Okay, okay some of you say that the Air Arms HFT500 is a Competent benchrest gun, capable of shooting 250's and winning matches. All I'm asking is, prove it. Post some links to club matches or competitions listing equipment that show the 500 winning. I'm in the market for a new/used BR rifle, and I don't want to spend any more than necessary just like anyone else for a good gun. But I can tell you that over here in the state's anyway, nobody uses an AA HFT500 that I know of. Sure, some folks come out with Daystate Hunstman's, HW100's, AA510's and the like, but the list is usually always Thomas, FX, RAW and Daystate (the expensive ones.) It takes something special to actually be a 250 gun. But if you can show me that they are winning, I'll be happy to jump on that bandwagon.
Resources AA HFT500 Good for Benchrest? - OK, prove it!
- Thread starter Scrench
- Start date
The HFT 500 will work well in the light varmint (LV) class (less than 12 fpe). I used to compete in the HV class with a TM1000 and did well with it. Since I moved, there is no BR shooting around here, so I sold the rig. Since, I bought an AA 510, Daystate Revere and the AA HFT500. Of the three, the HFT is way more accurate at 25 yd or less, so if you have one hanging around, don't be afraid to use it. If you plan to get deeply involved in 25M BR and your budget allows, then I would get a RAW TM or BM 1000, Thomas or something specifically designed for that purpose. However, scoring high points is mostly dependent on the guy pulling the trigger, so it's up to you. Here's a target I shot with my HFT just to see if it is capable.
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Choked Huh? on that last shot. Other reasons wind , mirage, light change, the list is never ending. Great target. Still using my Annie 2025 or Walther kkm from that same time period. Looks like that rest is physically attached to the gun , rules say no to that in regulation ABR unless something has changed.
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I have a RAW BM 500 for sale. Ir is a pre Air Froce gun built by Martin. Itvwas recentlyy rebuilt & is ready to go $1500 delivered in CONUS. Email steve at sworegon dot com.
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Is there a BR class for sub-12 fpe rifles, I didn't see one? If not, then I expect you will see very few rifles in this power class.
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That is a wonderful target, but it looks like a 248. I'm pretty sure targets #18 & #25 are 9's. But excellent shooting, very nice!
So only 1 person can offer testimony to the HFT500's ability. Where are all the guys in Europe who swear by them? All the people who say in a thread that their gun can shoot ragged one-hole groups at 25 meters? I was kind of afraid of this. It makes me think that AA gets its army of fans together whenever a new rifle comes out to proclaim how great it is to the world, simply for sales. Just like Daystate and FX do (or maybe it's just the promotors of the event) when they load up the line with their rifles at Extreme Benchrest by giving them away (and the jerseys) in order to improve their odds of winning, which in turn makes their brand look like a winner, all for sales. I went through this same crap back in the 70's racing motocross when Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki would give incredibly cheap deals on bikes to local riders just to get their bikes on the line. It was hard to know what an individual rider, with his own money and no support whatsoever, should buy.
Challenge still on. Please show how accurate your HFT500 is, if you can.
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The scoring plug showed that one of those targets was touching, but that was my interpretation. I could go either way. Yes, you won't hear much about this rifle from folks here in the U. S. because they are all wanting guns that shoot high power with slugs. I used to shoot 25M BR and it is so specialized that this rifle may not be considered much for this purpose especially for the LV class. The gun I used to use was a RAW TM1000 in 20 fpe for the HV class. I haven't competed in years because I've moved to an area where there isn't any of this type of competion going on. Sadly, I sold the TM and all the equipment. However, if someone was to challenge me up in this neck of the woods, that's the gun I would take out of my safe to use, because it is very accurate. Another would be my FWB 300SU, even though it only shoots 6.5 fpe. Power isn't everything.
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When I shot BR at Open Grove there were guys using these for Light Varmint who did very well, along with other brands. As with other classes you have to have a good barrel, find ammo that shoots well in your barrel, and learn how and how often to clean the barrel. Not to mention knowing how to shoot wind conditions, especially in LV.
re RAW, I had a BM500 HV class that was very good, again as long as I could find the right ammo - which became increasingly difficult over time. I concluded that JSB didn't care about BR competition, at least then.
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And it seems like they have gotten worse. I fell for the Exact Premium Diabolo's "Carefully Selected One by One", only 200 to a black plastic case with two levels of pellets carefully placed in styrofoam. Much like the expensive RWS R-10 wadcutters. But these pellets have been terrible in every gun I've tried.
Pellets, to me, are by far the weakest link in this whole game, and I can't believe that someone hasn't taken it upon themselves to try to manufacture the best pellet available. It's a wide-open door for an entrepreneur, because the competition isn't much. FWIW, the best wadcutters I ever found for my 10 meter pistols was Vogel, made by Scott Pilkington at Pilk Guns. But they sold their equipment to someone else.
This whole idea of finding the best pellet to match your barrel and then buy a truckload of that batch is ridiculous. What do you do when that batch is gone? Sell it, that's what, and that's why there are so many guns that pop up that used to shoot perfectly well as long as you had that batch. But how idiotic is it that you spend $2K or more on a gun that only shoots one batch well, and then because that batch runs out, a .03 cent item, you either end up having to search through a stockpile to find a new barrel, or sell the gun and start the hunt for the magic pellet all over again. Look at all the R&D that has been going on in the last 10 years or so in terms of barrel twist rates and configurations. It's wonderful that that is happening, but somebody please get to the root cause, the pellets. It's simply amazing that we are willing to put up with this crap.
