Other Air pistol for powder burner training / simulation

[GeneT]

In the time I ran steel challenge matches I never once saw a uspsa shooter shoot better then 2 classes below their uspsa classification at a SC match. That goes for uspsa grand masters too. Uspsa Masters would shoot B level scores in steel challenge, Grand Masters would top out at A level in SC. A class...C class SC. They poo pooed SC a lot, though. I'll probably skip the frustration of reading the link...haha.

Mike

I shoot USPSA almost exclusively now, but when I shot both, the top dogs at steel were the very same individuals that were top at USPSA. (This was before steel was absorbed by USPSA, so there weren't really classifications for steel.) But under the right conditions I can see how the aforementioned could happen - if your USPSA matches have a hard 'tilt' toward easy targets, it's easy to get sloppy. OTOH, there are always steel stages that demand (relative) accuracy.

GsT

 

[steve123]

I shoot USPSA almost exclusively now, but when I shot both, the top dogs at steel were the very same individuals that were top at USPSA. (This was before steel was absorbed by USPSA, so there weren't really classifications for steel.) But under the right conditions I can see how the aforementioned could happen - if your USPSA matches have a hard 'tilt' toward easy targets, it's easy to get sloppy. OTOH, there are always steel stages that demand (relative) accuracy.

GsT

In that thread I linked I refer to one sloppy shooter I used to know. Oh he was fast on paper but......

The Smith that built my STI 40 back almost 30 years ago was DR Middlebrook. I watched him win the American Handgunner World Shootoff one year, which BTW was held not far from where Mike N lives now. He shot a iron sighted Tangfoglio and beat all the best Open shooters in the world that day! On the plate racks the first steel was still falling when he got to the sixth target and would hammer down the stop popper with 4-5 rounds before it fell all the way down!!!!!!!!!!!!

The AHWS was a very unique match consisting of "side by side, and man against man, on identical target displays", whether plate racks, or field courses, of 6 plates of various sizes, and then angaging the crossing stop plate poppers which made for 7 targets total for each competitor. Whoever finished all six first and ended up with his/her stop plate on the bottom won.
The year I won B stock I fired a bit over 1000 rounds in 3 days because there were 25 people in my squad. Fun because I was the last one standing a bunch of the time. Right there up near the top of my fondest memories!

The GM's are all very polished in their craft but most of the M's are still not quite there yet, but in A there is a much wider space in ability level. I never made it past mid A because the top A's were pretty much at M level.

 

[steve123]

In the time I ran steel challenge matches I never once saw a uspsa shooter shoot better then 2 classes below their uspsa classification at a SC match. That goes for uspsa grand masters too. Uspsa Masters would shoot B level scores in steel challenge, Grand Masters would top out at A level in SC. A class...C class SC. They poo pooed SC a lot, though. I'll probably skip the frustration of reading the link...haha.

Mike

C'mon Mike I need someone else to feel my pain, LOL.

As I've found out arguing on forums is kind of a waste of time but at the same time its fun to see how things end up.

 

[GeneT]

“ …. but might just try duplicating the thing from (almost) scratch. “

If you decide to go that path, you have the opportunity to take advantage of all the advances made since that gun was made. The rotary magazine proved to be problematic, so another approach might be in order. Loading pellets into a repeater is significantly more complicated than for BB’s, ie maintaining the proper orientation during loading and avoiding distorting the pellets. This has been somewhat resolved by stuffing the pellets into various magazines, by loading the pellets into a tube nose-to-tail (Crosman 600), and by belt feeds ((Hatsan Blitz). I’ve considered using something like the “mini plastic shells” Hatsan uses, but instead of a belt feed I’d look at stuffing them into a stick magazine and let the gun eject the spent plastic “shell”. Sure, I’d want to collect all those shells for re-use, but I figure watching them all fly out the ejection port would be worth it

In my (admittedly limited) "research" I haven't found anything indicating magazine issues - do you have a link? I'd like to see what they were, specifically. I did find reference to issues with the hammer breaking.* I like the shell idea, but then you'd have to find a new place for pressurized gas (air / co2). I'm fumbling around with CAD'ing up a model, but the details I have right now leave a lot to be desired. I'll probably make a post to see if anyone has any more documention (there's some kind of repair manual I've found mentioned, but haven't seen).

