Airforce Air Force Condor review, a case report in how "utilitarian" can be a positive.

[Franklink]

Things are coming together!!!

On the right is a 10 shot group of NSA .20/18.9s @ 100 yards.
0.145 transfer port
power wheel = horizontal 1 and vertical 1
PSI 2050-1800 = 945-965fps (38fpe)

On the left is a 20 shot group of JSB .20/15.89 @ 100 yards
0.123 transfer port
power wheel = horizontal 1 and vertical 1
PSI 2050-1700 = 935-965fps (32fpe)

Wind is blowing, switching left to right. The high shot in the 20 of the 15.89s was me, FPS was coming down near the end of the useable pressure so I held slightly high to account for it but didn't need to cuz it hit right where I aimed.

The orange stickers are exactly MOA sized, I held an MOA coin on there and they're the same diameter.

And I hushed it down by going to the serious moderator. Gun is very, very, very long now. When walking back to get the targets I was chuckling to myself that it's a Made in America Panthera now, lol.
That longer moderator does the trick though, nice and quiet.

Either of these "tunes" are up to my standards. I wouldn't hesitate to use them for prairie dogs and other long range vermin that needs leaded.

Using the lowest setting on the power wheel is shifting my useable pressure window WAY down. If I fill to even halfway between 2000 and 2200 I'll have slow first shots. Just slightly past the 2000 mark on the gauge is money. I'm loving it, SO easy on the air consumption.

This is probably the last installment for who knows how long. I've got to brush hog a pasture for the rest of today, and then start back a stretch of long days at work tomorrow.

Fun gun!

 

[Berserkeley Mike]

Things are coming together!!!

On the right is a 10 shot group of NSA .20/18.9s @ 100 yards.
0.145 transfer port
power wheel = horizontal 1 and vertical 1
PSI 2050-1800 = 945-965fps (38fpe)

On the left is a 20 shot group of JSB .20/15.89 @ 100 yards
0.123 transfer port
power wheel = horizontal 1 and vertical 1
PSI 2050-1700 = 935-965fps (32fpe)

Wind is blowing, switching left to right. The high shot in the 20 of the 15.89s was me, FPS was coming down near the end of the useable pressure so I held slightly high to account for it but didn't need to cuz it hit right where I aimed.

The orange stickers are exactly MOA sized, I held an MOA coin on there and they're the same diameter.
View attachment 482562


And I hushed it down by going to the serious moderator. Gun is very, very, very long now. When walking back to get the targets I was chuckling to myself that it's a Made in America Panthera now, lol.
That longer moderator does the trick though, nice and quiet.

View attachment 482563

Either of these "tunes" are up to my standards. I wouldn't hesitate to use them for prairie dogs and other long range vermin that needs leaded.

Using the lowest setting on the power wheel is shifting my useable pressure window WAY down. If I fill to even halfway between 2000 and 2200 I'll have slow first shots. Just slightly past the 2000 mark on the gauge is money. I'm loving it, SO easy on the air consumption.

This is probably the last installment for who knows how long. I've got to brush hog a pasture for the rest of today, and then start back a stretch of long days at work tomorrow.

Fun gun!

Great tuning notes!

I put one of those 14" condor moderators from talontunes on mine. I feel like an extra for Star Wars lugging it around.

The pellet strikes on your target, the ones on the right, NSA .20/18.9 gr, make round holes. The ones on the left, JSB .20/15.89 gr. have some paper tears to the right of many holes. Does that mean something?

 

[Franklink]

Great tuning notes!

I put one of those 14" condor moderators from talontunes on mine. I fell like an extra for Star Wars lugging it around.

The pellet strikes on your target, the ones on the right, NSA .20/18.9 gr, make round holes. The ones on the left, JSB .20/15.89 gr. have some paper tears to the right of many holes. Does that mean something?

Nah I think it's just the difference between slug and pellet holes. The pellets always kinda rip their way through and slugs make clean holes, almost like a wad cutter.

 

[Franklink]

Small update.....called AF this morning with the goal of seeing if the new trigger guard can fit my Condor. I haven't seen the frame flex so I'm mostly interested in this for getting a different grip on the gun, and the photos on AF website look like that's a possibility with the newer trigger guard. Anyway, very helpful and polite customer service rep called me back about ten min later and said that the new trigger guard is not compatible with the older Condors.
Slight bummer, but also gonna save me some money, lol.

