgun and 100fpe than from airgun and suitable slugs, even just .22 calibre.
So what's the real reason for these minimum power limits?
If he knows he has equipment he can shoot accurately at that distance with, and knows that the impact energy is still sufficient to get the target moving due to the high BC slug, then these requirements are meaningless.
If there is a shooter who will not be able to hit the target, or it will be impossible to sure tell after a hit (due wrong energi or BC slugs), it is only to the detriment of that shooter, but it does not limit others shotrs.
650 yards is a normal distance for which even 100 fpe is enough for airgun. In Ireland and in the USA, .22LR is shot competitively even at 650 yards range, while the impact energy of .22LR due to low BC is half that for airgun and 100fpe than from airgun and suitable slugs, even just .22 calibre.
So what's the real reason for these minimum power limits?
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I could be wrong, but it origionated as a Big Bore challenge, so .25cal+.
We would love to have you attend next year to experience the fun and friendship at NAC 2025.
Oh, I'm sure you would be allowed to shoot and M24 in all events. I hope to see you there.
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Im not really impressed given the size of the projectiles. Here's my back deck furthest plate is 10" at 625 yards. You're welcome to shoot here. If you think you can do it..
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The front yard has targets set at 25, 50 and 92 yards for airgun and rimfires.
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thank you for the invitation. Due to the location on the east coast (easier transport from Europe) and the fact that is a competition with the largest distances, this is currently one of the top choices for us when we would like to participate in the USA next season.
My question is primarily directed as in other competitions where I commented the rules to allow as many shooters to compete in as many disciplines as possible, as this will only increase the attractiveness and therefore the excess of the competition.
I understand the limitation on maximum power, which is also necessary in firearms competitions for example for safety reasons or on the contrary more balance, but the other way around (minimum power) it doesn't make much sense to me. In firearms benchrest there is also no restriction that biger calibers can be used, yet the shooters themselves ultimately decided that the most conductive caliber is around 6mm because it gives them the best chance to win.
I would see it the same way here, most power is not always an advantage and 600-700 yards can be shot with more common power. The competition itself should show which combination of caliber and projectile type is best for a given distance and discipline.
Also for competitors outside the US it is complicated to deal with multiple airguns for one competition, just from the logistic point of view in air transport.
Yes I have a personal slug rifle in .25 that meets your requirements and will still have a power reserve, but it means carrying 2 rifles in 2 different calibers even though I know that maybe just one in for example in .223 would be enough for both types of benchrest competition in terms of accuracy at a given distance, but it wouldn't meet the minimum power limit.
Personally, it seems to me here, that someone at the first airgun competition set some rules (I won't go into what they were based on) and since then new competitions are just copying them without any discussion whether it is right or not and I would like to change that. If the rules can be defended in a discussion in front of most shooters then I think it's a valid rule, but if the discussion doesn't even exist then I don't think it's a valid rule. Especially if its only purpose is to limit some competitors, but it doesn't provide any other benefit or need for safety, for example.
So let's open a discussion on why this rule exists and whether it's really necessary.
Some rule changes (perhaps partly due to my minor intervention) have already been made, for example, at the Oregon competition and I have not heard of any complications arising from them. So we already have the first real testing and seems to have been successful.
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Beautiful place for shooting (I honestly envy you). I would just equip longer distances with a loose impact device, as the 400-600 yard may already be difficult to see the impact on the grass, for example after the rain.
I have proved to be a military metal pallet box filled with an oak wood chips
https://youtu.be/v126UolcIMQ
or this
https://youtu.be/maZmZFrOkCc
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Difficult to see? More like almost impossible. The ground is like a bullet sponge. Shooting in front of a sand berm is an awesome advantage in making adjustments. My setup is almost shooting blind. There's a lot of guess work and wasted ammo when missing the plates. I'll look at the videos. The property I'm shooting on to is my neighbors hayfield so I'm limited to what I can set up. I'm thankful for what I have there already.
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There could be a number of reasons why a match director might have a minimum FPE limit. In the past (before the electronic sensors), there could be a minimum needed to activate a target sufficiently to call a hit. Though not FPE, but related, there are a few competitive shooting organizations that have minimum power factors. They want the guns to have enough recoil to represent a load that might have practical purposes other than punching a hole in paper or activating a sensor. A lighter load is typically easier to shoot accurately in these instances.
At EBR, their big bore slug match had a 140fpe minimum for some time, then went to 200fpe minimum in 2022. And 240fpe minimum in 2023, even after sensors and lights were added to most of the targets. My impression is that the match director wants to highlight BIG bore, heavy recoiling rifles suitable for big game. That does leave a hole for those wanting to shoot competitive long range with medium FPE airguns. Though the Oregon match is about the only one that currently fits that model.
Note: I have attended several of these matches and have never seen them actually check a single airgun for compliance with minimum FPE requirements. And I know that some of the airguns did not meet the minimum that is stipulated in the rules. Mostly, it’s an honor system or just a minimum FPE recommendation.
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If it was the recommended energy, then I have no problem with it at all, but it is written as a rule. So it is a problem especially if you would fly over half the world, or just over half the US. In both cases you want to be sure that you will be able to participate on that matche.
At the recommended energy, the shooter would normally be able to start legally in competition and he would only have the disadvantage that he may not get some hits counted as they won't be conclusive enough and he can't make any excuses as he had the stated allowance for the recommended energy.
If it should be a competition that is supposed to imitate hunting with an airgun, the I understand it limitet only for high power airgun, but most competitions from the description does not sound like this. Moreover, the moment you shoot with a benchrest bag and from the bench, there is no question that it is an imitation of hunting with an airgun. From an ethical point of view I do not think anyone who really wants the animal to suffer as little as possible, will not be with Airgun to shoot at more than 200-300 yard, as this is the maximum distance even for many shooters with firearms.
Moreover, nowadays it is not even necessary to use only electronic targets, just switch to technical plastics that can handle hundreds of hits, but the hit is visible even at 1000 yards at a muzzle energy below 100 fpe. At the same time, they can easily handle much higher powers (tested above 200fpe, but in my opinion there is no limit in this respect).
Examples of visibility hits on this target are in videos in my previous post or even this new video, just for 1000 yards.The size ans shape of the target can be easily change and can also be done by animal contours, just use the CNC cutting machine (water jet, laser, etc. ).
At the recommended energy, the shooter would normally be able to start legally in competition and he would only have the disadvantage that he may not get some hits counted as they won't be conclusive enough and he can't make any excuses as he had the stated allowance for the recommended energy.
If it should be a competition that is supposed to imitate hunting with an airgun, the I understand it limitet only for high power airgun, but most competitions from the description does not sound like this. Moreover, the moment you shoot with a benchrest bag and from the bench, there is no question that it is an imitation of hunting with an airgun. From an ethical point of view I do not think anyone who really wants the animal to suffer as little as possible, will not be with Airgun to shoot at more than 200-300 yard, as this is the maximum distance even for many shooters with firearms.
Moreover, nowadays it is not even necessary to use only electronic targets, just switch to technical plastics that can handle hundreds of hits, but the hit is visible even at 1000 yards at a muzzle energy below 100 fpe. At the same time, they can easily handle much higher powers (tested above 200fpe, but in my opinion there is no limit in this respect).
Examples of visibility hits on this target are in videos in my previous post or even this new video, just for 1000 yards.The size ans shape of the target can be easily change and can also be done by animal contours, just use the CNC cutting machine (water jet, laser, etc. ).
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