I'm definitely up for improving the old design, and since I'm not up to making patterns and casting a frame (at least yet) I'd be tentatively modifying an "80%" 1911 frame. I'll have to get a little farther along before deciding whether to adapt a 'real' slide, or manufacture one. Once I figure out the main operational components, I'll build some kind of franken-gun (probably innards mounted to a plate) to see where I am, then commence trying to make it all work in a gun shaped mount.
I'm looking forward to this project. Thanks again for the incentive!

Best info I've found so far: https://worap.wordpress.com/2016/12/02/crosman-451-hammer-saga-part-1/

GsT

 

[borne2fly]

In my (admittedly limited) "research" I haven't found anything indicating magazine issues - do you have a link? I'd like to see what they were, specifically. I did find reference to issues with the hammer breaking.* I like the shell idea, but then you'd have to find a new place for pressurized gas (air / co2). I'm fumbling around with CAD'ing up a model, but the details I have right now leave a lot to be desired. I'll probably make a post to see if anyone has any more documention (there's some kind of repair manual I've found mentioned, but haven't seen).

I'm definitely up for improving the old design, and since I'm not up to making patterns and casting a frame (at least yet) I'd be tentatively modifying an "80%" 1911 frame. I'll have to get a little farther along before deciding whether to adapt a 'real' slide, or manufacture one. Once I figure out the main operational components, I'll build some kind of franken-gun (probably innards mounted to a plate) to see where I am, then commence trying to make it all work in a gun shaped mount.
I'm looking forward to this project. Thanks again for the incentive!

Best info I've found so far: https://worap.wordpress.com/2016/12/02/crosman-451-hammer-saga-part-1/

GsT

The pellet jamming issue is mentioned in this article ….
https://worap.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/classic-replica-air-pistol-review-crosman-model-451/

I agree with your idea of cobbling a “Frankengun” together as a functional proof-of-concept. Modifying an existing powder gun was done by Baikal (Makarov MP-654K), so that approach has some merit. Moving steel parts back and forth will likely burn a lot of gas (as would ejecting spent plastic “shells”) but for me that’s an acceptable trade-off. Note that co2 cartridges don’t have to be 12g, the smaller 8g cartridges are readily available and my Schimel uses those …. I only get around 16 shots per cartridge but those shots are loud and powerful. I bring this up because you mentioned the need to find a place for the co2 with everything else going into this gun, and the 8g cartridges are noticeably smaller

 

[GeneT]

The pellet jamming issue is mentioned in this article ….
https://worap.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/classic-replica-air-pistol-review-crosman-model-451/

I agree with your idea of cobbling a “Frankengun” together as a functional proof-of-concept. Modifying an existing powder gun was done by Baikal (Makarov MP-654K), so that approach has some merit. Moving steel parts back and forth will likely burn a lot of gas (as would ejecting spent plastic “shells”) but for me that’s an acceptable trade-off. Note that co2 cartridges don’t have to be 12g, the smaller 8g cartridges are readily available and my Schimel uses those …. I only get around 16 shots per cartridge but those shots are loud and powerful. I bring this up because you mentioned the need to find a place for the co2 with everything else going into this gun, and the 8g cartridges are noticeably smaller

I see the pellet jamming issues, but it doesn't really seem related to the magazine so much as the the lack of something to prevent the user from firing with inadequate CO2. Interesting problem, too - one of the things that makes the '451 so intriguing is that the hammer is cocked by the cycling of the slide, but that means it's susceptible to an under-powered follow-up shot. Something to think about in terms of improving the design.

GsT

 

[borne2fly]

The pellet jamming issue is mentioned in this article ….
https://worap.wordpress.com/2016/11/08/classic-replica-air-pistol-review-crosman-model-451/

I agree with your idea of cobbling a “Frankengun” together as a functional proof-of-concept. Modifying an existing powder gun was done by Baikal (Makarov MP-654K), so that approach has some merit. Moving steel parts back and forth will likely burn a lot of gas (as would ejecting spent plastic “shells”) but for me that’s an acceptable trade-off. Note that co2 cartridges don’t have to be 12g, the smaller 8g cartridges are readily available and my Schimel uses those …. I only get around 16 shots per cartridge but those shots are loud and powerful. I bring this up because you mentioned the need to find a place for the co2 with everything else going into this gun, and the 8g cartridges are noticeably smaller

Another approach I’ve considered is to start with an existing BB gun. A lot of these already have the blowback mechanism all worked out. I would then need to design a different loader for pellets and an ejector for the shells.

