A little thought experiment on classes (good vibes only)
- Thread starter scotton
- Start date
Ok, so first, remember that Scotton ASKED 
... "So now tell me what your "ideal world" field target would look like"
A center-fire precision rifle kinda match. Keep the 20ft lb limit, allow all aids, bring back attached bipods, allow prone again, allow slugs (again, under 20ftlbs...), push the range back, starting at 20 yards and out to 65. NO forced positions, but targets oh, say 25 yards or closer have a smaller KZ. And throw in, at random, some smaller KZ's than the rules would say normally for that distance (ie, a 40 yard target may have a 1/2" KZ....). Reduce the time per lane (for a 4 shot lane) to 4 minutes TOTAL. And-while I'd mutter obscenities at them under my breath-- Id expect the match directors to get even more evil and creative setting the course under ^^those rules.
(yea totally ignored WFTF, and springers... and while I have a way of allowing ^^^ alongside WFTF and springers, I am very aware of the additional logistical burden setting up the course for what I described and WFTF on the same field)
Seriously though, Id support most changes to the game that a)helps grow the sport and b)keeps current shooters in the game for longer....
... "So now tell me what your "ideal world" field target would look like"A center-fire precision rifle kinda match. Keep the 20ft lb limit, allow all aids, bring back attached bipods, allow prone again, allow slugs (again, under 20ftlbs...), push the range back, starting at 20 yards and out to 65. NO forced positions, but targets oh, say 25 yards or closer have a smaller KZ. And throw in, at random, some smaller KZ's than the rules would say normally for that distance (ie, a 40 yard target may have a 1/2" KZ....). Reduce the time per lane (for a 4 shot lane) to 4 minutes TOTAL. And-while I'd mutter obscenities at them under my breath-- Id expect the match directors to get even more evil and creative setting the course under ^^those rules.
(yea totally ignored WFTF, and springers... and while I have a way of allowing ^^^ alongside WFTF and springers, I am very aware of the additional logistical burden setting up the course for what I described and WFTF on the same field)
Seriously though, Id support most changes to the game that a)helps grow the sport and b)keeps current shooters in the game for longer....
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Out of my IMMENSE respect for Sasquatch... I mean SasSquat... I mean SasScott... I will attempt to suppress my natural propensities for conflict, antagonism, provocation, facetiousness and offensive humor in order to honor his request to keep this thread Kumbaya. Here Sas; let me take your hand. My; what HUGE mitts you have!
I'll try to not only keep my commentary a bit less 'colorful' than usual, but build upon SasScott's basic approach- SIMPLICITY. But first, an adage I not only strongly believe in, but LIVE. "Simplicity is the hallmark of good design."
Two divisions, of course. Not sure (yet) if I completely agree with only one class, but do salute Sas'es's simple approach.
I wouldn't allow rangefinders, but have a better way to level the range-finding playing field; no matter HOW expensive the scopes competing against we scope tightwads. Actually, I can't claim this suggestion as my own genius; it's simpley a throw-back to simplerer times.
Electrical-tape over all scope yardage markings! That's how we did it when I got into field target, and I MISS IT.
BTW, no bracketing allowed.
Uh-oh... did I just open a can of worms? Purely INADVERTANT; trust me!
Respeckt,
Og
I'll try to not only keep my commentary a bit less 'colorful' than usual, but build upon SasScott's basic approach- SIMPLICITY. But first, an adage I not only strongly believe in, but LIVE. "Simplicity is the hallmark of good design."
Two divisions, of course. Not sure (yet) if I completely agree with only one class, but do salute Sas'es's simple approach.
I wouldn't allow rangefinders, but have a better way to level the range-finding playing field; no matter HOW expensive the scopes competing against we scope tightwads. Actually, I can't claim this suggestion as my own genius; it's simpley a throw-back to simplerer times.
Electrical-tape over all scope yardage markings! That's how we did it when I got into field target, and I MISS IT.
BTW, no bracketing allowed.
Uh-oh... did I just open a can of worms? Purely INADVERTANT; trust me!
Respeckt,
Og
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Ok I’ll bite ….
Unlimited class,
WFTF pcp and Spring.
