Other Air pistol for powder burner training / simulation

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borne2fly said:
Years ago there was the Crosman 451. Built for the army specifically as a training weapon for the 1911. It was unsuccessful for several reasons but occasionally one comes up for sale, usually quite pricey. I understand they can be a little finicky but quite fun to shoot
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You, sir, are going to cost me time AND money... ;-)

Thank you very much for drawing this to my attention. I'll be on the lookout for one, but might just try duplicating the thing from (almost) scratch.

GsT
 
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GeneT said:
You, sir, are going to cost me time AND money... ;-)

Thank you very much for drawing this to my attention. I'll be on the lookout for one, but might just try duplicating the thing from (almost) scratch.

GsT
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Oh yah, that seems to be exactly what you're looking for. :rolleyes:

www.pyramydair.com

Crosman’s mysterious 451 Military .45 Auto | Pyramyd AIR Blog

by B.B. Pelletier That was the model designation, but the 451 was really a .22 pellet pistol. As famous as the Crosman 600 is, the 451 is equally unknown, except among advanced collectors. Both air pistols were .22 caliber semiautomatics with true semiauto functioning. But where the 600 remained...
www.pyramydair.com
 
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This is a short session I did a few weeks back with my Tangfolio, quick draw, quick double tap, repeat at 15 yards

SAM_0048.JPG
 
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“ …. but might just try duplicating the thing from (almost) scratch. “

If you decide to go that path, you have the opportunity to take advantage of all the advances made since that gun was made. The rotary magazine proved to be problematic, so another approach might be in order. Loading pellets into a repeater is significantly more complicated than for BB’s, ie maintaining the proper orientation during loading and avoiding distorting the pellets. This has been somewhat resolved by stuffing the pellets into various magazines, by loading the pellets into a tube nose-to-tail (Crosman 600), and by belt feeds ((Hatsan Blitz). I’ve considered using something like the “mini plastic shells” Hatsan uses, but instead of a belt feed I’d look at stuffing them into a stick magazine and let the gun eject the spent plastic “shell”. Sure, I’d want to collect all those shells for re-use, but I figure watching them all fly out the ejection port would be worth it
 
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GeneT said:
You, sir, are going to cost me time AND money... ;-)

Thank you very much for drawing this to my attention. I'll be on the lookout for one, but might just try duplicating the thing from (almost) scratch.

GsT
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Have you looked into the Baikal Makarov MP-654K?
Granted, it's not a 1911, and it's a BB gun not a pellet gun.

But before you dismiss it as "just a BB gun", there are a few things one should know ....

1) This thing has a rifled barrel. It begs for pellets.
I'm old school and don't believe in pushing steel ammo through rifled barrels, so my little Russian gal has only even seen lead. One magazine of lead BB's, only once, and thereafter only pellets spoon fed one at a time. And the accuracy with pellets is impressive, especially for such a short barrel.
One can shoot semi-auto with BB's, or hand feed it pellets if going for accuracy.

2) Other than the grips, it's all steel. It's heavy. No alloys here.
Feels real because it is real. I understand it's made in the same factory as the real Makarov.
The slide spring is the same as the real gun. It's stiff. You need to rack this thing like you mean it.
Trigger pull is long and a bit heavy. Pull it with firm determination.

Overall, the MP-654K was a little "too real" for the powers that be, consequently they have become harder to obtain.

Baikal_MP-654K_Makarov.JPG
 
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I had a 1/4 scale steel challenge setup with all 8 stages in my garage. I shot somewhere around a million airsoft bbs from a 2011 replica which felt exactly like my real 2011 and used same holster. The times I shot at 1/4 scale practice were the same times I would shoot live fire at a match. It was invaluable practice. I typically shot 5000 rounds of live 9mm per month...but that was nothing compared to airsoft. I went from newbie to master in under a season. It's tremendously helpful. My airsoft guns were green gas that I converted to 80 psi air. I had a super small and flexible whip connected to a compressor. It was very convenient.

Mike
 
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thomasair said:
I had a 1/4 scale steel challenge setup with all 8 stages in my garage. I shot somewhere around a million airsoft bbs from a 2011 replica which felt exactly like my real 2011 and used same holster. The times I shot at 1/4 scale practice were the same times I would shoot live fire at a match. It was invaluable practice. I typically shot 5000 rounds of live 9mm per month...but that was nothing compared to airsoft. I went from newbie to master in under a season. It's tremendously helpful. My airsoft guns were green gas that I converted to 80 psi air. I had a super small and flexible whip connected to a compressor. It was very convenient.

Mike
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Great post.
 
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GeneT said:
Thanks! I think that Umarex 1911A1 might be the ticket, at least for experimenting. I'd really like more modern 1911 (proper thumb safety and beavertail) but for experimentation, I think that might be the place to start.

