AAFTA GP course optimization

[scotton]

I tend to think the same as you. I have brought it up before that I think the Whittington Center in Raton, NM would be perfect for this. It has everything we could want And be on neutral ground.

I just wrote a long response to this, but then I realized that I don't really give a crap about GP points or National Championships anymore, But if you ever call Whittington, please record the conversation and play it back for me. I would love to hear what they think about us hosting a field target event.

 

[Garrettkq]

I just wrote a long response to this, but then I realized that I don't really give a crap about GP points or National Championships anymore, But if you ever call Whittington, please record the conversation and play it back for me. I would love to hear what they think about us hosting a field target event.

Actually, they are very supportive of airguns. I seem to remember a conversation about this before. It is a fantastic place. The problem is, the manpower to put it on. It is very difficult to get people to fly and drive across the country to volunteer to set up an event. This sounds fantastic on paper and in theory, however, the practical components and execution capability fall just short.
One of the fantastic consequences of the current system is that clubs across the country are able to showcase their home range, and it allows a variety of shooting conditions that make every year, and every place unique.

 

[Garrettkq]

I love the mathematic exercises in determining course points. We can scheme to max out points until our eyes flicker from calculations. Super cool, but the bottom line, is that most people are going to attend an event because it was fun, appropriately challenging, diverse, unique, and well-managed. Most any one of these fluctuate too far in any direction, and it becomes really easy to ruin the event for most. Well... maybe not fun. Never can have too much fun.

 

[Scotchmo]

…. In this instance, the shooters got a few more points for the Cajuns that reflected the more difficult course layout. …

Those nine shooters averaged 29% more GP pts at the Cajuns vs ROP. I’d call that substantial. It shows how much influence the match director can have if they choose to maximize GP pts.

I go to our local matches for fun. For the effort/time/cost needed to travel to GP matches, I’d also like the opportunity to collect the most GP points possible. You said you enjoyed them both, so no downside to optimizing for GP pts.

 

[Kdog]

So as a match Director I recently had my first GP this year and have to say it was very successful with 53 people pre registered for our event. My #1 goal is to have people come back to our club to shoot our GP and support our club. The last thing I want is to have participants not want to come back. The number one reason in my opinion for people not wanting to come back is if you set a course too hard.

Setting a course at a 36T which is at a EXPERT level is a recipe for disaster if you want people to come back to your GP. I have gone to GP a few years in a row where both courses are set at a 36T and although I shot well I must say it wasn't a fun experience. I also noticed attendance was significantly down from year one to two at that GP.

A very interesting fact about my two courses is that both were set at a 32 T at our GP but one course averaged 4 points harder for the majority of the shooters.

Moving forward I will continue to set my courses at what I believe is a challenging but fair course for most shooters. The creme of the crop always rises and the top shooters will always do well but I want the majority of the participants to have a good experience. Of course other things go into a great GP like decent food, a quality T shirt and a good raffle.

Setting a GP course at a 36T for a few shooters that care about GP points is not a good idea if you want people to go to your event. If AAFTA told me I had to set my GP at a 36T id definately have a problem with that.


Sincerely,
Sherwood Airgunners
Match Director
KeithWalters

 

[Motorhead]

So as a match Director I recently had my first GP this year and have to say it was very successful with 53 people pre registered for our event. My #1 goal is to have people come back to our club to shoot our GP and support our club. The last thing I want is to have participants not want to come back. The number one reason in my opinion for people not wanting to come back is if you set a course too hard.

Setting a course at a 36T which is at a EXPERT level is a recipe for disaster if you want people to come back to your GP. I have gone to GP a few years in a row where both courses are set at a 36T and although I shot well I must say it wasn't a fun experience. I also noticed attendance was significantly down from year one to two at that GP.

A very interesting fact about my two courses is that both were set at a 32 T at our GP but one course averaged 4 points harder for the majority of the shooters.

Moving forward I will continue to set my courses at what I believe is a challenging but fair course for most shooters. The creme of the crop always rises and the top shooters will always do well but I want the majority of the participants to have a good experience. Of course other things go into a great GP like decent food, a quality T shirt and a good raffle.

