A couple of generic questions about Dot sights...

[Vana2]

I was casually considering a Red Dot sight for my pistol, guess that my wife noticed me viewing the videos and gifted me one for Christmas.

Don't have a clue about the Dot sights. Since my questions are general in nature I thought I'd post in the General Discussion area rather than Pistols or Optics sections.

So some help please...

The general recommendation is to mount the Dot sight as far forward as possible for best field of view. Tried both, don't see much difference. The forward location exaggerates my wobbling, would it be better to mount directly over my hand to minimize the motion?

I notice that changing head or hand position a little bit moves the reticle all over the place but the reticle to barrel relationship appears to remain (relatively) constant. How critical is head/hand position? Would I be better off mounting the Dot sight on a rifle?

Seems that the Dot sights are designed for quick acquisition of man-sized targets, in low light, at very short range... like intruders in the house Are the Dot sights suitable for head-shots on chipmunks at 15 feet or should I stick with iron sights?

Suggestions/recommendations/comments please!

So, mount far forward or at the back?

 

[marflow 777]

put a target the size of the animal's head and try
the thing about dot sights is the dot is on target no matter where your head is
i will tell you that a red dot is an imprecise sight for the most part
a target of what 1-3/4 at 45 feet is never going to be easy and as fast as they are could be near impossible 100% of the time
and position doesn't matter

 

[coastal drifter]

There are red dots meant for rifles and red dots for handguns, there are also dot moa sizes. I have a red dot on a pistol/powder burrner that is accurate as the shooter. Me personally, I can hit one moa groups per every ten yards. The red dot on my wildcat (2mil) is extremely accurate also I would say quarter size groups at 50 yards. Its more the shooter than the dot. Both optics are higher end quality. This group is typical at 40 yards with my wildcat .22 with a cross wind around 5-10mph. BTW on pistols the standard mount is just in front of the Iron sights. Sorry for editing so much but wanter to mention this was one mag 18 shots

 

[MikeVV]

I have both green and red dot (and chevron) sights on most all (many) of my rifles AND pistols.
You may find that some of the following flies in the face of the..."experts" in YouTube videos, but in years (over 7) of experimentation with both fire arms and various air guns, these are my findings, and preferences.

1 - In my experimentation, despite the "experts", I MUCH prefer the sight to be closer to my face. Why...when shooting with BOTH eyes open. (should be doing) it has the effect of removing the sight from my vision. That is, the walls of the sight are seemingly are thinner, and much less visible, than when the sight is farther away from my face.

2 - I ALWAYS use the lowest brightness setting that I can get away with. Why...it allows you to concentrate more on the target...than the dot. The dot should be "secondary" in your vision.

3 - Even with just a round "dot" (vs. "chevron", or upside down triangle), I always put the dot..."under" the target at my chosen target distance. Why...it always allows me to...fully see the target !

4 - Dot sights can be used in very short distance shooting (a few feet) or, 100yrd shooting. Your preference. Of course, longer distance can require magnifiers behind the sight to enlarge the target. Up to 50 or so yards, you should be able to use a green or red dot sight without magnification.
Again, use the lowest brightness setting that you can get away with. The brightness setting will change with the ambient light, and the distance that you are shooting to.

5 - Moving your head / moving the dot, makes ZERO difference. That's just the way that they work. IF...you've sighted the sight in well, then the "dot" can be ANYWHERE on the screen, and over the target...you WILL be...on target.

6 - If you have an astigmatism (eye problems), the dot may not be exactly a clean round dot. It's NOT the sights fault. It's your eyes. Even the cheap, $50 sights, the dot will be round.
If you see less that round dots, give "prism" sights a try. These are a cross between round dot sights and scopes. Just mostly small and light, like a dot sight.

7 - Shooting distance. Like I said above, dot (chevron) sights can be used at most ANY...distance. From 5 feet to over 100 yards.
That's up to the shooter to do his/her due diligence to do the "sighting in" operation properly. Then changing distance "changing distance on the fly" comes from experience / practice for the proper, hold over or under.

8 - Note, that a green dot "may" be easier to use. It is for me, but everyone id different.
I also, have learned that spending a little more on your given sight, will, 99.9% of the time, net you a much better tool. Battery life is normally MUCH better, strength is also MUCH better, as NO ONE is immune from the accidental drop of the gun. Cheap dot sight normally will not survive a drop to the concrete. Most all higher end sights are designed to take a HUGE amount of abuse and still hold zero and light up.

