9000psi compressor? This the next evolution in airguns?

[MadCowCrazy2]

Ever since I saw the AEA Defender I've wanted to get my hands on one. The air cartridges is a really interesting concept and I believe in this technology.
So Joerg Sprave came out with a video yesterday showing some new tech from China (Huben pistol and AEA), at the end he talks about a new compressor that can do 9000psi or 620bar.
He shot a double barrel harpoon gun at 6500psi/450bar. This is really interesting but one worry I have is if say I was wearing a ammo belt filled with 9000psi cartridges. If one malfunctions it will be like a hand grenade going off on my belt/chest.

So is 9000psi/620 bar about to become the next revolution in airguns? Since the air bottles would have to become thicker, would you actually gain any extra shots if the bottle had the same outer diameter? How bad would it be if the tank burst? I've seen 4500psi tanks blow up and it would be really bad if you stood next to one.
What speeds would we be looking at with 9000psi shots in say .22 .25. 30 etc? Airguns would basically gain the same powers as some guns, I can see this leading to airguns being highly restricted or requiring a license.

 

[markhooper]

Ever since I saw the AEA Defender I've wanted to get my hands on one. The air cartridges is a really interesting concept and I believe in this technology.
So Joerg Sprave came out with a video yesterday showing some new tech from China (Huben pistol and AEA), at the end he talks about a new compressor that can do 9000psi or 620bar.
He shot a double barrel harpoon gun at 6500psi/450bar. This is really interesting but one worry I have is if say I was wearing a ammo belt filled with 9000psi cartridges. If one malfunctions it will be like a hand grenade going off on my belt/chest.

So is 9000psi/620 bar about to become the next revolution in airguns? Since the air bottles would have to become thicker, would you actually gain any extra shots if the bottle had the same outer diameter? How bad would it be if the tank burst? I've seen 4500psi tanks blow up and it would be really bad if you stood next to one.
What speeds would we be looking at with 9000psi shots in say .22 .25. 30 etc? Airguns would basically gain the same powers as some guns, I can see this leading to airguns being highly restricted or requiring a license.

well I have not seen high pressure tanks burst, but I have seen the results of just a standard shop compressor tank failing and a good friend of mine saw a oxygen tank valve get busted off and that tank went through a 8" concrete block wall like a torpedo and was not found.. so just thinking about it makes me nervous filling up to 4200 PSI in my rifle that is rated for more..
I don't understand how the cartridge for the aea defender works, especially with the burst disk gets a hole from the firing pin..
but I had a brocock 522 revolver with the tandem cartridges in 22 and it was a great gun after I changed all the o rings to tip quality industrial ones.. I wish they still made them.. wish I could get the single six and the pretty golden boy..
back to the high pressure tanks, I think the highest pressure tank I have seen are my heavy oxygen welding tanks.. but I think they are only rated to 5000 burst pressure.. so guns and tanks will have to catch up to the new compressor.. my guess is also with the higher pressure, you probably will see more power in airguns, but what I would like to see is pistols at normal PCP regulator that were reasonable to call a pistol.. I have the umarex notos with the pistol grip and it's 22" long.. if the moderator was removed it's still 16" and that's pretty big to try to get a holster.. I like the notos and the moderator makes it quiet but I always have to rest it against something because it is just too big and long..
I'd like to see a CO2 sized cartridge that you pressure up to PCP pressures and have a internal regulator so it could turn all the CO2 guns into PCP.. but I have my doubts about it all fitting into a small package like you mentioned
thank you for sharing the video.. it's exciting to see new possibilities..
Mark

 

[rebsr52339]

Anything designed and built by a human can and eventually may destroy itself, maybe with you in the way.

 

[PumaCarl]

If this compressor can fill to 9000psi, than 4500psi should be very easy on it, and therefore a lot more reliable. Reliability to 300 bar at a good price would be great.

 

[FLgunner]

Interesting stuff! I'm still really hoping they make the Huben GK1 with an adapter or threaded barrel so it will accept a moderator! That little compressor is down right scary! But, as previously mentioned, if only filling to 4500 - 5000 psi, you're only using about half it's capacity so it shouldn't be over stressed under the load of filling today's airguns!