Yep, I feel your pain. I sold my TM1000 and FWB 300SU when I had to quit shooting about 6 years ago because of a job situation. But now I'm back and that's why I'm looking for a new gun. I'm just not convinced it is going to be a HFT500. I'll probably go with another RAW. Thomas is just stupid expensive, especially because it is still going to come down to that lousy little pellet.
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If you are going to compete in BR, you had better weigh and sort your pellets. It makes a big difference in your scores.
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I disagree, and I did compete in BR many times with unsorted pellets (good lots though). The test you show looks convincing but it is very hard to conduct valid tests because of numerous hard to control variables, such as indoors (without any drafts), barrel condition / cleaning regime, how many shots per group, how to measure groups, how many shots per variable to find significant differences (weight bracket, etc).
I did such experiments years ago using pellets sorted not only by weight, but "air gauged" - which is supposed to precisely measure pellet diameter. These pellets were provided by a friend who is an experienced competitor who used an air gauge and routinely sorted with it and by weight. The sorted pellets were shot in controlled conditions on graph paper (for easier POI measurement), and like others I found that sorting did not improve accuracy or consistency. In fact the outliers (inconsistent: bigger or smaller than "ideal") shot better than the ones measured to be the most consistent. (This was posted on Benchrest Central forum ) I also used this setup to test pellet lots, as mentioned, and it did show differences in lot performance (mainly among "flyers", or outliers).
Where I competed many other shooters sorted pellets, but it didn't make a difference in their scores (though their thought that it did may have helped them psychologically). It is easy to be convinced by experimental results that are not valid because good experiments are very hard to design and execute correctly, and it is easy to fool yourself - especially if you want to believe something is true.
These tests along similar lines may be of interest:
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Hey Kim!
Scrench, go to the USARB page and open "Records" and "Scorelines" for years of comparable "real" USA benchrest scores and makes. https://www.usairriflebenchrest.com/ (Thanks to Steve Ware for keeping up the USARB scores)
Yes, Thomas' are not cheap. But then most benchresters have spent or will spend a lot trying to make theirs run as well. You all know what I mean and yeah, blah blah blah I'm a fan.
Edit: Looking over the N50 agg-line and archive I don't see too many Air Arms. I'm not sure there are any other 50 yard/M US based organizations tracking scores/makes.
www.national50.net www.national50.net
Scrench, go to the USARB page and open "Records" and "Scorelines" for years of comparable "real" USA benchrest scores and makes. https://www.usairriflebenchrest.com/ (Thanks to Steve Ware for keeping up the USARB scores)
Yes, Thomas' are not cheap. But then most benchresters have spent or will spend a lot trying to make theirs run as well. You all know what I mean and yeah, blah blah blah I'm a fan.
Edit: Looking over the N50 agg-line and archive I don't see too many Air Arms. I'm not sure there are any other 50 yard/M US based organizations tracking scores/makes.
General 5 — National 50
www.national50.net Archive — National 50
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Oh? Basic physics (F=ma) dictates that items of differing weight will require more or less force to accelerate it to a given velocity. And, pellets of differing diameters will have differing amounts of friction between them and the barrel, again influencing velocity. Why do you think pellets have higher velocity than slugs? As a coarse example, there's more bearing surface between the slug/barrel than the pellet/ barrel. So pellets with varying head diameters will have varying velocities. Pellets differing in weight by a few percent, will contribute to velocity differences that can/will cause the flight patch to vary. It only takes a few thousanths of an inch where the pellet hits to make a it shoot a 10 or a 9. Have you ever lost a match by one or two points, or one or two "x"s? Sometimes when I'm loading a pellet that seems to be harder to chamber, it will be a flyer. Now, I shoot those in the dirt. Here's photos of pellets that I've weighed from the same tin. You can't tell me that those in the extreme ends of the weight spectrum will shoot in the same hole. The point is that you have to eliminate as many variables as you can to shoot accurately-pellet consistency is one of them.
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Paul,
Although I do not sort, weigh or size my pellets for my Benchrest shooting purposes, your explanation and logic makes good sense to me also. I realize this debate of sorting vs not sorting has been well documented on the forum, but when you see a majority of the best competition Benchrest shooters at RMAC, EBR, NAC, etc. sort their pellets, there must be a reason why in my mind.
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Air gun pellets, and likely slugs also are going to vary in consistency not only the physical aspect but also the material aspect, just like .22 long rifle. Every so often you might find the Holy Grail for your particular unit. At least Pellets do not cost a dollar a shot, and a full sleeve of pellets does not take a loan from where ever to acquire same ( although the freight might, that's a joke son ). Best thing about ABR is the practice you get for the more expensive RFBR and CFBR. and you don't have to leave home, for a bunch of us,to practice ( and yes I did the sorting , weighting, head size , the list goes on ,not only for air but RF as well. ) In the end it is all about having some fun and air is a cheap way to do it, once you get past the upfront cost. Would I like to have one of the latest wizbang whatever's to play with , sure. Would it make a difference in my scores, BIG MAYBE. Practice is whats separates the men from the boys more than anything else. well so much for my soap box. Note I shot in competition ,many venues, for over 40 years, very good at some so so at others.
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