9 - When used on a pistol, it is ALWAYS better to mount the sight as "close" to your eye (or the rear of the gun) as practical. Why...your wrist is a pivot point. The farther the sight is from that..."pivot" point, the more difficult it will be to hold the dot on target. The sight will have less movement the closer it is to the eye, than when it's further away.
THAT's, plain ol "geometry".

Hope this helps some.
And remember..."EXPERIMENTATION" IS THE KEY TO SUCSESS.

Mike

 

[coastal drifter]

I have both green and red dot (and chevron) sights on most all (many) of my rifles AND pistols.
You may find that some of the following flies in the face of the..."experts" in YouTube videos, but in years (over 7) of experimentation with both fire arms and various air guns, these are my findings, and preferences.

1 - In my experimentation, despite the "experts", I MUCH prefer the sight to be closer to my face. Why...when shooting with BOTH eyes open. (should be doing) it has the effect of removing the sight from my vision. That is, the walls of the sight are seemingly are thinner, and much less visible, than when the sight is farther away from my face.

2 - I ALWAYS use the lowest brightness setting that I can get away with. Why...it allows you to concentrate more on the target...than the dot. The dot should be "secondary" in your vision.

3 - Even with just a round "dot" (vs. "chevron", or upside down triangle), I always put the dot..."under" the target at my chosen target distance. Why...it always allows me to...fully see the target !

4 - Dot sights can be used in very short distance shooting (a few feet) or, 100yrd shooting. Your preference. Of course, longer distance can require magnifiers behind the sight to enlarge the target. Up to 50 or so yards, you should be able to use a green or red dot sight without magnification.
Again, use the lowest brightness setting that you can get away with. The brightness setting will change with the ambient light, and the distance that you are shooting to.

5 - Moving your head / moving the dot, makes ZERO difference. That's just the way that they work. IF...you've sighted the sight in well, then the "dot" can be ANYWHERE on the screen, and over the target...you WILL be...on target.

6 - If you have an astigmatism (eye problems), the dot may not be exactly a clean round dot. It's NOT the sights fault. It's your eyes. Even the cheap, $50 sights, the dot will be round.
If you see less that round dots, give "prism" sights a try. These are a cross between round dot sights and scopes. Just mostly small and light, like a dot sight.

7 - Shooting distance. Like I said above, dot (chevron) sights can be used at most ANY...distance. From 5 feet to over 100 yards.
That's up to the shooter to do his/her due diligence to do the "sighting in" operation properly. Then changing distance "changing distance on the fly" comes from experience / practice for the proper, hold over or under.

8 - Note, that a green dot "may" be easier to use. It is for me, but everyone id different.
I also, have learned that spending a little more on your given sight, will, 99.9% of the time, net you a much better tool. Battery life is normally MUCH better, strength is also MUCH better, as NO ONE is immune from the accidental drop of the gun. Cheap dot sight normally will not survive a drop to the concrete. Most all higher end sights are designed to take a HUGE amount of abuse and still hold zero and light up.

9 - When used on a pistol, it is ALWAYS better to mount the sight as "close" to your eye (or the rear of the gun) as practical. Why...your wrist is a pivot point. The farther the sight is from that..."pivot" point, the more difficult it will be to hold the dot on target. The sight will have less movement the closer it is to the eye, than when it's further away.
THAT's, plain ol "geometry".

Hope this helps some.
And remember..."EXPERIMENTATION" IS THE KEY TO SUCSESS.

View attachment 538925
View attachment 538926

Mike

spot on!

 

[Vana2]

I have both green and red dot (and chevron) sights on most all (many) of my rifles AND pistols.
You may find that some of the following flies in the face of the..."experts" in YouTube videos, but in years (over 7) of experimentation with both fire arms and various air guns, these are my findings, and preferences.

1 - In my experimentation, despite the "experts", I MUCH prefer the sight to be closer to my face. Why...when shooting with BOTH eyes open. (should be doing) it has the effect of removing the sight from my vision. That is, the walls of the sight are seemingly are thinner, and much less visible, than when the sight is farther away from my face.

2 - I ALWAYS use the lowest brightness setting that I can get away with. Why...it allows you to concentrate more on the target...than the dot. The dot should be "secondary" in your vision.

3 - Even with just a round "dot" (vs. "chevron", or upside down triangle), I always put the dot..."under" the target at my chosen target distance. Why...it always allows me to...fully see the target !

