This sounds to me like someone adjusted the trigger too much without testing that the safety still worked.
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Airgun safety - Consumers Should Demand Better
- Thread starter AllThingsAI
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Spot on as far as I’m concerned! Light triggers are great...nothing better than a great adjustable trigger that breaks like glasss! I wouldn’t have it any other way. But we can have both, fully adjustable triggers that don’t have to compromise the functionality of the manual safety. That’s the whole point. I know nothing about the adjustability of the trigger in the Crown...I haven’t touched it. But from what I’ve learned since is that apparently an adjustment of trigger sensivity could potentially affect the function of the safety....I’ve even seen some posts where there is an exposed Allen screw to adjust the safety somehow....my question is why would anyone want or need access to a safety adjustment, or why should they not be able to adjust their trigger with confidence? Why does a manual safety design require the adjustment of a screw by anyone? This isn’t a design trade off that needs to be made, you can do both and we should Demand no less. Coming from the firearms world it’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would accept this. It’s dangerous. I honestly believe the vast majority of people think like me but are afraid to speak up. I sure wish they would.
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Nope. Not requesting an adjustable safety. I also want adjustable triggers - and depending on the guns price; expect it. What I'm saying is that both parties (manufacturer and owner) need to be responsible. Example: I own an air rifle that the trigger can be adjusted in such a manner as to make the safety inoperable. (Note- this is outside of the recommended range of adjustment). The safety catch on this rifle is adjustable just for this situation / to make it function properly again. The manufacturer's design is safe. As the owner it is my responsibility to make sure that any alterations to the rifle's factory settings do not cause an unsafe condition. Yes, a safety that can not be made not to function thru trigger adjustments would be a better design. Yes, it should be designed this way. Would I be willing to have a "lesser" trigger for this added safety? NO. But... I personally do not adjust, tweak, fiddle or tinker with anything that is potentially dangerous without first doing my research.
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My takes...
Firstly, only point a rifle at things you intend to shoot, even more so when cocked/loaded..problem solved, accidental discharges be it gun or operator are into a safe direction, and hopefully a lesson learned. When I am shooting down my makeshift range, and have one loaded, and have to make a trip down range, I either de-cock the rifle, or move its barrel into a position that will discharge safely.
Secondly, its hard to have a very light trigger pull with a heavy hammer spring/lightweight hammer combo, depending on how its designed...unfortunately some manufacturers use way too light of hammers and way too heavy of springs for a safe sub 16 oz trigger pull... I have my rifle set at 11 oz, with a 7.7 lb/in hammer spring, took a lot of work to get it reduced safely that way, and was not in the original trigger groups design...if anything bad ever happens, its on me..an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in that case so I abide by my rule which I listed first.
Thirdly, triggers should be designed in a way to prevent over-travel of adjustment that allows these conditions (lawsuit anyone? I am sure nearly all manufacturers with adjustable triggers have these kind of issues, when safe guards could easily be put in place as prevention) I don't blame any manufacturers specifically, but I think these measures need to certainly be addressed moving forward, just as any other issues have in the past. If it only takes an allen key with zero serious modifications to cause an incident such as a rifle self firing spontaneously when left cock, then safeguards need to be in place (ie: adjustment limiters, robustly engineered as to not be easily bypassed)
We're well beyond the age of air guns being seen or treated as toys by those who are educated on them...definitely best to respect them as a lethal weapon (intended for hunting game).
Firstly, only point a rifle at things you intend to shoot, even more so when cocked/loaded..problem solved, accidental discharges be it gun or operator are into a safe direction, and hopefully a lesson learned. When I am shooting down my makeshift range, and have one loaded, and have to make a trip down range, I either de-cock the rifle, or move its barrel into a position that will discharge safely.
Secondly, its hard to have a very light trigger pull with a heavy hammer spring/lightweight hammer combo, depending on how its designed...unfortunately some manufacturers use way too light of hammers and way too heavy of springs for a safe sub 16 oz trigger pull... I have my rifle set at 11 oz, with a 7.7 lb/in hammer spring, took a lot of work to get it reduced safely that way, and was not in the original trigger groups design...if anything bad ever happens, its on me..an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in that case so I abide by my rule which I listed first.