It doesn't appear that Talon Tunes runs batches of the WokGuards anymore or that would be an option too....

 

[Berserkeley Mike]

Small update.....called AF this morning with the goal of seeing if the new trigger guard can fit my Condor. I haven't seen the frame flex so I'm mostly interested in this for getting a different grip on the gun, and the photos on AF website look like that's a possibility with the newer trigger guard. Anyway, very helpful and polite customer service rep called me back about ten min later and said that the new trigger guard is not compatible with the older Condors.
Slight bummer, but also gonna save me some money, lol.

It doesn't appear that Talon Tunes runs batches of the WokGuards anymore or that would be an option too....

Mercado is selling some wood grips in the Classified:

Grips - Airforce wood grips

WTS.. airforce gen one wood grip.. will fit gen 2 with some light cuting n sending.. being wood should help with the armonics of the gun .. $85 shipped PayPal ff or add the fees.. grip is as thick as a ergo grip really comfortable..

www.airgunnation.com

on their own I'm not a fan of the color, but on the frame

PCP Rifle - WTS condor frame

WTS Airforce condor frame with a wood stock .. it included a 110grams hammer it has a really comfortable grip .. $160 shipped PayPal FF or ad the fees..

www.airgunnation.com

I can see it working, especially a red frame.

 

[jmohme]

Small update.....called AF this morning with the goal of seeing if the new trigger guard can fit my Condor. I haven't seen the frame flex so I'm mostly interested in this for getting a different grip on the gun, and the photos on AF website look like that's a possibility with the newer trigger guard. Anyway, very helpful and polite customer service rep called me back about ten min later and said that the new trigger guard is not compatible with the older Condors.
Slight bummer, but also gonna save me some money, lol.

It doesn't appear that Talon Tunes runs batches of the WokGuards anymore or that would be an option too....

Have you talked to Tony at Talon Tunes. The WokGuard is still on his web site, it just shows out of stock.

 

[jmohme]

Have you talked to Tony at Talon Tunes. The WokGuard is still on his web site, it just shows out of stock.

 

[Franklink]

Have you talked to Tony at Talon Tunes. The WokGuard is still on his web site, it just shows out of stock.

Yes sir, a little bit ago I reached out to Tony and he responded that he'll have some of the WokGard2 in stock in a couple weeks.

 

[Franklink]

Shot the Condor a bit this morning, all with the .20/18.9gr NSA at about 950fps.

Still using the 0.145 transfer port, filling to 2050 and shooting down to 1800. Gets about 30 shots per fill with a 35fps spread. 25 shots per fill with a 25fps spread. If a guy wanted to regulate this one, either externally or on-board, 1900psi would be the sweet spot for what I'm doing with the gun so far.

Had to rezero the scope first since I swapped out the pic rail for the longer one. 30 yards first. Took 4-5 shots to get to the middle of the bull, and another two shots nearly touching so set the turrets for there and moved out to 100yards.

Shot quite a bit and the wind was blowing of course. When the wind would cooperate this is pretty representative of what I saw this morning. This is 20 shots on the same fill, same point of aim for all 20 shots. The sticker is one moa. A quite respectable 100 yard, 20 shot group for a $400 gun.

Our of curiosity I repeated the experiment with the Ghost .20 and got this. Same concept, 20 consecutive shots with the same point of aim.

The horizontal is about the same, so wind conditions worth 2.1" of drift with these 0.09bc slugs. Vertical is a bit tighter with the Ghost, as it should be, with the tighter ES.

I also shot an EBR card @ 100 yards with the Condor and it scored a 208.

All in all I was pleasantly surprised. The .20 Condor will group em much better than I would have guessed possible from a budget offering this low down the spectrum. The 20 shot group from the Ghost is better, but it's not 5 times better (rough difference in the price). Although there is more to a gun than accuracy (ergos, shot count, ease of adjustability, etc)..... it's got to be accurate for the rest to even be considered.

I'm certainly not disappointed with the accuracy I'm seeing from the Condor.