 

[borne2fly]

I see the pellet jamming issues, but it doesn't really seem related to the magazine so much as the the lack of something to prevent the user from firing with inadequate CO2. Interesting problem, too - one of the things that makes the '451 so intriguing is that the hammer is cocked by the cycling of the slide, but that means it's susceptible to an under-powered follow-up shot. Something to think about in terms of improving the design.

GsT

If you can find a 451 I suspect all those problems could be resolved. For those of us who don’t mind making replacement parts out of steel (the hammer) and maybe doing some redesign then this could be a remarkable pistol. Crosman was trying to keep production costs down, but that’s diametrically opposed to our interest in quality and reliability

 

[GeneT]

I have a couple of CO2 BB guns - Sig Sauer 1911 with Molon Labe on the side (hate it, for several reasons) and a CZ P09 ("licensed", but I don't know who made it). I know I wasn't satisfied with the accuracy of the Sig, but I don't know if I even really tested the CZ. Both have metal, but not steel, slides. Might have to sacrifice one to examine the internals, but I think the '451 is closer to where I want to be.

Looking for one, but the ones I see are super-collectible (box, manual, etc, etc). Might have to get one of those and then see if I can trade for a shooter...

Edit: the CZ turns out to be an airsoft. I had been using it for a laser-actuated practice, so didn't recall. I'll have to get some airsoft BBs and see how it works. I just verified that the Sig BB gun isn't even close to accurate enough for meaningful practice.

GsT

 

[borne2fly]

I have a couple of CO2 BB guns - Sig Sauer 1911 with Molon Labe on the side (hate it, for several reasons) and a CZ P09 ("licensed", but I don't know who made it). I know I wasn't satisfied with the accuracy of the Sig, but I don't know if I even really tested the CZ. Both have metal, but not steel, slides. Might have to sacrifice one to examine the internals, but I think the '451 is closer to where I want to be.

Looking for one, but the ones I see are super-collectible (box, manual, etc, etc). Might have to get one of those and then see if I can trade for a shooter...

Edit: the CZ turns out to be an airsoft. I had been using it for a laser-actuated practice, so didn't recall. I'll have to get some airsoft BBs and see how it works. I just verified that the Sig BB gun isn't even close to accurate enough for meaningful practice.

GsT

You might take a look at these guys …

PARA BELLUM Steel Slide & Stainless Barrel Set for VFC Kimber Ultra Ca

This PARA BELLUM Steel Slide & Stainless Barrel Set for VFC Kimber Ultra Carry GBB Airsoft is crafted with durable steel slide and stainless barrel set, combined with a full CNC aluminum frame for enhanced performance and extended service life. Suitable for airsoft use only.

www.wgcshop.com

I’ve never bought anything from them but the fact that they make steel parts caught my interest.

 

[GeneT]

You might take a look at these guys …

PARA BELLUM Steel Slide & Stainless Barrel Set for VFC Kimber Ultra Ca

This PARA BELLUM Steel Slide & Stainless Barrel Set for VFC Kimber Ultra Carry GBB Airsoft is crafted with durable steel slide and stainless barrel set, combined with a full CNC aluminum frame for enhanced performance and extended service life. Suitable for airsoft use only.

www.wgcshop.com

I’ve never bought anything from them but the fact that they make steel parts caught my interest.

That is *very* interesting (and stupid expensive, but, but...). At this point I'm going to (maybe) proceed with what I've got (which includes some 80% frames and a couple of slides. Damnit! You're a bad influence! A few more suggestions like this and you're going to have some 'splainin' to do to my wife...