Setting a GP course at a 36T for a few shooters that care about GP points is not a good idea if you want people to go to your event. If AAFTA told me I had to set my GP at a 36T id definately have a problem with that.


Sincerely,
Sherwood Airgunners
Match Director
KeithWalters

Very similar ideology I apply at monthly club matches. Too difficult & many shooters struggle and doubt there ability perhaps not wishing to continue to play the game. To easy the better shooters are not challenged enough to make going to these fun matches worth their time.

So we set a something for everyone type course where there are Pie plate targets and enough higher troyer targets to challenge even the most experienced.

As such our club continues to grow and we draw the best of the west coast shooters regularly to our monthly shoots ... must be doing something right.

 

[Scotchmo]

…
Setting a GP course at a 36T for a few shooters that care about GP points is not a good idea if you want people to go to your event….

This years Cajuns was 36T and the Sonoran GP was 41T. They both had good attendance. Sonoran GP had the best GP pts earning. The wind was not bad, but it was probably high enough so that the match director was justified in checking some of those boxes to boost the Troyer average (and boost the GP scores). Or maybe they checked some of the light/dark boxes too.

A 30T average course could have lots of “expert” targets, while a carefully set 36T average course could have none. Averages don’t tell us the details of the extremes. It’s those outliers that make a course truly difficult.

 

[Scotchmo]

…bottom line, is that most people are going to attend an event because it was fun, appropriately challenging, diverse, unique, and well-managed….

As the Sonoran GP had most all that, plus the highest GP points potential to date, I commend you.

 

[Kdog]

So I never ad wind or lighting conditions to my Troyer ratings which is a VERY subjective area when figuring out a Troyer scale. This is where all these Troyer ratings get scewed. Here in Ohio we always shoot in woods courses which are much darker than shooting in a field and we don't even think about adding a lighting factor, same with wind. So if you add those factors in and the Troyer factor is something ridiculous isn't that an illegal course?

Personal experience we typically set a course between a 30-34 T and let the chips fall as they may and don't worry about additional subjective conditions which can vary from shot to shot.

 

[Airgunoregon]

So as a match Director I recently had my first GP this year and have to say it was very successful with 53 people pre registered for our event. My #1 goal is to have people come back to our club to shoot our GP and support our club. The last thing I want is to have participants not want to come back. The number one reason in my opinion for people not wanting to come back is if you set a course too hard.

Setting a course at a 36T which is at a EXPERT level is a recipe for disaster if you want people to come back to your GP. I have gone to GP a few years in a row where both courses are set at a 36T and although I shot well I must say it wasn't a fun experience. I also noticed attendance was significantly down from year one to two at that GP.

A very interesting fact about my two courses is that both were set at a 32 T at our GP but one course averaged 4 points harder for the majority of the shooters.

Moving forward I will continue to set my courses at what I believe is a challenging but fair course for most shooters. The creme of the crop always rises and the top shooters will always do well but I want the majority of the participants to have a good experience. Of course other things go into a great GP like decent food, a quality T shirt and a good raffle.

Setting a GP course at a 36T for a few shooters that care about GP points is not a good idea if you want people to go to your event. If AAFTA told me I had to set my GP at a 36T id definately have a problem with that.


Sincerely,
Sherwood Airgunners
Match Director
KeithWalters

Hi Keith,

I agree with most of what you are saying, but it all depends on the terrain and wind conditions at the facility hosting the event.

In Nevada, we shoot in a very steep and rocky canyon. At least half of the shots are 15 to 30 degree uphill. The wind flows down the canyon in the morning and is forced up the canyon in the late morning/afternoon. During the shift it's crazy hard to figure it out. As the wind picks up during the day, the velocity causes updrafts as it's forced through the canyon walls. We have seen some years when the wind gets up to 40mph. I would guess over the years, it's averaged 15 mph in the afternoons.

You have to hold off and under for both the incline and the uplift, but how much??? It's the most difficult place to shoot I've ever attended.

A 30T course can be harder at that location than a 40T course on flat ground with the same wind speed.

Sometimes the highest score is only in the 70% on a 32T course.