4 - Dot sights can be used in very short distance shooting (a few feet) or, 100yrd shooting. Your preference. Of course, longer distance can require magnifiers behind the sight to enlarge the target. Up to 50 or so yards, you should be able to use a green or red dot sight without magnification.
Again, use the lowest brightness setting that you can get away with. The brightness setting will change with the ambient light, and the distance that you are shooting to.

5 - Moving your head / moving the dot, makes ZERO difference. That's just the way that they work. IF...you've sighted the sight in well, then the "dot" can be ANYWHERE on the screen, and over the target...you WILL be...on target.

6 - If you have an astigmatism (eye problems), the dot may not be exactly a clean round dot. It's NOT the sights fault. It's your eyes. Even the cheap, $50 sights, the dot will be round.
If you see less that round dots, give "prism" sights a try. These are a cross between round dot sights and scopes. Just mostly small and light, like a dot sight.

7 - Shooting distance. Like I said above, dot (chevron) sights can be used at most ANY...distance. From 5 feet to over 100 yards.
That's up to the shooter to do his/her due diligence to do the "sighting in" operation properly. Then changing distance "changing distance on the fly" comes from experience / practice for the proper, hold over or under.

8 - Note, that a green dot "may" be easier to use. It is for me, but everyone id different.
I also, have learned that spending a little more on your given sight, will, 99.9% of the time, net you a much better tool. Battery life is normally MUCH better, strength is also MUCH better, as NO ONE is immune from the accidental drop of the gun. Cheap dot sight normally will not survive a drop to the concrete. Most all higher end sights are designed to take a HUGE amount of abuse and still hold zero and light up.

9 - When used on a pistol, it is ALWAYS better to mount the sight as "close" to your eye (or the rear of the gun) as practical. Why...your wrist is a pivot point. The farther the sight is from that..."pivot" point, the more difficult it will be to hold the dot on target. The sight will have less movement the closer it is to the eye, than when it's further away.
THAT's, plain ol "geometry".

Hope this helps some.
And remember..."EXPERIMENTATION" IS THE KEY TO SUCSESS.

View attachment 538925
View attachment 538926

Mike

Thanks for the detailed reply Mike! Much appreciated!

 

[.20calguy]

I would like to add a comment about zeroing a dot.
Some use the center of the dot as an aim point which is OK if like you said, you are shooting body size targets. I shoot small targets with mine like shot shells, and bottle caps etc, at 30 yards.
To do that I had to use the dot similar to the brass dot on a rifle sight, zeroing for point of impact to be at the top of the dot at the range I shoot. This is practical if you shoot any fixed range.

 

[Chris_K]

Also remember the dot size matters and can make your point of aim imprecise. The dot size is usually given in MOA, and to my eyes the brighter settings make the dots appear even larger, and trying to center the center of a dot on a small target isn't easy when the dot completely covers it.

 

[coastal drifter]

I have both green and red dot (and chevron) sights on most all (many) of my rifles AND pistols.
You may find that some of the following flies in the face of the..."experts" in YouTube videos, but in years (over 7) of experimentation with both fire arms and various air guns, these are my findings, and preferences.

1 - In my experimentation, despite the "experts", I MUCH prefer the sight to be closer to my face. Why...when shooting with BOTH eyes open. (should be doing) it has the effect of removing the sight from my vision. That is, the walls of the sight are seemingly are thinner, and much less visible, than when the sight is farther away from my face.

2 - I ALWAYS use the lowest brightness setting that I can get away with. Why...it allows you to concentrate more on the target...than the dot. The dot should be "secondary" in your vision.

3 - Even with just a round "dot" (vs. "chevron", or upside down triangle), I always put the dot..."under" the target at my chosen target distance. Why...it always allows me to...fully see the target !

4 - Dot sights can be used in very short distance shooting (a few feet) or, 100yrd shooting. Your preference. Of course, longer distance can require magnifiers behind the sight to enlarge the target. Up to 50 or so yards, you should be able to use a green or red dot sight without magnification.
Again, use the lowest brightness setting that you can get away with. The brightness setting will change with the ambient light, and the distance that you are shooting to.

5 - Moving your head / moving the dot, makes ZERO difference. That's just the way that they work. IF...you've sighted the sight in well, then the "dot" can be ANYWHERE on the screen, and over the target...you WILL be...on target.

6 - If you have an astigmatism (eye problems), the dot may not be exactly a clean round dot. It's NOT the sights fault. It's your eyes. Even the cheap, $50 sights, the dot will be round.
If you see less that round dots, give "prism" sights a try. These are a cross between round dot sights and scopes. Just mostly small and light, like a dot sight.