Unlimited: There would be no complaints about what aids to use, you can use an underwater- satellite guided gyroscopic stabilizer, laser range finder, attached bipod’s, increase foot pounds to 35 so there would be less complaints about missing due to wind, slugs would be allowed, jackets, benchrests. I’d allow clamping your rifle to your wheelchair. Eliminate all forced positions in unlimited. Allow wind manometer‘s. I’d allow mulligans for your first shot so you can see what you did wrong and correct it for the second shot. I would allow tripods. Zero time limits. No Killzone smaller than an inch. I would allow zero penalties if you finished early because you were too tired or losing desire. heck, I would even set your scores based off of percentage hits. So if you shot five shots and you got them all, you can call it quits and go home. But if you finish, then you’re eligible for a medal if you have a longer winning streak. I would coordinate with the Boy Scouts, to assist with carrying everybody’s equipment. Or maybe even Hooter’s girls.
This is the spirit of inclusivity, anything short of that is too restrictive. I would print out participation ribbons for everybody. I would allow a loaner first place medals/trophies so you can take home to your wife to tell her that you got first place. Finally, I would institute a loaner system for prize money, so you could tell your spouse that shooting is profitable.
And then there is WFTF.
Unlimited class,
WFTF pcp and Spring.
Unlimited: There would be no complaints about what aids to use, you can use an underwater- satellite guided gyroscopic stabilizer, laser range finder, attached bipod’s, increase foot pounds to 35 so there would be less complaints about missing due to wind, slugs would be allowed, jackets, benchrests. I’d allow clamping your rifle to your wheelchair. Eliminate all forced positions in unlimited. Allow wind manometer‘s. I’d allow mulligans for your first shot so you can see what you did wrong and correct it for the second shot. I would allow tripods. Zero time limits. No Killzone smaller than an inch. I would allow zero penalties if you finished early because you were too tired or losing desire. heck, I would even set your scores based off of percentage hits. So if you shot five shots and you got them all, you can call it quits and go home. But if you finish, then you’re eligible for a medal if you have a longer winning streak. I would coordinate with the Boy Scouts, to assist with carrying everybody’s equipment. Or maybe even Hooter’s girls.
This is the spirit of inclusivity, anything short of that is too restrictive. I would print out participation ribbons for everybody. I would allow a loaner first place medals/trophies so you can take home to your wife to tell her that you got first place. Finally, I would institute a loaner system for prize money, so you could tell your spouse that shooting is profitable.
And then there is WFTF.
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Well, the OP was pretty wide open in his invitation:
And I understand that there are hundreds and thousands of people involved and invested in this field of FT.
So, throwing out the book of FT isn't quite realistic when considering a worldwide sport.
But on a small and very local scale, I've been dreaming of an "ideal world field target" (OP!) — that's close to real life hunting — and with the level of equipment (incl. prices) that we enjoy NOW, not decades ago.....
So, I'm not proposing to change FT as practised worldwide.
Kumbaya!!
All I'm describing is a local "ideal world".
A match guide walks the shooter along a path through the woods, or through the fields, or down the street of a ghost town.
In the army in realistic combat shooting practice in groups, every shooter gets a guide who watches over the safety of the simulation.
They came to a designated spot where a V-shaped angle points into the target area.
There, somewhere out there hangs or sits a 1:1 sized, animal shaped metal plate.
They are thick steel and allow up to .30cal — with no power limits. Just like real hunting.
The match guide starts a timer, depending on both the type of animal and the range a shorter or longer time.
The shooter has that limited time available to spot(!) the target.
●Select a location to engage the target from (on the ground, or gun rested on something nature offers, anywhere within a 15 yard range, that could be rocks or a tree trunk for a rest).
●Acquire the target.
●Range it (guess it, or LRF, ir parallax ranging).
●Adjust for elevation and wind — whatever method the shooter deems best for the range, his gun's PBR, the time limit, and his/her personal style.
●And — take a shot.
First shot hit counts double. In case of a miss, a second is allowed (only 1 point).
The shooter has all of today's common technology at his/her disposal (though there would probably be a weight limit to make the carrying of gear realistic to a real hunt):
range finder, scope ranging, slugs to fight the wind, sling, butt-hooks, .....
Then the match guide leads the shooter to the next target station.