 

[RM.510bigbore]

Not a.big deal. Air driven gas booster pumps have been around since WWII...capable up to 20,000 psi....new Scott 5.5 Tanks 5500 psi.

 

[Miami Airgunner]

It won't make the final velocities any higher, nor the guns more powerful.

What it can do is make short barrels more effective.

 

[MadCowCrazy2]

I don't understand how the cartridge for the aea defender works, especially with the burst disk gets a hole from the firing pin..

I'm not 100% sure, I have only seen pictures but I believe it works like this: The cartridge has 2 holes in it that can let out air; the burst disc hole and the front hole where you also fill it. I don't know if it's spring loaded or not but I think the internals push the front hole backwards but when the cartridge is filled the internal pressure causes the rear and front holes to be pushed closed.
So when the burst disc is punctured the pressure holding the front seal shut will try to escape so it pushes the internals back. This clogs the rear hole again but now the front hole is open so the air goes out the front end instead.

As I don't own one yet I can't be 100% sure but my guess is that it works something like this. Basically a pressure valve inside that keeps both front and rear shut when pressurised but once the rear is burst the valve is pushed back opening the front. I do believe there is a lot of pressure on the burst disc because when filled you can see it bulge out, this is what makes me believe the internal pressure works as described above.

Afaik the AEA Defender cartridges are similar in size to 12 gauge shotgun shells and are pumped to 4500psi whilst the new ones in the video seem to be larger, like 8 or 6 gauge and filled to 6500psi.

Also there are refillable Co2 cartridges, I guess you can save some money if you use thousands of them. Then again taking the time to refill when you can just buy them for 0.20-0.40 each seems tedious. If you dare use the china stuff you can buy them for like 0.08 cents each but you have to buy 1000 or more. Think I saw them for 0.03 cents but minimum order was 100 000.

 

[MadCowCrazy2]

It won't make the final velocities any higher, nor the guns more powerful.

What it can do is make short barrels more effective.

How so? I would assume that a plenum holding say 100cc of air under 4500psi would push a pellet slower than 100cc of 9000psi air?
There some diminishing returns going on or? or is there some maximum air velocity that air pressure can't overcome at which point you need explosive pressure aka gunpowder?

 

[Trucker3573]

4500 psi is plenty to have laying around for this guy. Some jobs are just best left to a firearm.

 

[Miami Airgunner]

How so? I would assume that a plenum holding say 100cc of air under 4500psi would push a pellet slower than 100cc of 9000psi air?
There some diminishing returns going on or? or is there some maximum air velocity that air pressure can't overcome at which point you need explosive pressure aka gunpowder?

Air maxes out right at the speed of sound, no matter how much pressure or barrel length you have.

The higher pressure can decrease the time it takes to get there, but the maximum expansion velocity doesn't change.

Gunpowder has the same sorts of limits, they're just higher, and it's based on the same limitations of gas expansion rates.

Want a really fast projectile? Gotta go railgun, no gas involved.

 

[Stubbers]

Air maxes out right at the speed of sound, no matter how much pressure or barrel length you have.

The higher pressure can decrease the time it takes to get there, but the maximum expansion velocity doesn't change.

Gunpowder has the same sorts of limits, they're just higher, and it's based on the same limitations of gas expansion rates.

Want a really fast projectile? Gotta go railgun, no gas involved.

The speed of sound changes significantly with the medium it travels through..ie: pressure

From Wiki:

"However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance: typically, sound travels most slowly in gases, faster in liquids, and fastest in solids. For example, while sound travels at 343 m/s in air, it travels at 1,481 m/s in water (almost 4.3 times as fast) and at 5,120 m/s in iron (almost 15 times as fast)"

 

[MadCowCrazy2]

Want a really fast projectile? Gotta go railgun, no gas involved.

Railguns don't even come close to the gunpower piston airgun if I remember correctly. Don't remember it's name but it was fired using 8kg (16 pounds) of gunpowder. It pushes are large piston that comes to a point, the air becomes superheated and then there is a burst disc that breaks.
Found it, added the info below.

