Airguns vs. gun-guns for teaching kids.

[AlwaysLastPlace]

Airsoft pistols and rifles. Realistic enough to teach gun safety and safer than air guns.

I appreciate your response any sort of pistol for youth I am not really comfortable with. If pistol was a discipline that my son could not get enough of, then fine but that needs to be a core focus of his young life and not just a fun hobby to run around and show me how good of a group he got today or how fast he has gotten on the dueling tree from prone.
Airsoft seems like Karate katas vs a BJJ tournament. There is no REAL inherent threat to property, life and limb if you make a mistake. Of course you COULD shoot an airsoft gun in your eyeball and lose it. But if you shoot my 24 foot lb (I can't remember exactly) Pneuma at my house, or even the brick wall around it, there will be damage. That has more than enough energy to find an artery, crack a skull, if not penetrate it. You'd have a hard time breaking a window with airsoft. I have an amazing $400 GBB Glock from the days when a real Glock cost that, and it was not legal to sell Glock's trademark on an airsoft gun. It took 5 months to get here from China (no ali express or wish at this time either) This thing shoots so hard you can't bring it to any indoor airsoft arena. So you'd think it would be a good analog for me to dry fire with, right? Unfortunately that isn't the case.
The slide is so light that if I dropped it it would break. The mags are fragile and accuracy is really bad compared to a walmart CO2 pistol. I am not teaching to draw from a nylon holster, ever, and the retention is not good enough in kydex.

Every little boy knows or should know the feeling of all the blood rushing out of their face and thinking "Oh my gosh my dad is going to KILL me." Probably all he did was get in a pushing contest in class that went too far, get a ticket to the principal's office and a pink slip sent home with him in his backpack for the first time. Handing a kid a tool that can actually kill commands some automatic respect and perspective of safety, if it doesn't then he is not a kid that should be learning this, at least not yet. That is my take on it, anyway.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

I prefer a single shot tray for teaching gun safety as well as a low powered gun.

The effect is not the goal but barrel safety, trigger discipline and sweeping training are key.

I like any well fit gun over an adult gun that the LOP is too long.

You are right, I will have to check LOP on the pneuma. I THINK it will be ok but I will check it. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

Airguns are great because you don't need to go to an actual range. Not that ranges don't have their place, but being limited to shooting off a bench doesn't give much of a chance to test gun handling.

For a while it is going to be prone or bench just because air rifles are heavier than a Nylon 66 or Cricket .22 and he is 9. Ranges are loud and distracting and he can't really handle that yet. "Not that ranges don't have their place" I feel the same way for just the same reasons.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

In red above -

You're kidding right ? You telling me a .22 pellet to the back of the head, or the heart, or the neck or...........
Can't KILL ?

In blue above -
Maybe...

In yellow above -
A .22 firearm, vs a non-muffled, or badly muffled pellet gun aren't THAT much different.

You DID...miss the lack of pellet gun recoil !

So now, How...much better is a pellet gun to tech with ?

Mike

IDK, brother, that is kind of the whole point, a .22 PCP is less dangerous if only because I don't have to take him anywhere there are idiots and range officers. My pellet guns are heavier than my .22LRs so they are slower to move. I can interrupt a screw up or he can correct it before it is completed. But you are correct. There is more than enough energy to find an artery or crack a skull.

It doesn't take long to demonstrate that the .30 PCP (diablo and subsonic) hits harder than the Browning Buckmark with 22lr subsonic suppressed.

He has hit rabbits with the .30 PCP and he has seen what me using .22lr subsonic, suppressed will do to a rabbit and there is no comparison. Like Humperdink's fired wizard (played by Billy Crystal) said, "There is dead and then there is mostly-dead." There is no mostly-dead with the .30 on small game, there is only F'd in the A.
There is also the report of expanding burnt cordite that has a different quality than an air rifle. Not to mention, I will smell crappy .22 ammo the same way other people can smell that someone in the neighborhood is BBQing. There is a difference.