 

[jmohme]

Your groups might get better after your get you WokGuard to stiffen things a a bit. I know my TalonP did when I got my MadDog.

 

[Dairyboy]

I enjoyed seeing this. This is one line of airguns I've never tried even though have always been curious to try. I think they'd make great slug guns due to power. Even though I would love a slug gun, I've yet to have any real need for one anymore since 4 winters ago all our ground squirrels were wiped out in a very late winter. Where I would see 100s I now have seen maybe a dozen the last 3 years combined. Slugs around the dairy doesn't seem safe to me. So then it's would I want to go back to single shot only for pellets? Not really lol. So I've never got one. But having someone whose had many high end airguns through his hands get one and test it out is fun to see.

 

[Franklink]

And did the same thing with JSB .20/15.89s a bit ago. Same thing = 20 consecutive shots at 100 yards without trying to hold for any wind, just holding dead center on the 1 MOA orange sticker.

All I did was swap out the .145 transfer port for the .123. Starting fill pressure = 2000, ending fill pressure = 1900. Left the hammer tension the same as earlier, 1-1. This was 20 shots and was still @ 1900psi when done. I'd guess something closer to 40-45 shots per fill here, as 28-30 shots with the slugs and the bigger transfer port was getting me down to 1800psi. Fps with all that was 930-950 with a prior Chrono sessions so assuming it's that again today.

Gun is EXTREMELY quiet with the .20/15.89s and the 0.123 transfer port. And very pleasant to shoot.

Okay, here's the accuracy.

Wind gust took one far right, my little ribbon/wind flag went horizontal right then.

That is pretty dang good for 20 consecutive shots @ 100 yards in 10-15mph winds from a $400 gun and pellets @ only 31fpe.

Other than some polishing, this gun is stock(ish) The only aftermarket anything is scope and scope mounts. As for modifications...I fixed the trigger by deleting the auto reset trigger. I reworked the barrel but it is the factory barrel. I say "reworked" because 280 grit lapping compound can remove some metal. I also moved the hammer weight to in front of the hammer spring so that it's preload and not preload+hammer weight. And of course swapping the AirForce Ring Loc transfer ports around.

Not too shabby! Minus the wind gust, that's 19 shots that are all all minute of starling, and Euro dove/Pdog kill zone.

 

[Franklink]

I enjoyed seeing this. This is one line of airguns I've never tried even though have always been curious to try. I think they'd make great slug guns due to power. Even though I would love a slug gun, I've yet to have any real need for one anymore since 4 winters ago all our ground squirrels were wiped out in a very late winter. Where I would see 100s I now have seen maybe a dozen the last 3 years combined. Slugs around the dairy doesn't seem safe to me. So then it's would I want to go back to single shot only for pellets? Not really lol. So I've never got one. But having someone whose had many high end airguns through his hands get one and test it out is fun to see.

It's been quite fun. Not having a set goal in mind, just tinkering and having fun has been really enjoyable.

Seems a bit better with the .20 pellets than the slugs, although the wind today wasn't helping to make the gun look good. I'm just impressed that it's holding zero and putting pellets in the same place, or at least the same place enough to be useful. So far I wouldn't hesitate to use this Condor for any of the pesting that I do. The most detrimental feature I've found, for how I like to enjoy airguns, is how dang long it is. As I commented in the last post, it's very pleasant to shoot with the pellets and the smaller transfer port. Very quiet.

 

[Franklink]

Made up a couple .20/25.4s just now. Hope to find some time this afternoon to try em out. With the Condor and larger transfer ports, I imagine they'll go as fast as I dare.

 

[Franklink]

Made and tried some of the .20/25.4s (resized .22 Monster RD). The Condor attained 52.57fpe with a .20, but accuracy was abysmal.

This is the .20/25.4 testing…..

Started with the 0.166 transfer port and 4-4 on the wheel and 2100psi. Shots were 964.3, 952, 948, 935, etc. Rapidly descending shots like this are a dead indicator for too much hammer spring for the tp. So backed it down to 1-1 and refilled to 2100 psi, shots were 951.2, error, 934.6, 927.3, 924.

