Accuracy of regular size rifle vs. bullpup
- Thread starter Emu
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I had a TRG 42 in 300 wm about 17 years ago. I had to let it go. Boy do I miss that rifle. Incredibly smooth action.
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They had a weird twist on the 300 though, at that time it was 1:11 so 180gr was pushing it.
One of these days I plan to get another.
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This thread bit me in the butt....
I was feeling superior to those of us whom I consider caught in their habits, bound by their traditions, and preconditioned to what they are used to.
Here my post:
www.airgunnation.com
I stand by what I said there:
⭓ that long guns are not inherently more precise (geometry, design) —
⭓ but that long guns for most shooters are more precise than bullpups —
BECAUSE most shooters are more accustomed to long guns (habit, comfort, muscle memory!).
And I would like to add this question:
What percentage of shooters start shooting bullpups without having significant previous experience with long rifles?
➠ I bet, the ratio is 1 to 10.000.
No wonder bullpups have a reputation for not being as precise as long guns...!
So, after feeling slightly superior writing that post there — today my own traditions, customs, and misconceptions hit me over the head. 
I had always heard/read that mounting the scope close to the barrel is better.
➊ Because, height increases cant errors — which have been discussed extensively elsewhere — which has convinced me that this is incorrect.
➋ However, MY reason for a low mounted scope was that the point blank range (PBR) would be so much closer to the gun — something that was really important to me for close range pesting shots.
I always have mounted scopes so low the objective bell seemed to be kissing the barrel shroud.... ➠ My habit, my custom, my belief.
Well, until I finally just sat down in a chair and opened ChairGun Pro and did a few simple ballistic calculations.
Summary:¹ A scope height difference of 1/2" (1.3cm) only makes 3y (2.5m) difference. THAT is not a lot of difference.
And to gain those 3y, I have to sacrifice a natural and comfortable head position.
For most scenarios, I would say this isn't worth it.
Why did I insist on extremely low mounted scopes, that required coiled necks, twisted heads, and eye acrobatics?!?
Because of my tradition, my custom, my habit, my belief of ALWAYS mounting scopes as low as the lowest mounts on the market would allow me....
In my case, erroneous habits and incorrect beliefs were easy to debunk — with a few simple ballistic calculations.
However, it's not always that easy.
And we have our own human nature against us: We are all creatures of habit — much more than we think.
And just as bad habits are hard to break — even good habits are hard to change when the situation calls for a better habit. Shooting a style of rifle is no exception
I still have lots to learn.....
Matthias
¹ I'll make a thread about it.
I was feeling superior to those of us whom I consider caught in their habits, bound by their traditions, and preconditioned to what they are used to.
Here my post:
Accuracy of regular size rifle vs. bullpup
For me the long size matters only with open sights, you CANT aim with the rear sight near your nose ! So we have optics Lets measure then, the distance from the back sand bag or shoulder to the front sandbag, bipod or hand, its about the same at both types So the benefits of BP are 1. keep...
www.airgunnation.com I stand by what I said there:
⭓ that long guns are not inherently more precise (geometry, design) —
⭓ but that long guns for most shooters are more precise than bullpups —
BECAUSE most shooters are more accustomed to long guns (habit, comfort, muscle memory!).
And I would like to add this question:
What percentage of shooters start shooting bullpups without having significant previous experience with long rifles?
➠ I bet, the ratio is 1 to 10.000.
No wonder bullpups have a reputation for not being as precise as long guns...!
So, after feeling slightly superior writing that post there — today my own traditions, customs, and misconceptions hit me over the head. I had always heard/read that mounting the scope close to the barrel is better.
➊ Because, height increases cant errors — which have been discussed extensively elsewhere — which has convinced me that this is incorrect.
➋ However, MY reason for a low mounted scope was that the point blank range (PBR) would be so much closer to the gun — something that was really important to me for close range pesting shots.
I always have mounted scopes so low the objective bell seemed to be kissing the barrel shroud.... ➠ My habit, my custom, my belief.
Well, until I finally just sat down in a chair and opened ChairGun Pro and did a few simple ballistic calculations.
Summary:¹ A scope height difference of 1/2" (1.3cm) only makes 3y (2.5m) difference. THAT is not a lot of difference.
And to gain those 3y, I have to sacrifice a natural and comfortable head position.
For most scenarios, I would say this isn't worth it.
Why did I insist on extremely low mounted scopes, that required coiled necks, twisted heads, and eye acrobatics?!?Because of my tradition, my custom, my habit, my belief of ALWAYS mounting scopes as low as the lowest mounts on the market would allow me....
In my case, erroneous habits and incorrect beliefs were easy to debunk — with a few simple ballistic calculations.However, it's not always that easy.
And we have our own human nature against us: We are all creatures of habit — much more than we think.