Thirdly, triggers should be designed in a way to prevent over-travel of adjustment that allows these conditions (lawsuit anyone? I am sure nearly all manufacturers with adjustable triggers have these kind of issues, when safe guards could easily be put in place as prevention) I don't blame any manufacturers specifically, but I think these measures need to certainly be addressed moving forward, just as any other issues have in the past. If it only takes an allen key with zero serious modifications to cause an incident such as a rifle self firing spontaneously when left cock, then safeguards need to be in place (ie: adjustment limiters, robustly engineered as to not be easily bypassed)
We're well beyond the age of air guns being seen or treated as toys by those who are educated on them...definitely best to respect them as a lethal weapon (intended for hunting game).
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I agree, but mechanically there is no reason you can’t have both a highly adjustable Trigger and a safety that is not dependent on that adjustment. We should demand no less. This isn’t a design trade off that has to be made...it has been perfected for longer than any of us have been alive. The whole reason I wanted to jump into PCPs was because I LOVE the innovation that is going on! It’s fantastic, but safety shouldn’t be compromised for the sake of an innovative design. Jewel makes arguably the best triggers in the world, Kidd’s two-stage 10/22 trigger is exquisite...no safety trade offs made. I can adjust the trigger down to a point where it’s clearly unsafe and would never pass a bump test...but the safety still works everytime.
I’ve made my point blatantly clear, I’d love to hear more people’s comments and thoughts.
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Well thought out response. The problem of a light trigger with a heavy spring has long been sorted out. Have you seen the size and strength of a firing pin spring? Its insanely powerful and it’s held back by a trigger group that can release down to 3oz and still pass a bump test....AND the safety still works independently to hold back the firing pin from ever moving forward if the sear comes loose...that is inherently safe by design, tried and true with no compromises to trigger quality. Let’s get this industry to that point, the same techniques can be used to hold back a 17lb hammer spring and a safety could easily stop a mechanical valve from opening independent of trigger adjustment.
These rifles are WAY past the toy status....no compromises are necessary here, but sometimes innovation moves too fast and we try to reinvent the wheel.
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think I get it!!Adjusting the trigger.. should have nothing to do with the safety...they should in fact be separate ....a safety blocks the trigger from firing...
But for many pellet guns it ain't so...bad design or whatever..it goes back a long ways...and to fix the bad safety design would require a total different assembly.
Not going to happen ....for many air guns it has been that way a long time....
So you are right on what you are asking and "preaching " ,the truth is if you what said air guns you "learn: to adjust them is ways they are still safe=their safeties still function as they should.
If a "safety agency" got involved they would make all new air guns have triggers and safeties separate... certainly hope that Never happens.
Air guns and powder burners are different,Heck some of my powder burners do not have a safety...think some revolvers..
In some ways you are pointing to a problem that exists but is really not a problem for a vast number of air gun users....we know about the trigger and how adjustments can screw up the safety....you can say the heck with the vast majority of us and use the argument that a Novice should not have to worry about such things as triggers and safeties...ok true..
A owner of any devise should Read the manual before using such device...and if not understanding it call the manufacture....and let them explain the right way to do something...you will find that in many manuals it states Do Not...try to adjust....
Your powder burners have many laws pertaining to them..you enter a new realm here...we air gunners adapt to what we need to,we do not what lawyers entering our domain. with fix it or else BS.
What I see here is a good idea you have stressed upon....did you ever own a BB gun,I have many and none of them had safeties...
your point is well intended and spot on for all new air rifles....I am in the camp of the best safety is the training a person receives in training safe fire arm handling.
But for many pellet guns it ain't so...bad design or whatever..it goes back a long ways...and to fix the bad safety design would require a total different assembly.
Not going to happen ....for many air guns it has been that way a long time....
So you are right on what you are asking and "preaching " ,the truth is if you what said air guns you "learn: to adjust them is ways they are still safe=their safeties still function as they should.
If a "safety agency" got involved they would make all new air guns have triggers and safeties separate... certainly hope that Never happens.
Air guns and powder burners are different,Heck some of my powder burners do not have a safety...think some revolvers..
In some ways you are pointing to a problem that exists but is really not a problem for a vast number of air gun users....we know about the trigger and how adjustments can screw up the safety....you can say the heck with the vast majority of us and use the argument that a Novice should not have to worry about such things as triggers and safeties...ok true..
A owner of any devise should Read the manual before using such device...and if not understanding it call the manufacture....and let them explain the right way to do something...you will find that in many manuals it states Do Not...try to adjust....