Light-gas gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Arnold Air Force Base's Range-G is the "largest routinely operated two-stage, light-gas gun system in the United States".[2] Range-G utilizes interchangeable launch tubes ranging from a bore diameter of 3.3 inches (84 mm) to 8.0 inches (200 mm) with a 14.0-inch (360 mm) piston weighing up to 2,300 pounds (1,000 kg). Projectile velocities can reach 4.5 kilometres per second (16,000 km/h) for the 8.0-inch (200 mm) configuration and 7 kilometres per second (25,000 km/h) for the 3.3-inch (84 mm) launcher configuration.[2] The primary use of the range facilities at Arnold Air Force Base is the measurement of released kinetic energy upon projectile impact.

Now here is a thought experiment. How hard would it be to create a .22 light-gas gun that uses .22 blanks to push a piston to create the above effect?
Would it generate more power than if you just glued a pellet to the blank and fired it?

 

[Motorhead]

Containment of such HIGH PRESSURE likely would requires sealing to no longer be an o-ring but something more mechanical in nature.
That of a compression crushed medium that once in place can no longer be extruded further by the pressure within the containment vessel.

 

[markhooper]

I'm not 100% sure, I have only seen pictures but I believe it works like this: The cartridge has 2 holes in it that can let out air; the burst disc hole and the front hole where you also fill it. I don't know if it's spring loaded or not but I think the internals push the front hole backwards but when the cartridge is filled the internal pressure causes the rear and front holes to be pushed closed.
So when the burst disc is punctured the pressure holding the front seal shut will try to escape so it pushes the internals back. This clogs the rear hole again but now the front hole is open so the air goes out the front end instead.

As I don't own one yet I can't be 100% sure but my guess is that it works something like this. Basically a pressure valve inside that keeps both front and rear shut when pressurised but once the rear is burst the valve is pushed back opening the front. I do believe there is a lot of pressure on the burst disc because when filled you can see it bulge out, this is what makes me believe the internal pressure works as described above.

Afaik the AEA Defender cartridges are similar in size to 12 gauge shotgun shells and are pumped to 4500psi whilst the new ones in the video seem to be larger, like 8 or 6 gauge and filled to 6500psi.

Also there are refillable Co2 cartridges, I guess you can save some money if you use thousands of them. Then again taking the time to refill when you can just buy them for 0.20-0.40 each seems tedious. If you dare use the china stuff you can buy them for like 0.08 cents each but you have to buy 1000 or more. Think I saw them for 0.03 cents but minimum order was 100 000.

thank you for the explanation on the defender cartridge.. I have not been able to see any parts breakdown to see if they are sealed or rebuild able.. I have seen on YouTube some people have had leaking problems, I was interested in the shorter one with the 9mm or 35 caliber barrel, just for a compact PCP pistol but I couldn't find anything about the cartridges and was worried about just buying a problem.. plus I couldn't find fps to see if it has enough power to even shoot close range accurately.. don't have any interest in shooting arrows.
the only reason I mentioned refillable CO2 cartridges is that I have seen advertised the proton X-2 refillable CO2 cartridge and I don't know if it's any good or available.. I don't actually want to refill with CO2, but basically use it to basically make a CO2 pistol a PCP and refill it with my compressor.. even if it was only good for one magazine.. the proton X-2 supposedly has a regulator, but others say it doesn't.. if no regulator it would only be safe at CO2 pressure around 800 PSI and I don't know if it would have enough air for even one magazine..
any thoughts?
Mark

 

[markhooper]

Containment of such HIGH PRESSURE likely would requires sealing to no longer be an o-ring but something more mechanical in nature.
That of a compression crushed medium that once in place can no longer be extruded further by the pressure within the containment vessel.

I'm not sure about your seal idea, only because I have worked with high pressure hydraulics.. they use several types of fitting.. JIC is similar to flare.. o ring face is a captive o ring in the face that pressed against the other face and held by a nut.. then standard o ring has a backing washer and a nut to tighten up the washer so you can face any direction.. then standard pipe thread with Teflon tape.. I had the least trouble with either of the o ring types but I actually prefer JIC.. no tape or o rings.. I am very sure high pressure hydraulic hoses and especially metal lines would be able to work with PCP pressure, as long as you stayed with the fittings rated for the pressure used..
Mark

 

[markhooper]

Railguns don't even come close to the gunpower piston airgun if I remember correctly. Don't remember it's name but it was fired using 8kg (16 pounds) of gunpowder. It pushes are large piston that comes to a point, the air becomes superheated and then there is a burst disc that breaks.
Found it, added the info below.