I don't use anything that is "badly" anything. Actually that isn't true at the moment but I will be fixing it this weekend. I am having exactly as you mentioned a bad muff of a 0db on the .30. It is silent but I will be dam-d if I don't get at least one baffle strike every magazine.
Subsonic .22LR, in my own experience is not as accurate as .22 PCP. That said, I almost only use pistol for the subsonics.

My Delta Wolf in .30 has recoil. The recoil pisses me off too because I know I missed because of what I didn't do AFTER I pulled the trigger while the pellet was still in the barrel. Come to think of it, the Pneuma jumps more than the M&P 15-22 as well. The cricket .22lr does move more than any other .22LR that I have but not more than the DW .30 and that thing is 15lbs. lol

You make some fine points, friend, but you'll have to pardon me if I am not seeing how they move the needle on my decision making gauge of, "Am I taking anything away from my son's learning by teaching PCP instead of .22LR." I am kind of looking for an "Oh yeah, duh, I should have thought of that." moment from someone's comment. So far it seems that most are leaning toward teaching with PCP. We are on a airguns board so that might have been obvious, but I have a feeling most of us learned on real guns, right? Even though we may have had bb guns first we didn't learn the sport, or the love of it, until we got our hands on at least .22, you know?

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

Nope, and... How you got all that out of what I wrote is way beyond me...

Lack of ear protection makes it a heck of a lot easier to get a kid's attention when necessary. Not to mention that a BB is a lot less lethal than a bullet. More economical too. I use multipump BB guns and the kids love them. And we all take safety seriously.

Cheers,

J~

I have had the unfortunate experience of needing his attention and not being able to get it quickly enough. That was frightening. I gave him my fancy Comtacs and they kept sliding over his ear. I even tried putting those on a helmet because they put pressure inward but the Wendy suspension wouldn't go that small. lol.
It is unfortunately too late to get him onto bb guns he's already ringing a 4" plate at 100 from prone. He IS interested in using the slingshot/ wrist-rocket though because the beeman projectile is glass and that is reactive-ish when it hits but that is not exactly the same thing. You did just give me a great idea though. The projectiles for the slingshot/ wrist-rocket thing are about 1" that would be pretty btch'n if I could find a way to secure those to a target so he can hit them with the .22.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

I made an adjustable stock for my Prod for lessons with my grandkids. The oldest is the only one who's shot it and thought it was great. His dad was shooting a pistol nearby and he did not like that. Much too much noise. We did not have on hearing protection. But the little Prod was quiet enough he enjoyed it. I did not have the stock the right length for him but he could still see through the scope. I should have probably just removed it and let him shoot it as a pistol. For a more serious session I will adjust the stock for him. My grandkids are currently 8, 5, 4, and 2. I think only the oldest is old enough. I want them to be a little less silly and more capable of taking instruction before putting any gun in their hands.

I may do my demonstration with a 3/4 pine board with them before they shoot. Even my 177 will shoot through the board. A simple way to demonstrate they need to be careful. I think the risk of a pellet gun, especially a relatively low powered gun, is less than even a 22 lr but all guns need to be handled with respect and carefully following all the same rules. The damage the gun can do increases with fpe but even a 6 fpe gun is capable of causing damage and possibly even death.

My Prod has been retuned to about 18 fpe so it is hard for a grandkid to shoot. So I stayed with the first and will with the others. They hand it to me (with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction), I cock it and hand it back (also with the muzzle pointed safely). Any poor handling and the lesson will be over (without big lectures, just simple explanation provided calmly).

I will use a pcp instead of a 22lr or other PB because I have one I can adjust to their length of pull, it is quieter, and the risk is less. Not enough less that it can be handled differently, just a little more margin if they hit something they should not or shoot in a not totally safe direction. Rules are Rules but lower consequences are preferred. A 22 caliber PCP pellet traveling 750 fps or less is just not going to carry as far as a 22lr bullet or do as much damage when it hits something. I will not be surprised if one or more of them mis handles a gun or shoots in a direction they should not (especially the boys although my lovely grand daughter can be goofy sometimes). Best they learn on a less powerful gun.