If the targets can be placed along a fairly straight path then several shooters with their guides can be at different target stations as no-one is in the line of fire of the other shooters.
Kumbaya.
Remember, I live in a country where
●cars don't stop at red lights after midnight,
●a bachelor's degree requires ≈6 years to complete,
●the potatoe was first domesticated here (we have 5000+ different types),
●we're home to penguins, sloths, and 20ft+ long boa constrictors.
●the president elect is in prison, the one before him shot himself in the head while in office,
●Perú has the best food. Hands down.
Peru is an amazing country — why not start an amazing field target competition?
Matthias
And I understand that there are hundreds and thousands of people involved and invested in this field of FT.
So, throwing out the book of FT isn't quite realistic when considering a worldwide sport.
But on a small and very local scale, I've been dreaming of an "ideal world field target" (OP!) — that's close to real life hunting — and with the level of equipment (incl. prices) that we enjoy NOW, not decades ago.....
So, I'm not proposing to change FT as practised worldwide.
Kumbaya!!
All I'm describing is a local "ideal world".
A match guide walks the shooter along a path through the woods, or through the fields, or down the street of a ghost town.In the army in realistic combat shooting practice in groups, every shooter gets a guide who watches over the safety of the simulation.
They came to a designated spot where a V-shaped angle points into the target area.There, somewhere out there hangs or sits a 1:1 sized, animal shaped metal plate.
They are thick steel and allow up to .30cal — with no power limits. Just like real hunting.
The match guide starts a timer, depending on both the type of animal and the range a shorter or longer time. The shooter has that limited time available to spot(!) the target.●Select a location to engage the target from (on the ground, or gun rested on something nature offers, anywhere within a 15 yard range, that could be rocks or a tree trunk for a rest).
●Acquire the target.
●Range it (guess it, or LRF, ir parallax ranging).
●Adjust for elevation and wind — whatever method the shooter deems best for the range, his gun's PBR, the time limit, and his/her personal style.
●And — take a shot.
First shot hit counts double. In case of a miss, a second is allowed (only 1 point).
The shooter has all of today's common technology at his/her disposal (though there would probably be a weight limit to make the carrying of gear realistic to a real hunt):range finder, scope ranging, slugs to fight the wind, sling, butt-hooks, .....
Then the match guide leads the shooter to the next target station.If the targets can be placed along a fairly straight path then several shooters with their guides can be at different target stations as no-one is in the line of fire of the other shooters.
Kumbaya.
Remember, I live in a country where
●cars don't stop at red lights after midnight,
●a bachelor's degree requires ≈6 years to complete,
●the potatoe was first domesticated here (we have 5000+ different types),
●we're home to penguins, sloths, and 20ft+ long boa constrictors.
●the president elect is in prison, the one before him shot himself in the head while in office,
●Perú has the best food. Hands down.
Peru is an amazing country — why not start an amazing field target competition?
Matthias
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That's what I used to shoot. We also are only allowed a monopod, not fixed to the gun, to shoot from in hunter class. I've recently moved up to open which allows range finders and you don't have to shoot positionals. My knees don't like the kneeling position due to unwise decisions made in years past.
Taking away some of the shooting aids in categories like Hunter i.e. parallax wheels, bipods, range finders etc would put the more of the onus back on the shooter. It would also help differentiate the classes more. Keeping high score awards purely at the class level would get away from the pissing and moaning "he shot an easier class than I did".
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Or how about WFTFers man up and lose the shooting jackets, the 80x scopes with huge tumor ranging side wheels by substituting with 2x scopes, also getting rid of butt hooks, bum bags, knee rolls, or anything else that helps make a person steadier, plus ban specialized positions only few can contort into and do a lane in a 2 minute time limit.
See the sword cut two ways, lol.
And Garrett I say this in jest like you did but there is a lot of irony going on here and it comes down to why and how we use aids in the sport.
Okay I agree about not using tripods. While the one I used for a couple years wasn't very steady even when clamped there are tripods such as RRS that are 99% as steady as a benchrest table.
Gotta be at least a few rules within reason but...
IMHO
The sport shouldn't be about guessing by whatever method the distance to the target.
Nor about what aids we use.
Nor who is the best positional shooter.
