altaros m24 most accurate factory airgun in the world

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First of all, I would like to thank Atom and other users for correcting the obvious bad information about our Altaros M24 airgun.

I would also like to congratulate Thomas Airgun for creating the perfect airgun and defeating .22LR users in their own competition. For several years now, I have argued that Airgun technology is currently better than the .22LR at all distances.

I beat .22LR myself a few years ago in my LR and ULR shoting discipline. It was easier here, because only by physical parameters I knew that our airgun and ammunition has a major technological advantage over .22LR which currently .22LR has no chance to change. These advantage is muzzle velocity consistency and a significantly higher ballistic coefficient. BC has the ability .22LR to get, for example, using the same CNC turned bullets. But I don't think so about consistency, as .22LR manufacturers have been trying for decades and the results have still not been achieved.

At a distance of 50m / yard, which is a type of shooting that I do not focus at all, it was necessary to combine the maximum accuracy for this distance and it is logical to use the same barrel from leading manufacturers as Lilja.
Personally here I see room for improvement only when using slugs with better BC and limiting even more wind. Here, however, the wind is not so crucial at this small distance because the cross wind speed of 7 km / h is only 5 mm and more than half of this wind is a good shooter able to estimate.

In any case, reducing this deviation to half by about 2.5 mm is a possible solution to gain another advantage of shooting with airgun at this distance compared to .22LR. Just use bullets with double BC which is not unbeatable problem for .22 caliber airgun.



I left the most burning question at the end. The most accurate airgun in the world? A simple question for someone, but a wiser person would find that without the use of definitions, this question cannot be answered.

My definition of the most accurate airgun in the world or any other rifle is this:

"The most accurate is a rifle that can hit a target with a higher percentage of probability than another at the greatest possible distance. "

But this is my definition, and everyone has a different definition.
Personally, I think it's best to add a few key words to the original question

The most accurate airgun in the world at a distance or range of distance.

This is a fundamental change to which we can already find answers in the world o firearm.



What is the most accurate rifle in the world for a distance of 200 yards benchrest? According to statistics, probably a rifle built on 6mmBR.
But is this rifle, which we have determined to be the most accurate in the world, able to withstand the King of 2 miles competition ? Definitely not. The determination of this rifle and the maximum accuracy is determined directly for one specific distance.

Conversely, the rifle that wins the King of 2 miles competition is obviously not the most accurate rifle in the world for 200m shooting, if it were, the shooters would use it in this competition as well.

It's the same with an airgun. Is the airgun from Thomas Airgun the most accurate airgun at 50 yards? According to current information, probably yes. It would be able to achieve the same results as the Altaros M24 with ATP slugs at 450-700 yards. According to available information no (muzzle velocity consistency, ballistic coefficient of slugs used).
Since I have not seen any similar video that would achieve similar accuracy as LR and ULR our shooting videos with M24. For this reason, I can say that according to current information, I can probably consider the Altaros M24 with ATP slugs to be the most accurate airgun system in the world over long distances + 300m .

So I'm not saying it's the most accurate air rifle in the world, but it's the most accurate from a distance where there are other, much more important parameters than whether the airgun is capable of firing 1/4, 1/2 or 1 MOA at 30-50-100 yards.

and I'm not saying it's an airgun itself, but a system because the M24 without our slugs is just another airgun in a number of others. Only together can I do what we show in the videos and slugs play a much bigger role here than the rifle itself.

This is just my opinion and I understand that everyone can set this definition differently.

As Thomas Airgun himself said, his only goal is a competition that he shoots himself. I have completely different goals. My goal is an airgun system designed for long distances, which under certain conditions is able to compete with ordinary hunting firearms rifles.








 
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How could you even compare 22 lr bullets to cnc turned bullets and of course they could be of a higher bc most of 22 lr are round nose and besides that they are probably ran at way tighter tolerance than even high end 22 lr bullets seems like comparing apples to oranges to me but I could be wrong
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I’ve always argued that PCP AG can be superior to .22 lr and that’s why I’ve been ridiculed by “experts”. The reason for this is the simple muzzle velocity consistency as stated by Ondrej. The problem was that the internal ballistic in PCP was based on diabolo pellets! Only a small number of enthusiastic people worked on slugs and improving internal ballistics ie valves and barrels for slugs. They are credited today with having slugs in free sale and PCP manufacturers are therefore forced to change the internal ballistics in my opinion still insufficient (low power and low efficiency) and I know that slugs with high BC will soon be available on which JSB factory and others manufacturers work.. So by changing the internal ballistics in PCP we easily win .22 lr, by changing the internal ballistics I consider efficient operation of the valve at high pressures with the required flow (and plenum)!
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I agree to certain degree but there is also some downsides on pcp vs 22lr.

1. most guns operate with heavy hammer opening valve that certainly cause alot of internal vibrations and can move your poi where as 22lr has relatively small mass hitting on rim and igniting primer.

2. Low pressure equals low acceleration that equals long barreltime and alot of extra expanding air at muzzle. Makes guns really hold sensitive where as in 22lr you get away with alot shorter barrel with 4-8x chamber pressure and alot less turbulant gasses at muzzle.

3. That extra air required to push high bc bullets from pcp certainly need to be redirected at muzzle

4. Pcp's are built like toys versus even cheap 22'lrs. This is mainly due pcp having hard time sticking with usable weight and manufacturers cant really make 15-25lb bench guns they wouldnt sell for mass market. Therefor easiest place to cut weight is straw like barrels with horrible harmonics and weak uppers only holding barrels with crubscrews instead of properly threaded thick barrels. Certainly not a problem for custom builds.