Swapped to the 0.145 transfer port and 3-3 on the wheel, filled to 2050 and got: 924.3, 917.2, 908, 903.8, 904, 897.5, 893.3, etc. This was probably the best “tune.” And where I saw a bit of accuracy.

Still with the 0.145 and now at 1900, cranked up the wheel to 8-8 and saw 894.2, 887.7, so the power limiting factor here was the 0.145, as more hammer spring wasn’t giving me faster fps.

Decided to see what I could max it out as and went to the 0.232 transfer port, 1-1 on the hammer spring, and filled to 1950fps. First AND ONLY shot was 955.6, and the gun did a partial valve dump. Pressure from that one shot went from 1950 to 1100fps. It was violent. It took me a couple seconds to realize I still have a face. I will not be revisiting that 0.232 tp with the .20, NO. NO. NO.

Was shooting at paper at 100 yards and some of them would go where they should, but some of them wouldn’t even hit my 8x11 sheet of paper. I could see where they were hitting though (dust flying) and it sometimes was FEET away. This might be a situation where the .20/25.4s are simply too long to be reliably stabilized by the twist rate of the barrel. I measured each and every .20/25.4 and they were all within a grain or two, all measured 0.201 on the head, and 0.207 on the skirt and were the same enough length to not be a problem there. From the perspective of measurable attributes, they were as consistent as anything commercially manufactured. But accuracy was a no-go.

 

[Franklink]

So after that failed attempt I went back to the 0.123 transfer port, and 1-1 on the wheel and filled it up to 2100psi, with the goal of shooting A BUNCH of shots over the chrono for a full shot string. Using the JSB .20/15.89 here.

Got it all charted on a spread sheet and this is what we've got.....

(Pressures are somewhat approximate b/c of the 200psi graduations on the manometer. 100 increments are quite doable, half of the 200, but more accurate than that is somewhat nebulous).

All three graphs come from the same 105 shot string, the difference between the three is that I graphed out progressively smaller segments of the shot string.

I'm not saying the Condor has a shot count of 105. This was just to determine ideal start and end pressures for a fill, to produce consistent fps.

There's a bit of fps inconsistency on the top half, likely a artifact of the partial valve lock from being overfilled for that particular hammer spring/transfer port/projectile. Much greater consistency on the bottom half, and even beyond, lower than the ideal fill pressure. FPS is very reliably dropping just a couple fps for every shot, from the peak produced by about 1700psi, all the way down to where I stopped at 1000fps.

But overall, it's behaving exactly like we expect to see from a properly set up unregulated airgun. FPS rises as the ideal fill pressure is met, somewhat plateaus during that ideal pressure window, and then starts to come back down as the pressure in the bottle diminishes. The key to reliable accuracy from an unregulated gun is filling to the correct starting pressure, and to stop shooting at the correct ending pressure. "Correct" is all dependent upon how much consistency we're after.

I think I've decided to fill to 1900 (after the cool down it should get me around 1850 as a starting pressure). and refill at 1400 if just shooting for fun, or even for hunting. If I'm really serious about consistency, refilling at 1500psi would keep me within about 30fps for the entire shot string, otherwise 50fps is plenty consistent for what I plan for the gun. And 50 shots per fill is pretty sweet, especially considering how low of a pressure we're talking. Get lots more use out of my air supply.

As for accuracy. All 105 shots were taken at paper at 100 yards. It was fun to pick out a previous pellet hole and see how close I could get. Lots of times I put it on top of the previous hole, and most of the time could put it within an inch or so of the desired impact point. So, we're talking prairie dog head sized accuracy at 100 yards, on tap and ready to go.

For now I think I'm settled on the .20/15.89 averaging about 30fpe. Really enjoyable to shoot with these settings. Very quiet and very pleasant.

As for the scope I'm not quite decided there. I've got a gunless PARD right now, that is night vision and recording. That PARD maxes out at 11.2x and I haven't used it much becuase of that. I personally prefer more magnification....but I'm considering putting the PARD on the Condor. It'd make for a convenient way to get some pdog hunting footage....although with the distance I'm often killing them, I'm not sure that 11.2x is going to do it any justice.

Anyway, all fun stuff.