Nor who can gumby.
It should be about who gets the wind right on the smallest and farthest targets KZ's.
Of course having fun is my #1 goal and if I can avoid mistakes while knocking down most of the targets it's mission accomplished.
Even if I have to hang out with a WFTFer lol. Jk.
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Hahaha i knew you'd respond. Nawww, you got one that follows the international rules and another that can do whatever they want. It's simple really. But then you'd get people complaining about it being easier. too easy maybe? or maybe not? Oh, but wait... then there would be complaints of an arms race lol. Is it time to go back in time to Daisy Red Ryders w open sights? See full circle.Or how about WFTFers man up and lose the shooting jackets, the 80x scopes with huge tumor ranging side wheels by substituting with 2x scopes, also getting rid of butt hooks, bum bags, knee rolls, or anything else that helps make a person steadier, plus ban specialized positions only few can contort into and do a lane in a 2 minute time limit.
See the sword cut two ways, lol.
And Garrett I say this in jest like you did but there is a lot of irony going on here and it comes down to why and how we use aids in the sport.
Okay I agree about not using tripods. While the one I used for a couple years wasn't very steady even when clamped there are tripods such as RRS that are 99% as steady as a benchrest table.
Gotta be at least a few rules within reason but...
IMHO
The sport shouldn't be about guessing by whatever method the distance to the target.
Nor about what aids we use.
Nor who is the best positional shooter.
Nor who can gumby.
It should be about who gets the wind right on the smallest and farthest targets KZ's.
Of course having fun is my #1 goal and if I can avoid mistakes while knocking down most of the targets it's mission accomplished.
Even if I have to hang out with a WFTFer lol. Jk.
LoL
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That's why I mentioned to leave WFTF as is.
Edit - Heck it'd be fine by me if we all shot sub 12fpe to even out the game.
Yep the dilemma will never be solved.
Edit - Heck it'd be fine by me if we all shot sub 12fpe to even out the game.
Yep the dilemma will never be solved.
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IMHO at this point in the American FT game, Open, Hunter, and Unlimited, should all be combined into one class with LRF's allowed. Hunter can dial and use whatever magnification they wish.
Why, because I've seen it happen too many times now that the best shooter who got the wind right the most and made the least mistakes was the match high score regardless of division.
A couple months ago my friend Bobby got high score not using any aids and he's around 70.
Combine springer classes. LRF allowed.
Also because the people setting up the course are using a LRF to make sure the targets are no closer than 10y, also no farther than 55y, won't have an advantage anymore knowing the exact distance to the farther targets.
Leave WFTF as is.
But I also think the best of these are fully capable of getting high match score.
Set up kneeling lanes with exactly twice the difficulty factor of the offhand lanes.
Half point per hit if sticks are used in offhand.
Extend the farthest distance from 55y to 65y.
Ha, the irony, wouldn't you know it Lauren got a 48/48 in WFTF achieving high match score yesterday in our Mormon lake FT match.
I got 46/48 in Freestyle, and Carl got 45/48 winning 1st in Hunter. Normal switching winds around 1-4 mph with gusts to 7-8 mph.
What was the prominent determining factor?? It was Lauren's prowess on the positional lanes, 4 kneeling and 4 offhand.
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I was squadded with Larry yesterday and chose to shoot Open at the last minute. I shot a 45/48 also, missed two offhanders and used the wrong marks on my sidewheel for the third miss. That 25" Veteran is a bear to shoot offhand.
I shot through again afterwards, this time in Hunter, and with a different Veteran, same story, 45/48. Wind got me on one and the other two misses were offhand. Veterans are tough to shoot offhand, especially without any offhand shooting aids.
Sooooo..... positionals almost always determine the winners. And positionals this time went to the shooting jackets and big butt hook and knee risers.
I still agree with the OP, let the WFTFers do their thing, and let the rest of us (the sub20fpe crowd) use whatever combination of equipment we choose to use. It's already an arms race, let's fully brace it.
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"It's already an arms race, let's fully brace it."
Some might miss that altogether, others might think it a mis-spelling, yet others a Freudian slip. Great word-play, FL!
Point taken.Upvote 0
The sport shouldn't be about:
guessing by whatever method the distance to the target.