7 - Shooting distance. Like I said above, dot (chevron) sights can be used at most ANY...distance. From 5 feet to over 100 yards.
That's up to the shooter to do his/her due diligence to do the "sighting in" operation properly. Then changing distance "changing distance on the fly" comes from experience / practice for the proper, hold over or under.

8 - Note, that a green dot "may" be easier to use. It is for me, but everyone id different.
I also, have learned that spending a little more on your given sight, will, 99.9% of the time, net you a much better tool. Battery life is normally MUCH better, strength is also MUCH better, as NO ONE is immune from the accidental drop of the gun. Cheap dot sight normally will not survive a drop to the concrete. Most all higher end sights are designed to take a HUGE amount of abuse and still hold zero and light up.

9 - When used on a pistol, it is ALWAYS better to mount the sight as "close" to your eye (or the rear of the gun) as practical. Why...your wrist is a pivot point. The farther the sight is from that..."pivot" point, the more difficult it will be to hold the dot on target. The sight will have less movement the closer it is to the eye, than when it's further away.
THAT's, plain ol "geometry".

Hope this helps some.
And remember..."EXPERIMENTATION" IS THE KEY TO SUCSESS.

View attachment 538925
View attachment 538926

Mike

What weight pellets and FPS do you shoot with the AP16. What's the average group size and how many full power shots are you getting on a fill. Also did it come with a threaded barrel. Thanks

 

[BBGunn]

Despite what you may have read, 'red dot' sights DO have parallax error. You were correct when you wrote that dot sights were designed for close quarters use on large targets. The parallax error is small enough that the POI is irrelevant at close range for man-sized targets.

If you are trying to shoot a tiny group on paper with a red dot sight you will need to be very aware that the dot stays in the middle of the scope picture for each shot.

I have red dot sights on several various airguns, both handgun and rifle. I have shot both paper for groups, and tin-cans for fun. The red dot is a great choice for backyard plinking on a variety of targets but not the best choice for precision target, or vermin shooting.

 

[JDGriz]

The dot is focused at infinity (or the stated spec-ed parallax distance) which means that wobbles are the same at any mounting position - it moves like a laser beam spot which is only visible through a small glass window. Size of the window would appear to be slightly smaller when forward mounted, compared to the size of the dot which is constant at any distance from the eye, that's all.
For max accuracy keep the dot in the same place within the window, unless the sight states a low parallax distance (like 20 yards) and you happen to be shooting at 20 yards, in which case it doesn't matter.
I personally prefer forward mounted red dots; the support hand can press the sight buttons more easily and the lenght of rail or airgun behind the dot can help with more natural lining up.

 

[Tumblinginflight]

Pistol, over the grip. Rifle, as far forward as is comfortable in my setups. One note about dot brightness, especially as it pertains to pesting; the dot brightness required to get a precise aim point without bloom is highly dependent on ambient light. If you’ve been shooting indoors and transition to full sun to shoot a chipper, you will never see the dot. The opposite is also true. I’ve you’ve adjusted dot brightness for full sun and move to shade, you’ll have a lot of bloom/flare/bleed. Some auto adjust and in my experience do ok, but not perfect. Just another consideration if your gun is not dedicated to one specific purpose.

 

[IcySwan1]

The NRA recognized Bullseye shooters were getting old and have a hard time seeing three planes of the sight picture so they allowed red dots. It doesn’t make you a better shooter as such, it just allows old eyes to continue to compete. there is a difference between a red dot and a holograph sight. I assume you are talking about the former. The best red dot sights are made in Japan and have the ability to change the size of the red dot itself which is handy as you change distances and whether you want to cover the X or not. You can change brightness. And they come in 1 inch or 30mm tubes depending on your preference.

For shooting pests I doubt it matters what you get, but you can get very accurate, highly adjustable red dots if you want.

Good shooting.

Mike

 

[Roboslug]

As with a scope, a dot sight sight won't make any weapon more or less accurate. When using iron sights one is trying to see/focus on the front sight, rear sight and target. The dot sight eliminates the rear sight becomes a bead on a shotgun - sorta. While you can focus on the front sight with both eyes, the dot is only seen by the master eye (on a pistol). I have not used one on a rifle. My first instinct was to focus on the dot and let the target blur. After much experimentation and listening to others I now focus on the target and let the dot be blurry. Just as your eyes will find the center of the rear sight (using irons), your eye will find the dot.

Also consider the size of the dot compared to the size of a "normal" front sight. It is much smaller, therefore precise. Using dot sights take commitment.

