Other Air pistol for powder burner training / simulation

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GeneT

GeneT

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Sep 7, 2020
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Arizona, United States
I have always wanted an airgun that could simulate a powder-burner for training and/or simulation. Many years ago, Colt introduced the "Ace", designed by "Carbine" Williams (inventor of the M1 Carbine gas system). It had a "floating chamber" that allowed a .22 long rifle cartridge to simulate the recoil of a .45. I'm not sure how close that simulation really was as I've never had a chance to shoot a Colt Ace, but one of the key complaints about it was that it quickly fouled and ceased to work properly. It dawned on me this morning that this wouldn't be a problem with air (or probably CO2*), so now I'm considering trying to make such a thing.

So here's the first question (there will undoubtedly be others, later on). What pellet pistol, probably CO2*, resembles a modern 1911 (not a mil-spec 1911A1), that might hold up to some serious battering, or might be amenable to reinforcements to hold up to serious battering, would make a good platform to start from? I really don't want to build from the ground up as most of the technology is there, I'd like to just focus on this concept.
TIA,
GsT

*CO2 because it seems like the most practical thing in order to keep an "authentic" (powder-burner) form factor. I'd happily consider an existing PCP if it maintained the form factor, but I'm not interested in pursuing that aspect of development at this point.
 
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Many use airsoft pistols for that training,as far as CO2 .45 relics, there Are many to choose from, what you want is blowback, metal and there are some of them, others will chime in about those, there is nothing more realistic as the airsoft pistols, their downfall is they use "green" gas, which I believe is propane.The fact is when I sold off most of my "real" pistols I replaced them with airsoft and they are like the real thing..Go to the airsoft site and check them out(y) yourself.
 
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shoot, a modern 'blowback' co2 is freakin awesome as it is - blowback, drop out mags ..check out the barra 1911

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I have a Tempest, but not quite sure how I'd work a floating chamber into one and the chamber must recoil to 'work' (provide the amplified rearward force, so I'm really looking for a semi. A blow back gun (undoubtedly metal) is what I have in mind, but it must shoot pellets. I have a couple BB pistols and they're just not accurate enough.

GsT
 
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Nomadic Pirate 66 said:
I use my Tangfolio 1911, I have 3 magazines and I load with only 10 rounds and keep rotating that way they never get cold ( as well as living in a tropical climate :ROFLMAO: )

I mainly practice quick draw, double tap and I take over 100 shots per session.


Most fun I have with airguns.
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Are you referring to their BB gun? If they make a pellet gun I might be interested.

Your practice is missing transitions... ;-)

GsT
 
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Modski66 said:
Umarex Glock dual-ammo or the SA-10?

They are both still 'revolvermatics' but from what I have tried of the belt-fed pellet firing pellet pistols, the small magazine cylinders are still easier to advance without needing one of Popeye's fingers.
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Thanks! I think that Umarex 1911A1 might be the ticket, at least for experimenting. I'd really like more modern 1911 (proper thumb safety and beavertail) but for experimentation, I think that might be the place to start.

Thanks again!

GsT
 
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Nomadic Pirate 66 said:
Yeah BB gun, cheaper and no real need for pellet accuracy really.
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I find myself shooting to the limit of my personal accuracy (under time pressure) semi-regularly. To simulate that I'd use much smaller targets for indoor practice. A BB gun is just not accurate enough to simulate an "upper A zone" shot at 15+ yards - whether using scaled down targets or actual distances. They certainly work for a lot of aspects of shooting, but they're incomplete and unfortunately most incomplete in the areas where I (and probably most) need the most practice. It's always fun to practice what you're good at, but practicing what you suck at is what makes us improve.

GsT
 
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Nomadic Pirate 66 said:
I use my Tangfolio 1911, I have 3 magazines and I load with only 10 rounds and keep rotating that way they never get cold ( as well as living in a tropical climate :ROFLMAO: )

I mainly practice quick draw, double tap and I take over 100 shots per session.


Most fun I have with airguns.
Click to expand...

I've also been impresses with my Tangfoglio style co2 bb pistol. These are well built, solid feeling, and reliable = for the money. Man I paid $70 for the first one I bought around 8 years ago.
 