Length of pull really is a concern. I will check when he gets home from school but I am not sure how I could adjust it on the gun I want him to learn on. I will have to give that some thought. There IS a butt pad on it maybe I can cut some rubber off of that.

 

[beerthief]

a gun is a gun it does not matter what the power is , a gun is a gun and should be treated EQUALLY the same . as far as teaching

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

They are in the eyes of the law. People still die in air gun accidents.

Hammers are used in more killings than guns and hammers aren't real guns. I will go to prison for 10 years if I am caught using .22lr on targets in my back yard. I think it is called megan's law. You'll get a felony and MAYBE some time if you have an ND inside city limits. But purposely setting up a shooting range for .22lr in city limits... I would get the book thrown at me. Air rifle, where I live, can only be shot on a legal range, however, a legal air rifle range is defined anywhere that has adult supervision and not breaking any other law. This is how I can shoot pellet guns in my back yard but not in the alley behind my house.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

I thought air rifles are real guns. If not, why not?

Air rifles, carbines and pistols are not guns in the US it is because the legislature and the BATFE say they are not bearable arms. Interesting point though, given that it's not the object but the person (in this case a shooter) who is dangerous. The federal gov't should be, and if they thought about it probably would be, more afraid of trying to legislate or infringe on access to air rifles than real guns. We have a right to real, bearable arms but we are used to the fight for that right at every level.
We DON'T have a right to Air Rifles but due to the love of the sport, by springer and bb gun shooters, and the often overwhelming cost barrier to entry in PCP, most Air Rifles have a right-good shooter behind them.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

I started my son with powder burners. Honestly, taking him to the range was a huge undertaking. Get everything cased up, make sure you have everything you need: ammo, mags, hearing protection, targets, etc., load everything into the car, get the kid ready, get him in the car, drive to the range, get everything out, set up a target, shoot for ten minutes, clean up the targets, load everything back into the car, go home, bring everything in the house, clean the guns, and put everything back away.

That's why we shoot a lot more airguns now. Grab a tin of pellets and rifle or two, go out in the backyard, shoot for half an hour, go back inside and put the rifles away.

Sometimes we shoot five or six times a week now instead of once every couple months. He learns a lot more about shooting and gun safety when we can shoot more.

And it is flipping hot outside. lol

 

[JimD]

This is the normal state of my Prod which I have used for one grandson and hope to use for all 4 of the grandkids. I will probably put the plastic pieces back on the grip and fore end but the key change will be the butt stock. My design is an aluminum tube with end plugs to provide threads. On the front it is a bolt to go into the gun (male threads) and on the butt plate end it is a female thread to hold the butt plate on. The aluminum tube in this picture is for my 14.75 inch LOP. I have another aluminum tube in several pieces that lets me go down to 11 or 12 inches. I could go shorter but would need to make up another aluminum tube. So my adjustable LOP is based upon my somewhat unique stock design.

Another more common way to do it would be to use a AR-15 style stock on an adapter. Some will go pretty short.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

I would say you are a lucky dad to be able to pass on your safe gun handling skills to your son. As you describe, your son has a natural aptitude, manipulation of arms is an across the board skill. It applies to the handling of “all” guns… So it seems you are on the right path… For me as an old man? Its all about “generation next”… Posts like yours help me keep my faith alive…