Your powder burners have many laws pertaining to them..you enter a new realm here...we air gunners adapt to what we need to,we do not what lawyers entering our domain. with fix it or else BS.
What I see here is a good idea you have stressed upon....did you ever own a BB gun,I have many and none of them had safeties...
your point is well intended and spot on for all new air rifles....I am in the camp of the best safety is the training a person receives in training safe fire arm handling.
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Get this one...my Anshutz 54 rifle a 22 RF would FIRE just by closing the BOLT home and I never even touched the trigger nor made any adjustments SUPER SCARY!!! My Pardini 22 Rimfire pistol would do a double tap fire 2-3 rounds during the trigger pull and that too I had never ever adjusted and these ain't cheap!!! Yo!
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Please be patient - bit of a rant follows -
Triggers and safety's are delicate, and when adjusting, like the handbook says, always check. Heck, always check even if not adjusting.
As for the Firearms industry solving the problem, not so. Anyone familiar with the Remington 700 series rifles and related trigger issues? I owned a 700ADL till last year when I sold it to a gun dealer. While my gun never misfired, the trigger had a reputation of firing while the safety was on. My gun was nearly 40 years old, and the 700 series had the problem for at least that long. Triggers are mechanical devices. They fail.
From that experience I learned that the safety is not reliable on any gun. I try to NEVER rely on a safety while a round is in the chamber. When in doubt, unload.
Many things can impact a safety, including only being partially on, bumps and bounces, wear and tear, adjustments, and the rest. Best to use them, but don't rely on them. Treat the gun as if it's loaded and safety off, always.
By the way, a few months a lawyer in (if I remember correctly) Nevada contacted me to act as an Expert Witness in an airgun lawsuit. (Me, an expert witness. Let's see, ex = has been, spurt = drip under pressure) Teenagers were being stupid, violated every gun safety rule in the book, and one got shot with a break barrel gun. The kid wanted to sue the manufacturer for not having a perfect safety. I declined to take the job as I'd have a really hard time getting over all the stupidity (long story, but suffice it to say they cocked and loaded the gun, the set it in the corner until someone that didn't know it was loaded fired it and hit someone else.) If he had his way and we demand perfect safety's, the gun will evolve to be a 9 part puzzle that has to be solved each time it's fired. Not going there if I can help it.
If something goes wrong with a safety, we should immediately service the gun. While I don't rely on safety's I do make sure they work as best as they are able.
The guns are our responsibility to service, care for, and keep SAFE! Shooting by it's nature carries risks that each of us must minimize by proper care, maintenance and safety practices.
Lastly and most importantly, did you contact the manufacturer for assistance after it fired? That's typically my first step when something goes wrong. If you didn't please do give the manufacturer the opportunity to service their product and return it to working order.
Triggers and safety's are delicate, and when adjusting, like the handbook says, always check. Heck, always check even if not adjusting.
As for the Firearms industry solving the problem, not so. Anyone familiar with the Remington 700 series rifles and related trigger issues? I owned a 700ADL till last year when I sold it to a gun dealer. While my gun never misfired, the trigger had a reputation of firing while the safety was on. My gun was nearly 40 years old, and the 700 series had the problem for at least that long. Triggers are mechanical devices. They fail.
From that experience I learned that the safety is not reliable on any gun. I try to NEVER rely on a safety while a round is in the chamber. When in doubt, unload.
Many things can impact a safety, including only being partially on, bumps and bounces, wear and tear, adjustments, and the rest. Best to use them, but don't rely on them. Treat the gun as if it's loaded and safety off, always.
By the way, a few months a lawyer in (if I remember correctly) Nevada contacted me to act as an Expert Witness in an airgun lawsuit. (Me, an expert witness. Let's see, ex = has been, spurt = drip under pressure) Teenagers were being stupid, violated every gun safety rule in the book, and one got shot with a break barrel gun. The kid wanted to sue the manufacturer for not having a perfect safety. I declined to take the job as I'd have a really hard time getting over all the stupidity (long story, but suffice it to say they cocked and loaded the gun, the set it in the corner until someone that didn't know it was loaded fired it and hit someone else.) If he had his way and we demand perfect safety's, the gun will evolve to be a 9 part puzzle that has to be solved each time it's fired. Not going there if I can help it.
If something goes wrong with a safety, we should immediately service the gun. While I don't rely on safety's I do make sure they work as best as they are able.