Light-gas gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Arnold Air Force Base's Range-G is the "largest routinely operated two-stage, light-gas gun system in the United States".[2] Range-G utilizes interchangeable launch tubes ranging from a bore diameter of 3.3 inches (84 mm) to 8.0 inches (200 mm) with a 14.0-inch (360 mm) piston weighing up to 2,300 pounds (1,000 kg). Projectile velocities can reach 4.5 kilometres per second (16,000 km/h) for the 8.0-inch (200 mm) configuration and 7 kilometres per second (25,000 km/h) for the 3.3-inch (84 mm) launcher configuration.[2] The primary use of the range facilities at Arnold Air Force Base is the measurement of released kinetic energy upon projectile impact.
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Now here is a thought experiment. How hard would it be to create a .22 light-gas gun that uses .22 blanks to push a piston to create the above effect?
Would it generate more power than if you just glued a pellet to the blank and fired it?

I saw a guy on YouTube who put a pellet in a 22 rimfire and then a blank nail gun cartridge.. I don't know what accuracy but it was going over 2000 fps on the chronograph..
there used to be pellet guns that were made for use with blanks, I think they were called flobart.. haven't seen them in a long time.. one note I don't think it would be good to attach a pellet with glue.. might get part of the brass going out your barrel or at least loose accuracy because the glue would probably put the pellet off balance..
but I think this blank ideas are getting out of airguns as far as topic and well it's not actually using air.. while of interest to me it's getting in the area of firearms since you are using gunpowder or even primers.. used to be a convert a pell kit that you could put in say your 357 and it had pellet shells similar to the umarex Colt SAA.. and put in primer and barrel liner.. it's been years but I think BB Pelletier.. AKA Tom Gaylord who writes for pyramid air had a few articles on that..
Mark

 

[markhooper]

Not a.big deal. Air driven ga

Interesting stuff! I'm still really hoping they make the Huben GK1 with an adapter or threaded barrel so it will accept a moderator! That little compressor is down right scary! But, as previously mentioned, if only filling to 4500 - 5000 psi, you're only using about half it's capacity so it shouldn't be over stressed under the load of filling today's airguns!

there's also the evanex viper, I don't know how they compare on price and quality? anyone else have information?

Mark

s booster pumps have been around since WWII...capable up to 20,000 psi....new Scott 5.5 Tanks 5500 psi.

I've seen videos of guys at the range using some type of gas booster pump off the compressed air bottle and I assume it's to get a full full from a bottle that might be low and not able to top off to full pressure.. but I have not seen them for sale in any of the airgun dealers? do you have a source?
Mark

 

[markhooper]

The speed of sound changes significantly with the medium it travels through..ie: pressure

From Wiki:

"However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance: typically, sound travels most slowly in gases, faster in liquids, and fastest in solids. For example, while sound travels at 343 m/s in air, it travels at 1,481 m/s in water (almost 4.3 times as fast) and at 5,120 m/s in iron (almost 15 times as fast)"

how do you figure that air maxes out at speed of sound? not trying to disagree but there are quite a few airguns that using alloy pellets do 1600 fps and speed of sound is around 1000fps depending on temperature and altitude.. on a cold frozen snowy day my Diana 48 and 34 would really crack..
so I don't know for sure, just what I have read and seen.. could be easily wrong.. wouldn't be the first time
Mark

 

[Stubbers]

how do you figure that air maxes out at speed of sound? not trying to disagree but there are quite a few airguns that using alloy pellets do 1600 fps and speed of sound is around 1000fps depending on temperature and altitude.. on a cold frozen snowy day my Diana 48 and 34 would really crack..
so I don't know for sure, just what I have read and seen.. could be easily wrong.. wouldn't be the first time
Mark

I think we agree because I never made this statement "air maxes at speed of sound", I am countering it..