Hey, friend, that was a very nice thing to say. I think you'll like this story, last week we were shooting prone and I was spotting for him. He said, "I'm on." and instead of saying "send it." I said "Hold a half mil for wind." He didn't know what I meant because I had not taught him windage yet. He would have hit the 4" steel at 100y target either way but I want that shot in the middle. I told him to zoom out enough so that he could rest the gun at a roughly natural point of aim and open both eyes and still see the target. Then pick up some dirt and sprinkle it in the air next to you. Is the dirt near you blowing the same direction as the grass to the target and moving about the same speed? This blew his mind. He instantly realized that wind affected projectiles, that it could affect it in different directions on the same shot and that he had the ability to hit the target in any way he wanted regardless once he learned how. We had to take a break because he had the giggles for a minute, well, and that made me start laughing because we both knew all the things he just put together in his head. My wife was sitting in the car next to us thinking we were broken. He got on target again, put the gun back down and asked in the best way he could express it, something like, since the wind is only blowing half should the mil be half? It was a tailwind blowing almost exactly 45 degrees steady at about 7mph Right to Left. I told him yes, then he said, 'thats why you said hold half." I said yes. pretty proud moment for me. Then he got all serious and proceeded to ring that plate right in the middle.

 

[AlwaysLastPlace]

This is the normal state of my Prod which I have used for one grandson and hope to use for all 4 of the grandkids. I will probably put the plastic pieces back on the grip and fore end but the key change will be the butt stock. My design is an aluminum tube with end plugs to provide threads. On the front it is a bolt to go into the gun (male threads) and on the butt plate end it is a female thread to hold the butt plate on. The aluminum tube in this picture is for my 14.75 inch LOP. I have another aluminum tube in several pieces that lets me go down to 11 or 12 inches. I could go shorter but would need to make up another aluminum tube. So my adjustable LOP is based upon my somewhat unique stock design.

Another more common way to do it would be to use a AR-15 style stock on an adapter. Some will go pretty short.

View attachment 499646

That is clever and I like that it matches the nice wood you have.

 

[JimD]

The wood is from the stump of my "killing tree" that got root rot and fell over. A very large oak that I took a lot of squirrels out of. I was sad when it fell. I let a tree company clean up most of it but had them leave the stump and cut it out myself so I could salvage a little wood. Very highly figured oak with spalting in places. I do not have a piece big enough for the stock of my PCPs but two of them have nose pieces of this oak. The Prod stock was little enough it could come from this wood.

 

[Caliber 22]

Air rifles, carbines and pistols are not guns in the US it is because the legislature and the BATFE say they are not bearable arms. Interesting point though, given that it's not the object but the person (in this case a shooter) who is dangerous. The federal gov't should be, and if they thought about it probably would be, more afraid of trying to legislate or infringe on access to air rifles than real guns. We have a right to real, bearable arms but we are used to the fight for that right at every level.
We DON'T have a right to Air Rifles but due to the love of the sport, by springer and bb gun shooters, and the often overwhelming cost barrier to entry in PCP, most Air Rifles have a right-good shooter behind them.

I was not actually talking about what the legal definition of a gun is, that differ from country to country. According to some laws a big muzzle loader PB is also not classified as a gun like CF rifles.
I rather thought about what the practical use of it is. You use both for target shooting, hunting etc.ect... It is only the method of propulsion that differs. Power levels and fire rate overlap in some levels.

 

[steve123]

I'd start off with a very low powered pellet gun or BB gun because if a AD happens and someone or something gets hit the damage will be much less than a 22rf. Doing this also gives them a motivation to graduate to more powerful guns later as they acquire the proper gun handling skills.

All kids are different so each child will mature at a different pace which requires paying attention to any lack of the maturity to handle a gun safely.
For example my silly daughter has acted like a adult since her early teens, straight A's in school, stayed away from bad people and drugs, that type of person. She could handle a firearm safely at a young age.
I tried starting my youngest son on a 22rf youth model and I could be dead because I was distracted by our other boys for a split second and he pointed the gun at me even though I sternly warned him more than once not to make this mistake just a few minutes before. It was a year or more until I let him try a gun again but he had matured enough by then to handle it and had learned his lesson.

Backing up a bit concerning both of them I wish I had just bought them a cheap BB gun to start off with which I didn't do. That's how I started BTW.