So, the new system does try to take this into account, but I'd like to see Standard Deviation, wind velocity, and steepness of angles be factored in as well.

 

[Scotchmo]

So I never ad wind or lighting conditions to my Troyer ratings which is a VERY subjective area when figuring out a Troyer scale. This is where all these Troyer ratings get scewed. Here in Ohio we always shoot in woods courses which are much darker than shooting in a field and we don't even think about adding a lighting factor, same with wind. So if you add those factors in and the Troyer factor is something ridiculous isn't that an illegal course?
…

It’s not illegal to add environmental factors to an otherwise legal course. They are not counted for legality, but they give additional GP points. If those conditions exist as you say, you should add them in. It cost you nothing and it benefits those contending in the GP.

Maybe you can amend your match submission.

 

[BrazosbyNemo]

This thread has kind of got off target but has turned interesting. People like to knock targets down. That’s fun. You make it too tough and people don’t have fun. They don’t have fun they don’t come back. It makes it really bad for the piston rifle guys or new shooters. I was an MD for 7 years. I tried to make my match doable. Sometimes it was a little too easy and sometimes a little too hard. Planning the match on the excel spread sheet a lot of times didn’t work out as planned. Some things are out of your control, like wind. Strangely when I set out to make an easy, fun match I typically failed. As a MD you get to know your shooters, their equipment, and their skill level. You need to play to your audience and do what you can to put smiles on faces so they come back next month. When you leave a match feeling good about yourself you want more.

 

[cavedweller]

I love the mathematic exercises in determining course points. We can scheme to max out points until our eyes flicker from calculations. Super cool, but the bottom line, is that most people are going to attend an event because it was fun, appropriately challenging, diverse, unique, and well-managed. Most any one of these fluctuate too far in any direction, and it becomes really easy to ruin the event for most. Well... maybe not fun. Never can have too much fun.

Tru Dat!!!!

 

[cavedweller]

So as a match Director I recently had my first GP this year and have to say it was very successful with 53 people pre registered for our event. My #1 goal is to have people come back to our club to shoot our GP and support our club. The last thing I want is to have participants not want to come back. The number one reason in my opinion for people not wanting to come back is if you set a course too hard.

Setting a course at a 36T which is at a EXPERT level is a recipe for disaster if you want people to come back to your GP. I have gone to GP a few years in a row where both courses are set at a 36T and although I shot well I must say it wasn't a fun experience. I also noticed attendance was significantly down from year one to two at that GP.

A very interesting fact about my two courses is that both were set at a 32 T at our GP but one course averaged 4 points harder for the majority of the shooters.

Moving forward I will continue to set my courses at what I believe is a challenging but fair course for most shooters. The creme of the crop always rises and the top shooters will always do well but I want the majority of the participants to have a good experience. Of course other things go into a great GP like decent food, a quality T shirt and a good raffle.

Setting a GP course at a 36T for a few shooters that care about GP points is not a good idea if you want people to go to your event. If AAFTA told me I had to set my GP at a 36T id definately have a problem with that.


Sincerely,
Sherwood Airgunners
Match Director
KeithWalters

I knew you were smart but damn… that’s just pure wisdom!

 

[rich177]

Kdog,
Thank you for your post. I have been preaching "easy FT courses" for 35 years. the tendency has always been to make the courses harder and harder(to satisfy the top tier shooters). NEWS FLASH!!! Most of us are not top tier but we do love to do well and knock down targets. I/we ran easy courses(usually around 28 Troyer) and only had courses cleaned twice in all that time . So it is possible to keep it not so difficult but still be fun and challenging.
I really don't push to go to GPs because they are far away, difficult to shoot, and costly. Some club matches are like that too. One is coming up that is so difficult that I pretty much write off a third of the targets before I even shoot. That is jus not fun for me.
Rick B

 

[Kdog]

I really don't agree on putting subjective hardness factors into a Troyer scale which we all know can change from shot to shot or from the time the match starts until the end. I see where some match directors can add this difficulty factor into their Troyer scale and just make it look on paper that it was