Thanks again!

GsT
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I have an Umarex 1911A1 and have always been pleased with the accuracy. The target I use is several rows of 1/4” black dots printed on standard printer paper, and I typically give myself 3 shots per dot.
 
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thomasair said:
I had a 1/4 scale steel challenge setup with all 8 stages in my garage. I shot somewhere around a million airsoft bbs from a 2011 replica which felt exactly like my real 2011 and used same holster. The times I shot at 1/4 scale practice were the same times I would shoot live fire at a match. It was invaluable practice. I typically shot 5000 rounds of live 9mm per month...but that was nothing compared to airsoft. I went from newbie to master in under a season. It's tremendously helpful. My airsoft guns were green gas that I converted to 80 psi air. I had a super small and flexible whip connected to a compressor. It was very convenient.

Mike
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That would be a very nice setup. Would you be willing to provide details on your 2011 replica as well as your HPA conversion? I'm assuming that you found the airsoft sufficiently accurate at 1/4 distance? Even on long shots like "Outer Limits"?

GsT
 
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Steel Challenge was a passing phase for me when I was unable to shoot FT for a season due to a MCL tear.

The accuracy was not a problem. There was a part in the guns that failed every 15-20 thousand shots. For the life of me I can't remember what it was. It was pretty easy to replace. I had just as much fun shooting 1/4 scale airsoft as I did full scale.

I think the shot timer I used was one called "make ready" on my iPhone . It worked flawlessly and don't think it ever missed a shot.

I will look in my shop and see if I can find the airsofts. If I can, you can have them. I have a feeling they disappeared when we moved....although I do recall seeing one of the boxes they came in at one time. The conversion was nothing more than tapping a hole for the standard shop air line connection.

I'm pretty sure I bought mine from Pyramyd.

Mike
 
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Also I have 3 magazines that I only fill with 10 rounds, that way they never get cold and constantly practice the magazine change too.

So shoot 30 shots then reload, and shoot one more round , repeat......so I guess I end up shooting about 150 rounds per session ( normally not like the short session I shown )


Long time ago I did try an accuracy test by actually taking time and aiming and I was actually pretty happy with overall accuracy if I recall,......If I get time I might do that test again and post results.
 
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thomasair said:
I had a 1/4 scale steel challenge setup with all 8 stages in my garage. I shot somewhere around a million airsoft bbs from a 2011 replica which felt exactly like my real 2011 and used same holster. The times I shot at 1/4 scale practice were the same times I would shoot live fire at a match. It was invaluable practice. I typically shot 5000 rounds of live 9mm per month...but that was nothing compared to airsoft. I went from newbie to master in under a season. It's tremendously helpful. My airsoft guns were green gas that I converted to 80 psi air. I had a super small and flexible whip connected to a compressor. It was very convenient.

Mike
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This is interesting info to know Mike! I mention this because there's a guy over at SH forum that just got his USPSA Master designation who is one of those people which are very opinionated and not unabrasive BTW.

He calls anyone who uses airguns and airsofts "Fudd's" and says this won't work to master pistols in USPSA. I think there's a lot to that subject but ..................

Here's the thread in case you want a fun read.
www.snipershide.com

Sidearms & Scatterguns - Any USPSA shooters here

I am just getting g started shooting USPSA and have quickly gotten addicted. I am not the fastest and am not too worried about my time atm. I am more concerned about form and fundamentals. I figure the speed will come but that I can't miss fast enough to make up for it. Any tips, tricks or...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
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In the time I ran steel challenge matches I never once saw a uspsa shooter shoot better then 2 classes below their uspsa classification at a SC match. That goes for uspsa grand masters too. Uspsa Masters would shoot B level scores in steel challenge, Grand Masters would top out at A level in SC. A class...C class SC. They poo pooed SC a lot, though. I'll probably skip the frustration of reading the link...haha.

Mike
 
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Nomadic Pirate 66 said:
Also I have 3 magazines that I only fill with 10 rounds, that way they never get cold and constantly practice the magazine change too.

So shoot 30 shots then reload, and shoot one more round , repeat......so I guess I end up shooting about 150 rounds per session ( normally not like the short session I shown )


Long time ago I did try an accuracy test by actually taking time and aiming and I was actually pretty happy with overall accuracy if I recall,......If I get time I might do that test again and post results.
Click to expand...
“…. 3 magazines that I only fill with 10 rounds, that way they never get cold and constantly practice the magazine change too.“

Great idea!
Most of the co2 guns I have are single shot pellet guns, plenty of time between shots. Recenty I picked up some full auto stuff and bumped into the cooling issue. Looks like I need to collect a few extra mags and start limiting to shots per mag
 
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