Nor about what aids we use.
Nor who is the best positional shooter.
Nor who can gumby.
It should be about who gets the wind right on the smallest and farthest targets KZ's.
This is a fun topic because it forces us to reevaluate everything.
so I'll continue...
"The sport shouldn't be about:
guessing by whatever method the distance to the target.
Nor about what aids we use.
Nor who is the best positional shooter.
Nor who can gumby.
It should be about who gets the wind right on the smallest and farthest targets KZ's." (lol that would make it "Wind Target"?)
let me add some further questions...
Should it be about timing?
Should it be about self-control?
Should it be about mastering your equipment?
Should it be about innovation?
Should it be about stagnation (those who call it an arms race)?
Should it be about the power plant?
Should it be about an absolute level playing ground?
Should it be catered to the least physically fit?
Should it be about awarding or penalizing those who are most physically able?
Should it be about awarding to age, or even gender?
Should it be about balding status (hair vs. no hair)?
Should it be about those that can't determine the distance?
Should it be about equipment choice?
Should it be about what sitting position (bag, ground, bucket, lounge chair, belly)?
Should it be about mastering your trajectory?
Should it be about pellet choice?
Should it be about vision difficulties?
Should it be about whether or not you are restricted on time?
Should it be about whether you can hold up your gun or not?
Should it be about who uses what power level to buck the wind?
Should it be about who uses an Altoids tin, a leather receptacle, foam, or even a frog to hold their pellets?
Should it be about whether or not you can afford to travel to a match, a GP, or even Nats?
The beauty of this is that this is a multi-faceted sport, with all these things contributing to the sport itself. There are fundamental elements that have a common denominator, but the best common denominator is that IS multifaceted. And if you excel at one element and not at another, you still have the potential to raise your score by focusing on your assets and strengths. And those that can excel in most of those variables strategically, invariably will win.
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Or maybe I'm just using a phone that autosubs words."It's already an arms race, let's fully brace it."
Some might miss that altogether, others might think it a mis-spelling, yet others a Freudian slip. Great word-play, FL!
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Garrett,
I find your post very insightful — as it goes back to the roots of a shooting competition.
I have never seen it the way you put it — but your general question is awesome:
➠ What should the competition be about?
And reworded:
➠ What are we trying to measure and compare in the competition?
As I continue to dream up a very local, very limited competition here in Peru, this kind of approach will help me steer in the best possible direction.
Matthias
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You forgot one.....
Should it be about who can spend the most on their rig?
There were 17 or 18 shooters present at the local match this weekend, and from rigs that I looked at, the two highest scores were probably 2 of the 3 most expensive rigs there. And by rig I'm talking: gun, scope, riser, shooting jacket, etc.
So somewhat of a chicken or the egg....do the most dedicated to the game choose to spend the most? Does spending that much make it easier to justify practice (like paying for a gym membership makes us go to the gym)? Does spending big bucks increase our scores? (Yes! when coupled with skill, derived from enough dedication to practic).
Both of those two shooters are talented and dedicated to practicing, I'm not saying their wins aren't deserved. Just noting how much of a factor quality equipment is in this game, as "we reevaluate everything."
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I missed your post.
Great shooting BTW.
You are always right there at or near the top.
Carl in Hunter and I were sqauded together and tied throughout the match and he missed the very last shot because the wind switched. Darn that's frustrating.
I was just happy that I didn't make any mental errors and no weird misses this time.
I think the previous scope I had on my Thomas, a Vector 5-30, hadn't been working right this year
because I didn’t have the odd flyers during the FT match this time once I had changed over to my Athlon ETR 15-60x56. Getting my dope down with the new scope this last month I didn't have any flyers so my suspicion became the other scope.
All along beforehand I thought this problem was due to a bad batch of pellets?!
Man I hate gun or scope problems!!!!!!!
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Scotton, Becareful what water you drink. The Nestle Waters (Poland Sping) brand is pumped out of the ground up here in Maine. In fact most of it comes out of an Aquafier right here in my home town (Hollis, Me) That poop will give you crazy ideas that don't conform to the AFFTA philosophy. Pretty much Deja vu from our thoughts last fall, and I think you were a part of that conversation.
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