Kdog,
Thank you for your post. I have been preaching "easy FT courses" for 35 years. the tendency has always been to make the courses harder and harder(to satisfy the top tier shooters). NEWS FLASH!!! Most of us are not top tier but we do love to do well and knock down targets. I/we ran easy courses(usually around 28 Troyer) and only had courses cleaned twice in all that time . So it is possible to keep it not so difficult but still be fun and challenging.
I really don't push to go to GPs because they are far away, difficult to shoot, and costly. Some club matches are like that too. One is coming up that is so difficult that I pretty much write off a third of the targets before I even shoot. That is jus not fun for me.
Rick B

Rick as a Match Director I take into account how hard a course is. Here in Ohio our sport is seasonal from spring to fall. In the spring the courses typically start out with easier Troyer ratings around 28-30 and as the season progresses the courses tend to get harder. Usually in the 30-32 range for most of the season. If a GP is coming up I may make a course a little harder just to get ready for it. I really don't want to make courses so hard that people don't want to come back to my club. I want to promote the sport not have people not want to do it again!

I have gone as far as leveling out areas for the shooting box to make it more safe and comfortable for people shooting on our Hollow course which is some Hilly terrain. I also go as far as announce what course we are shooting because some people have a hard time on some of the terrain we shoot.

But to make a course so hard or appear hard on paper so a number of people get better GP points is not a game I'm going to play at my club. That definately is not what's good for the sport.

Some older shooters have made it quite a bit easier knocking down ALOT of targets by shooting this Unlimited class. At one match there was 3 guys shooting unlimited that shot over 58/60. In my opinion when that happens it has gotten too easy. These same shooters are average shooters when shooting Hunter class.

 

[Scotchmo]

So many focus too much on the Troyer “average” as the measure of true difficulty. It’s not. It’s possible to set a 36T course that scores higher than a 28T course for most. In the past, GP points didn’t depend on the Troyer average, so I typically set courses in the 28T to 32T range, usually with a healthy SD. Here is the Blue course spreadsheet for the 2021 AAFTA Nationals that was held at our range:

With a base Troyer average of 31T, it was still plenty difficult. The actual difficulty was higher than most any other AAFTA National match. Top score was 99/120.

If I were still running GP matches, I’d be setting courses more like the Cajun and Sonoran GPs from this year. I’d use a 36T with a lower SD. The average shooter wouldn’t even notice the difference, but it would result in a more favorable GP specific course that takes into account the new GP scoring method.

 

[Motorhead]

Indeed to shoot the Morro Bay course one needs to be Very Wind Savvy and in such environments scoring absolutely needs to take into account this added difficulty. Those without said wind savvy ability are indeed at a handicap when accustomed to shooting within less open spaces.

 

[Scotchmo]

Indeed to shoot the Morro Bay course one needs to be Very Wind Savvy and in such environments scoring absolutely needs to take into account this added difficulty. Those without said wind savvy ability are indeed at a handicap when accustomed to shooting within less open spaces.

Yes, wind was usually a factor at our range. Even more so on that day (for a couple of reasons).

Outside of that, before wind factors, that Blue course was a 31T average with five “expert” targets. It’s possible to set a 36T course with no “expert” targets. Which course will end up being the more difficult? The 31T or the 36T?

 

[Airgunoregon]

Local "practice type matches" are treated different by most match directors... As a MD that hosts an occasional Nationals and a GP match each year, I feel a need to set a course that will separate the top shooters... Isn't that the goal at such matches?

So, accordingly, they are around 33-35T if I know the wind will be blowing and a little higher if it's not blowing, and we do have some downhill shots at our GP location, so with factors that usually gets to about 37 to 38T and I'll have at least a 5-6 SD so there are a few easier and a few really hard targets to do that separating.. and it usually works well with the high score around 90%. Yes, Most spring gun shooters are lucky to get 70% while one in particular, Cameron will shoot with the top PCP scores, so really Some Piston shooters need that kind of challenge as well... right?

Yes, folks that are new will most likely shoot in the 30-50%, but hopefully they were squaded with a top shooter who encourages them that they will learn, and suggests ways they might improve their game.