 

[Berserkeley Mike]

So here's a thought... You have 50 shots with an ES of around 35 fps. 35 fps is also about one full turn of the power wheel, which moves the indicator to the right of the wheel one hash mark. The power wheel is also marked from 1 to 16. What if you started out at 1-2 and dialed the wheel down one number per shot for the first 16 shots until you get to 1-1, shoot another 16 shots, then dial the wheel up again one number per shot for the last 16 shots? Over those 48 shots would the ES be tighter, because you have it set for a little more power at the beginning and end of that shot curve?

 

[Franklink]

So here's a thought... You have 50 shots with an ES of around 35 fps. 35 fps is also about one full turn of the power wheel, which moves the indicator to the right of the wheel one hash mark. The power wheel is also marked from 1 to 16. What if you started out at 1-2 and dialed the wheel down one number per shot for the first 16 shots until you get to 1-1, shoot another 16 shots, then dial the wheel up again one number per shot for the last 16 shots? Over those 48 shots would the ES be tighter, because you have it set for a little more power at the beginning and end of that shot curve?

A guy could very likely adjust the wheel as they went, optimizing the hammer strike for the tank pressure. It would take one of the larger transfer ports though. I'm using the tiny transfer port as the power limiting factor, to the point that the power wheel can't really do much. It's just too strangled for air flow, which I feel is helping the shot to shot consistency. So as you suggested, using a larger transfer port (one that allows fps to be affected with more hammer spring tension via the wheel) would be a possible way to do what you're saying.

With enough trial and error (lotsa shots fired over a chronograph) to figure it all out, I think adjustments to the wheel to account for tank pressure would very likely extend the shot count even further. And that data could be condensed into a little cheat sheet to attach to the gun, just like we do with dope sheets for trajectory at various distances and in varying wind conditions.

I can easily envision exactly what you're saying, a little more hammer tension during the early partial valve lock, ease off the hammer spring tension during the pressures that correspond with the current plateau, and then dial back in some hammer spring tension as pressure falls and fps would also fall (to tao the valve harder and keep the fps up for longer). Ie, flatten out the shot string artificially by adjusting the hammer strike via the power wheel.

As for whether or not the ES would overall be tighter than what I graphed out above I just don't know. If I get real bored I might have to do some experimenting at some future point.

This reminded me of an aftermarket trinket being offered years ago. I think it was for the Benjamin Discovery. It was basically an endcap with graduations so that hammer spring tension could be noted and controlled to do exactly what you're talking about, adjusting to account for the pressure in the bottle (air tube in that case). Wanna say it was "Steve in CT" an old handle a guy used on "the yellow" forum which was a network 54 airgun forum years ago. He may have even been on the Crosman-specific "green forum "

Cool suggestion. Thanks.

 

[John "spysir" Blount]

Sorry to go off topic from the AF (true) Utility air rifle but like remembering the past.
"This reminded me of an aftermarket trinket being offered years ago. I think it was for the Benjamin Discovery. It was basically an endcap with graduations so that hammer spring tension could be noted and controlled to do exactly what you're talking about, adjusting to account for the pressure in the bottle (air tube in that case). Wanna say it was "Steve in CT" an old handle a guy used on "the yellow" forum which was a network 54 airgun forum years ago."
That would be "Steve in NC" you are thinking of Made that for the Discovery, also had his trigger for crosman's and a bunch of math in his head.
Not any way to apply this to an AF and if you cold make the AF dial(power wheel) that precise with the spring they use and general design, well $$$'s.
Link to a picture: https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/parts/custom-speed-dial/

Dont like the AF for look's air rifle need to have nice bluing and Walnut but they are an excellent Utility if you have then need be that power or (with good luck but common) good accuracy. Personally if trying to run as low power and for shots on an AF I think I would regulate it.

And I would think possible to learn to move the "power wheel" and learn where it shoots (?) I did similar with the valve travel limited on a Career 707 in the late 90's. And without a chorny. That took a couple thousand rounds believe it would be much harder to figure out (even with a chrony) on a spring adjuster esp with a long soft spring?


John

 

[RM.510bigbore]

Yes sir, a little bit ago I reached out to Tony and he responded that he'll have some of the WokGard2 in stock in a couple weeks.

Check out www.trajectron.com they have all the Airforce condor upgrades in stock..I just ordered a 115 gram.hammer..