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GeneT said:
I find myself shooting to the limit of my personal accuracy (under time pressure) semi-regularly. To simulate that I'd use much smaller targets for indoor practice. A BB gun is just not accurate enough to simulate an "upper A zone" shot at 15+ yards - whether using scaled down targets or actual distances. They certainly work for a lot of aspects of shooting, but they're incomplete and unfortunately most incomplete in the areas where I (and probably most) need the most practice. It's always fun to practice what you're good at, but practicing what you suck at is what makes us improve.

GsT
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I practice at 15 yards and can put 100s of rounds in the area between the mouth and heart ( that is my aiming kill zone with a pistol and quick draw/double tap, I've posted targets in the thread, I quess is " most fun in airgunning" ?

actually impressed with this BB gun accuracy
 
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Nomadic Pirate 66 said:
I practice at 15 yards and can put 100s of rounds in the area between the mouth and heart ( that is my aiming kill zone with a pistol and quick draw/double tap, I've posted targets in the thread, I quess is " most fun in airgunning" ?

actually impressed with this BB gun accuracy
Click to expand...
Which target and at what distance? I'm usually using USPSA targets (scaled). The area between the mouth and the heart is a 'near miss' (one point shy of full score). The eyes are full score, and then the heart is full score, if you try to relate it to anatomy.

I would certainly like a BB gun to be accurate enough, so I will consider the Tanfoglio, it's inexpensive enough. My current experience with BB's is that they're insufficient simulation of anything but close shots.

GsT
 
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GeneT said:
Which target and at what distance? I'm usually using USPSA targets (scaled). The area between the mouth and the heart is a 'near miss' (one point shy of full score). The eyes are full score, and then the heart is full score, if you try to relate it to anatomy.

I would certainly like a BB gun to be accurate enough, so I will consider the Tanfoglio, it's inexpensive enough. My current experience with BB's is that they're insufficient simulation of anything but close shots.

GsT
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Lifesize targets at 15 yards, I don't aim just draw and double tap as fast as I can and repeat for 50 plus times.

Anything that lands between heart and mouth is a kill really.

Will take pictures of the last target I used when I get home.
 
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GeneT,

I know exactly what you're going for. It's probably not possible, but you can get close.

There are a number of CO2/BB 1911 variations available, with different "brand" names. Most of them are made in the same factory as Dizzum's Barra shown above. If the magazine of the one you're interested in looks like that magazine, it's the same basic gun. Go on the PyramydAir.com site and search for BB Pistols and check out anything that looks good to you. Versions are available with beavertails, combat sights, speed safeties, light rails, etc. I'm old-school so I prefer the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec version.

Mine's very reliable and gets a good 60 shots per CO2 cartridge. Weight is lighter than a steel-frame 1911 but feels VERY similar to an alloy-framed 1911 I built, and also very similar to a Ciener-converted .22 1911 I built on a steel frame (alloy slide). Recoil of the CO2 blowback system is surprisingly similar to that .22 1911 (though not as much as the Colt/Ace floating chamber .22 conversion, which I also have a lot of experience with).

The gun operates EXACTLY like a "real" 1911. Trigger pull won't be as good as your race-tuned 1911 but I find it similar to a good USGI gun (around 5 pounds with just a hint of creep). If you can shoot this trigger well, your real gun will be a piece of cake.

As far as accuracy, my CO2/BB guns will put about 80 percent or more of its shots into a satisfying "rathole" of about an inch at 7 yards, with the rest being "outliers" but still well within 3 inches. I find my gun works best for fast draw and "point shooting" drills at 7 yards--a lot of fun and really helps build your "muscle memory" with the 1911 platform.

The whole idea is to come up with a challenge for the gun that it can just barely achieve, and then hone your skills achieving that standard faster and faster.

1710275015040.jpeg
 
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Not exactly a 1911 type, but if you can find a S&W M 78 or 79, CO2 gun, they closely resemble their M 41 22LR target pistol. They have not been made in years and would most likely need resealing. I got two about 3 years back, had them resealed and they are good shooters. The earlier models have an adjustable trigger.
 