For a change try putting painters tape over the front of the sight. This will force one to use both eyes and use the weak eye to focus on the target.

Here is an interesting article (to me anyway).

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Aiming the Red Dot Sight

I have found that many shooters think entirely too much. This is not rocket science, because if it were, I would not be a shooter. Hence, I am not smart enough to shoot badly. When Erich Bujung was the Olympic Pistol Team coach, he always said, “No stinking thinking. The mind is a terrible thing...

www.ssusa.org

 

[coastal drifter]

As with a scope, a dot sight sight won't make any weapon more or less accurate. When using iron sights one is trying to see/focus on the front sight, rear sight and target. The dot sight eliminates the rear sight becomes a bead on a shotgun - sorta. While you can focus on the front sight with both eyes, the dot is only seen by the master eye (on a pistol). I have not used one on a rifle. My first instinct was to focus on the dot and let the target blur. After much experimentation and listening to others I now focus on the target and let the dot be blurry. Just as your eyes will find the center of the rear sight (using irons), your eye will find the dot.

Also consider the size of the dot compared to the size of a "normal" front sight. It is much smaller, therefore precise. Using dot sights take commitment.

For a change try putting painters tape over the front of the sight. This will force one to use both eyes and use the weak eye to focus on the target.

Here is an interesting article (to me anyway).

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Aiming the Red Dot Sight

I have found that many shooters think entirely too much. This is not rocket science, because if it were, I would not be a shooter. Hence, I am not smart enough to shoot badly. When Erich Bujung was the Olympic Pistol Team coach, he always said, “No stinking thinking. The mind is a terrible thing...

www.ssusa.org

good read

 

[Revoman]

My 2¢....

Tube dots, which are weightier (drawback for some), are easier to attain the dot/sight picture (at least IMO).
Many that use the small screen dot, red or green, no matter, have some issues 'finding' the dot which takes more time and becomes frustrating after not being able to locate the dot within a minute.
Some remedy this by holding the pistol closer to the eye, then pushing it directly away from you while still maintaining the dot that is more easily found while close up....some still can't find the dot.
As stated above there are different diameter tube dot sights, I would still opt for the largest diameter available as you should be shooting with both eyes open (using irons or dots), and the larger diameter tube gives a better sight picture.
As a PB handgun shooter, I switched to dots about 12 years ago using a tube sight. Although close by some reasoning, at 25 yards, shooting .38 special, most shots (missed one....) fall within the small 'X' ring (not bragging, just to show that they are in fact accurate when used correctly). This with a 3 MOA tube dot sight.

mike

 

[AirNGasman]

Mount it wherever you like it best, the fore/aft position will not make a flip difference. Your head position will also make no difference in point of impact, it will shoot where the dot is.

No, you wouldn't be better off mounting it on a rifle.

No matter the size of your dot, chipmunks at 15' should be a chip-shot (pun intended).

I've attached a related chapter.

View attachment AP SIghts pdf.pdf

 

[Vana2]

As with a scope, a dot sight sight won't make any weapon more or less accurate. When using iron sights one is trying to see/focus on the front sight, rear sight and target. The dot sight eliminates the rear sight becomes a bead on a shotgun - sorta. While you can focus on the front sight with both eyes, the dot is only seen by the master eye (on a pistol). I have not used one on a rifle. My first instinct was to focus on the dot and let the target blur. After much experimentation and listening to others I now focus on the target and let the dot be blurry. Just as your eyes will find the center of the rear sight (using irons), your eye will find the dot.

Also consider the size of the dot compared to the size of a "normal" front sight. It is much smaller, therefore precise. Using dot sights take commitment.

For a change try putting painters tape over the front of the sight. This will force one to use both eyes and use the weak eye to focus on the target.

Here is an interesting article (to me anyway).

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Aiming the Red Dot Sight

I have found that many shooters think entirely too much. This is not rocket science, because if it were, I would not be a shooter. Hence, I am not smart enough to shoot badly. When Erich Bujung was the Olympic Pistol Team coach, he always said, “No stinking thinking. The mind is a terrible thing...

www.ssusa.org

Thanks for the link, it's a good read!

Coming from a slingshot/bare bow background where instinctive shooting is normal, and without someone to teach me otherwise, I learned to shoot by focusing on the target. I shoot a rifle (plinking) the same way as I do a shotgun, by mounting the weapon consistently and knowing by feel where it's going to shoot.

Think this red dot is going to work out fine.

Cheers!