The guns are our responsibility to service, care for, and keep SAFE! Shooting by it's nature carries risks that each of us must minimize by proper care, maintenance and safety practices.
Lastly and most importantly, did you contact the manufacturer for assistance after it fired? That's typically my first step when something goes wrong. If you didn't please do give the manufacturer the opportunity to service their product and return it to working order.
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Great minds think alike, I just mentioned in another thread how safety's should prevent the sear for disengaging entirely (fully locking sear) and reinforce its engagement if anything (increase sear to hammer engagement force once safety engaged) ...its very easy to design and engineer this.
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Cross bolt trigger safety with an extended arm reaching up to lock a modified (AR-TYPE) hammer in place whether cocked or not. I get royalties! Yo!
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That'll do, quite a few ways to skin this cat and quite effectively without being overly complex to machine/integrate. A 'safe' condition shouldn't allow one to fire or cock the rifle if the rifle is in said condition prior to engagement, and with the most effective sear/safety design, you'll achieve exactly this.
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Wish this forum had had a big fat like button for the previous posts! Lots of ways to get it done...point is, let’s demand it gets done.
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Firing pin springs for firearms are relatively small compared to air gun hammer springs and more than one example of "problems " with firearms has been noted. Your sentiment in "wanting it done" is fine, but if it were so easy it would already be in practice. Not that it shouldn't be a goal by any means. I carry 1911 style pistols and sometimes carry them in the "cocked and locked" manner. The mechanism allows such to be safe. A hammer block for the air gun would be required to even approach the same level of safety and that seems to be a relatively complicated thing to accomplish in air gun design. Even with that, poppet failure has been mentioned as a cause of an air gun firing accidentally and even a hammer block safety would not prevent that. Ultimately, it seems that the best safety is the one between the ears.
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The FX trigger system is not like the firearm trigger you are used to you must look at the design and you will see that the rocker holds the 1st, 2nd and lower shear and safety rod is independent from the rocker, safety rod has a cut out for the rocker to pass through in fire position when the safety rod Is rotated to the section of the rod that doesn’t have cut out the rocker cant pass through to fire, now when adjustments is made to shorten the length of travel of the 1st stage screw or adjustment the weight/creep of the 2 stage will affect the engagement or release of the safety so there is a limitations of the trigger adjustment before rendering the safety useless. So on a new gun its a habit to test the trigger and safety before shooting ammo.
maybe the trigger was adjusted and failed to test the safety. During assembly in Sweden trigger and safety is tested when at FXUSA the trigger And safety also tested. Any safety can fail when drop in a proper angle. Seen to many accidents with AG and PB, for me I don’t used The safety —> I cock when ready to fire If I can’t shoot right away I de-cock thats just me!
Ernest
maybe the trigger was adjusted and failed to test the safety. During assembly in Sweden trigger and safety is tested when at FXUSA the trigger And safety also tested. Any safety can fail when drop in a proper angle. Seen to many accidents with AG and PB, for me I don’t used The safety —> I cock when ready to fire If I can’t shoot right away I de-cock thats just me!
Ernest
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I’m a little surprised no one has mentioned the safety on the EDGun R5/R5M series of PCPs. When engaged, the safety physically blocks the hammer from falling onto the firing pin. Pretty much about as safe as you can make an Airgun since it’s not trigger related.
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Good information. That is about as safe as possible with a PCP, it seems. Certainly can be done depending on the design of the rifle. It might be difficult in other designs, especially if not designed in from the start.
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So what size are the hammer springs in an air rifle? A Remington 700 has a firing pin spring from 24-28lbs. There is always a solution. Also I wanted to comment a bit on the brain being your best safety....you are 100% correct without debate. But that obvious to most all trained shooters and the shooters ability to safely handle a gun is not the topic of discussion here. Let me give you a senerio on why a manual safety is put on a gun in the first place.
Maybe someones son was trained to use an air rifle properly but while getting ready to shoot a squirrel off hand something scares him and he drops the rifle….cocked, pellet in chamber, on safety ( he did everything the right way)….and the gun goes off because the manual safety failed. No brain safety or trigger finger safety can control this situation.....a manual safety is designed to reduce this risk. The only thing a trigger finger can do after a situation like this is dial 911. We have to think abut all shooters, not just ourselves. If someone gets killed government regulation will happen, I don’t think anyone wants that, I certainly don’t ....we need to spot flaws and self regulate.
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