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jkingrph said:
Not exactly a 1911 type, but if you can find a S&W M 78 or 79, CO2 gun, they closely resemble their M 41 22LR target pistol. They have not been made in years and would most likely need resealing. I got two about 3 years back, had them resealed and they are good shooters. The earlier models have an adjustable trigger.
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I am luck enough to have both the 78G and 79G; although not the earlier models with the adjustable trigger, I have found that if I cock the hammer, apply the safety and pull the trigger, it takes up most of the initial travel and pre-sets the sear. Then load the pellet, close the breech, disengage the safety and take the shot.
 
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Snake45 said:
GeneT,

I know exactly what you're going for. It's probably not possible, but you can get close.

There are a number of CO2/BB 1911 variations available, with different "brand" names. Most of them are made in the same factory as Dizzum's Barra shown above. If the magazine of the one you're interested in looks like that magazine, it's the same basic gun. Go on the PyramydAir.com site and search for BB Pistols and check out anything that looks good to you. Versions are available with beavertails, combat sights, speed safeties, light rails, etc. I'm old-school so I prefer the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec version.

Mine's very reliable and gets a good 60 shots per CO2 cartridge. Weight is lighter than a steel-frame 1911 but feels VERY similar to an alloy-framed 1911 I built, and also very similar to a Ciener-converted .22 1911 I built on a steel frame (alloy slide). Recoil of the CO2 blowback system is surprisingly similar to that .22 1911 (though not as much as the Colt/Ace floating chamber .22 conversion, which I also have a lot of experience with).

The gun operates EXACTLY like a "real" 1911. Trigger pull won't be as good as your race-tuned 1911 but I find it similar to a good USGI gun (around 5 pounds with just a hint of creep). If you can shoot this trigger well, your real gun will be a piece of cake.

As far as accuracy, my CO2/BB guns will put about 80 percent or more of its shots into a satisfying "rathole" of about an inch at 7 yards, with the rest being "outliers" but still well within 3 inches. I find my gun works best for fast draw and "point shooting" drills at 7 yards--a lot of fun and really helps build your "muscle memory" with the 1911 platform.

The whole idea is to come up with a challenge for the gun that it can just barely achieve, and then hone your skills achieving that standard faster and faster.

View attachment 445059
Click to expand...
I have seen a method of improving the accuracy of the co2 1911 by applying some self adhesive woven glass PTFE impregnated tape to the inside diameter of the front barrel bush. It needs just enough to keep the barrel centred but still free to allow the slide to travel freely.
 
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Snake45 said:
GeneT,

I know exactly what you're going for. It's probably not possible, but you can get close.

There are a number of CO2/BB 1911 variations available, with different "brand" names. Most of them are made in the same factory as Dizzum's Barra shown above. If the magazine of the one you're interested in looks like that magazine, it's the same basic gun. Go on the PyramydAir.com site and search for BB Pistols and check out anything that looks good to you. Versions are available with beavertails, combat sights, speed safeties, light rails, etc. I'm old-school so I prefer the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec version.

Mine's very reliable and gets a good 60 shots per CO2 cartridge. Weight is lighter than a steel-frame 1911 but feels VERY similar to an alloy-framed 1911 I built, and also very similar to a Ciener-converted .22 1911 I built on a steel frame (alloy slide). Recoil of the CO2 blowback system is surprisingly similar to that .22 1911 (though not as much as the Colt/Ace floating chamber .22 conversion, which I also have a lot of experience with).

The gun operates EXACTLY like a "real" 1911. Trigger pull won't be as good as your race-tuned 1911 but I find it similar to a good USGI gun (around 5 pounds with just a hint of creep). If you can shoot this trigger well, your real gun will be a piece of cake.

As far as accuracy, my CO2/BB guns will put about 80 percent or more of its shots into a satisfying "rathole" of about an inch at 7 yards, with the rest being "outliers" but still well within 3 inches. I find my gun works best for fast draw and "point shooting" drills at 7 yards--a lot of fun and really helps build your "muscle memory" with the 1911 platform.

The whole idea is to come up with a challenge for the gun that it can just barely achieve, and then hone your skills achieving that standard faster and faster.

View attachment 445059
Click to expand...
yup, I find your post to mirror my experience with the Tangfolio
 
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