GsT

 

[borne2fly]

That is *very* interesting (and stupid expensive, but, but...). At this point I'm going to (maybe) proceed with what I've got (which includes some 80% frames and a couple of slides. Damnit! You're a bad influence! A few more suggestions like this and you're going to have some 'splainin' to do to my wife...

GsT

Welcome to the Dark Side …
Indeed, it’s a bottomless rabbit hole.
But before I spent that kind of money I’d get a block of steel and write up a program for the mill. At least if you make it yourself you can select industry standard o-rings, fasteners, etc. Not the unobtainable weirdo stuff used on a lot of airguns.

 

[borne2fly]

I have always wanted an airgun that could simulate a powder-burner for training and/or simulation. Many years ago, Colt introduced the "Ace", designed by "Carbine" Williams (inventor of the M1 Carbine gas system). It had a "floating chamber" that allowed a .22 long rifle cartridge to simulate the recoil of a .45. I'm not sure how close that simulation really was as I've never had a chance to shoot a Colt Ace, but one of the key complaints about it was that it quickly fouled and ceased to work properly. It dawned on me this morning that this wouldn't be a problem with air (or probably CO2*), so now I'm considering trying to make such a thing.

So here's the first question (there will undoubtedly be others, later on). What pellet pistol, probably CO2*, resembles a modern 1911 (not a mil-spec 1911A1), that might hold up to some serious battering, or might be amenable to reinforcements to hold up to serious battering, would make a good platform to start from? I really don't want to build from the ground up as most of the technology is there, I'd like to just focus on this concept.
TIA,
GsT

*CO2 because it seems like the most practical thing in order to keep an "authentic" (powder-burner) form factor. I'd happily consider an existing PCP if it maintained the form factor, but I'm not interested in pursuing that aspect of development at this point.

FYI …. I noticed that there’s currently a Crosman 451 for sale on Ebay

 

[GeneT]

FYI …. I noticed that there’s currently a Crosman 451 for sale on Ebay

Thanks! I've seen that one a few times since I started looking, but the price seems out of line. The only one I've seen that went for that much was a 'perfect' collectible (basically new, in box). Interestingly, that seller has apparently sold a few '451s...

GsT

 

[borne2fly]

Thanks! I've seen that one a few times since I started looking, but the price seems out of line. The only one I've seen that went for that much was a 'perfect' collectible (basically new, in box). Interestingly, that seller has apparently sold a few '451s...

GsT

I know you are looking for a repeater, but for 1911 simulation/practice would you consider a HW45?
It’s only single-shot, and it’s a springer, but it packs a punch. I have the .22, and on full cock it kicks almost as hard as any rimfire pistol. Another similarity … it’s grip-sensitive, gotta hold it like you mean it. This is lost on my gas guns and makes them less suitable for this sort of practice

 

[borne2fly]

I recently discovered another "oldie" that I'd never heard of before .... Crosman C40.
Basically it's the all-metal version of the Crosman 1008.

It's not a direct copy of a 1911, but I suspect you'd like it.
It's as large as a 1911.
It's *heavy* ... maybe 2lbs.
It uses a rotary magazine like Umarex, but unlike the 451 this mag system doesn't exhibit the 451's jamming issues.
Overall construction feels incredibly solid.

I found this one on an auction site, just got it today, needs resealing before I can do much with it.
These appear for sale more often than the 451. and some parts are still available.

 

[GeneT]

I recently discovered another "oldie" that I'd never heard of before .... Crosman C40.
Basically it's the all-metal version of the Crosman 1008.

It's not a direct copy of a 1911, but I suspect you'd like it.
It's as large as a 1911.
It's *heavy* ... maybe 2lbs.
It uses a rotary magazine like Umarex, but unlike the 451 this mag system doesn't exhibit the 451's jamming issues.
Overall construction feels incredibly solid.

I found this one on an auction site, just got it today, needs resealing before I can do much with it.
These appear for sale more often than the 451. and some parts are still available.

Interesting. Thanks! I'll keep my eyes open for one. Some really poor design choices there (slide-mounted safeties - don't get me started...), but probably livable in a practice gun. I was not aware of these.

GsT

 

[jlwilliams]

Anyone try the Umarex Glock 19 for this sort of practice? Is it accurate enough to be worth it?