And just as bad habits are hard to break — even good habits are hard to change when the situation calls for a better habit. Shooting a style of rifle is no exception
I still have lots to learn.....
Matthias
¹ I'll make a thread about it.
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Scope height...
It's a myth that a high mounted scope will induce errors..
This is my mates 2 mile rig. . 416 Barret Custom.
He has no issues with the March mounted on the Ivey up High.
It's a myth that a high mounted scope will induce errors..
This is my mates 2 mile rig. . 416 Barret Custom.
He has no issues with the March mounted on the Ivey up High.
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Not going to argue with this either when your gun is almost basically mounted to a cart. Sneaking around in the woods, no bipod to control canting, have to be a little more mindful of a towering scope.
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Lock the rifle in a vise, take repeated shots and look at your group size. I don't think it'll matter if you use a bullpup or a traditional rifle format. They'll all do equally well if they're properly regulated, their crowns are even, they don't feed in a way that damages your pellets, etc. At least, that's what physics says.
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I had only shot long rifles for over 40 years before getting my first bullpup. Now I hardly shoot my long rifles. There is nothing wrong with long rifles, I just like bullpups.
My two regular air rifles (one is actually a Prod carbine) have scopes about 1.5 inches over the bore. My 4 bullpups have their scopes over 2.5 inches over the bore. That extra height has caused a few misses pesting when I failed to account for it. Sometimes I use the Prod just because of this difference. I also think the extra height makes controlling cant more important. But I don't see either type of rifle as more inherently accurate than the other. There are differences but both can work great.
My two regular air rifles (one is actually a Prod carbine) have scopes about 1.5 inches over the bore. My 4 bullpups have their scopes over 2.5 inches over the bore. That extra height has caused a few misses pesting when I failed to account for it. Sometimes I use the Prod just because of this difference. I also think the extra height makes controlling cant more important. But I don't see either type of rifle as more inherently accurate than the other. There are differences but both can work great.
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I think all the time I’ve spent with bullpups and high scopes has made me a better shooter in hunting situations. There’s a difference between playing sniper and having the time to get the gun locked in absolutely perfect versus resting on trees, knees and fence posts. I am now very conscious of how level my guns are before I squeeze on distant targets no matter what kind of gun I’m using.
As far as the statement I made four years ago. Even though this is not a powder burner forum and I don’t know why guys lately are posting powder burner stuff, I personally would be more comfortable going long with the mates .416 than a Desert Tech Pup. But it definitely can be done with either if the quality of the build and its components are there. Oh, and the shooter.
All my long range PCP‘s are pups. Do I wish I could have a 36” traditional rifle long rang PCP? Yes. But we are not there yet. Maybe in four years someone can dig this up and quote me and tell me how wrong I am. Hopefully.
As far as the statement I made four years ago. Even though this is not a powder burner forum and I don’t know why guys lately are posting powder burner stuff, I personally would be more comfortable going long with the mates .416 than a Desert Tech Pup. But it definitely can be done with either if the quality of the build and its components are there. Oh, and the shooter.
All my long range PCP‘s are pups. Do I wish I could have a 36” traditional rifle long rang PCP? Yes. But we are not there yet. Maybe in four years someone can dig this up and quote me and tell me how wrong I am. Hopefully.
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I guess I will never know which one is more accurate as I don't care for bullpups. I'm sticking to traditional.
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Ummm....desert tech has picked up a few military and police contracts with their bullpup sniper rifles...been around for years.
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The HTI bullpup
just WOW....
I have made some deliberate vocational choices that I knew would never allow me to buy toys in that price range.
But I am happy, extremely happy with the cool airgun bullpups I DO get to buy.
And if — the jury is still out on that, the theologians can't disprove me — if there will be guns in heaven, I am pretty sure I will be shooting an HTI bullpup or similar, doing long range cloud-to-cloud shooting with my believing gun budddies.
And we won't be ringing cheap steel — we'll be ringing brass bells that produce an ethereal sound — simply glorious.
Matthias
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Yes I'm on a budget as well, was thinking about getting the BRK Ghost (liked the ghost over the FX guns, from what I've read just as accurate but less parts) but decided on the Vulcan 3...super accurate and about $800 lessThe HTI bullpup
just WOW....
I have made some deliberate vocational choices that I knew would never allow me to buy toys in that price range.
But I am happy, extremely happy with the cool airgun bullpups I DO get to buy.
And if — the jury is still out on that, the theologians can't disprove me — if there will be guns in heaven, I am pretty sure I will be shooting an HTI bullpup or similar, doing long range cloud-to-cloud shooting with my believing gun budddies.
And we won't be ringing cheap steel — we'll be ringing brass bells that produce an ethereal sound — simply glorious.
Matthias
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