5. Wrong type chambers and bad fitting on bullets due lack of standardization of used ammo. Ideally you would like to have your chamber and throat cut to match your bullet you are going to use.

6. Lack of standardization on barrel sizes land/grooves and alot of time wrong twistrates to shoot anything close to bc values of 22lr










 
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The same argument has been put forth for a very long time. It goes like this. Pcps will beat Rimfire once we have a comparable projectile because we can control our velocity and keep velocity spreads very low. This is a myth. Everyone who has never spent any actual time trying to shoot a perfect BR card against unlimited Rimfire guys that have their act together says stuff like this. The myth is often supported by ballistic calculators.

Unfortunately….the reasons behind why this doesn’t pan out are difficult to understand, and even more difficult to explain. If I set my gun up to produce SD s of 1….I will have 2-5x more vertical spread on the target at 50y compared to a SD of 3-4. I have no doubt that someone will tell me that’s impossible. I can also set my gun up so slower shots land higher on the target at 50y and faster shots land lower. …sometimes dramatically. This is very hard for people to understand…especially academic types. Vertical dispersion is the most difficult element to get a handle on at 50y….but it’s not directly controlled by velocity. Velocity is a component of it, but it will not be tamed by consistent velocity alone.

Mike 





 
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Agree with everything Slugmaster just wrote above. That’s just a short list, though.

Mike
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Yeah its short list and there is plenty more things to it like you said. Getting pcp to shoot at level of best rimfires certainly isnt easy quest or cheap. If it would be only about Bc values and SD we defo would be there. I shoot 22cal with over 0.2BC values at 1000+fps with really small SD with external reg but oh boy I can tell you it wasnt grouping any better at 100m versus tikka t1x 22lr with match ammo.. prettymuch equal precision but heck alot easier to achieve with 22lr.
 
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The same argument has been put forth for a very long time. It goes like this. Pcps will beat Rimfire once we have a comparable projectile because we can control our velocity and keep velocity spreads very low. This is a myth. Everyone who has never spent any actual time trying to shoot a perfect BR card against unlimited Rimfire guys that have their act together says stuff like this. The myth is often supported by ballistic calculators.

Unfortunately….the reasons behind why this doesn’t pan out are difficult to understand, and even more difficult to explain. If I set my gun up to produce SD s of 1….I will have 2-5x more vertical spread on the target at 50y compared to a SD of 3-4. I have no doubt that someone will tell me that’s impossible. I can also set my gun up so slower shots land higher on the target at 50y and faster shots land lower. …sometimes dramatically. This is very hard for people to understand…especially academic types. Vertical dispersion is the most difficult element to get a handle on at 50y….but it’s not directly controlled by velocity. Velocity is a component of it, but it will not be tamed by consistent velocity alone.

Mike 




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Nice little lesson and mythbusting from a master.
 
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How could you even compare 22 lr bullets to cnc turned bullets and of course they could be of a higher bc most of 22 lr are round nose and besides that they are probably ran at way tighter tolerance than even high end 22 lr bullets seems like comparing apples to oranges to me but I could be wrong
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Why can't I compare the same piece of lead that is only made differently? It is not my fault ,that the .22LR manufacturers have not been able to bring any decent improvement over the last 50 years. The same lead CNC turning bullets I developed can also be used for .22LR, so yes I can and will compare them.

https://www.militaryairgun.com/domu/157-turned-lead-slugs-atp-smooth-552mm-22.html  these have a flatter nose than most .22LRs and yet have larger BCs even at lower weights. 

Longer projectile and pointed nose are suitable for 1400m, where bullets fly to the target below 34 degrees and where a normal short projectile would lose stability, as it is designed for shooting at small angles up to 10 degrees.



I agree to certain degree but there is also some downsides on pcp vs 22lr.

1. most guns operate with heavy hammer opening valve that certainly cause alot of internal vibrations and can move your poi where as 22lr has relatively small mass hitting on rim and igniting primer.

2. Low pressure equals low acceleration that equals long barreltime and alot of extra expanding air at muzzle. Makes guns really hold sensitive where as in 22lr you get away with alot shorter barrel with 4-8x chamber pressure and alot less turbulant gasses at muzzle.

3. That extra air required to push high bc bullets from pcp certainly need to be redirected at muzzle

4. Pcp's are built like toys versus even cheap 22'lrs. This is mainly due pcp having hard time sticking with usable weight and manufacturers cant really make 15-25lb bench guns they wouldnt sell for mass market. Therefor easiest place to cut weight is straw like barrels with horrible harmonics and weak uppers only holding barrels with crubscrews instead of properly threaded thick barrels. Certainly not a problem for custom builds.

5. Wrong type chambers and bad fitting on bullets due lack of standardization of used ammo. Ideally you would like to have your chamber and throat cut to match your bullet you are going to use.

6. Lack of standardization on barrel sizes land/grooves and alot of time wrong twistrates to shoot anything close to bc values of 22lr
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If we take the current and past PCP on the market, I would generally agree with these points as well.
If I partially apply it to airgun ( M24 ) and completely to the my future PCP project, which is in the prototype stage, then a lot of points have not been valid for a long time.

1) Oure M24 used hammer on the weight 12grams with a running length of 12mm.

2)Here you are right that the time in the barrel will be shorter for .22LR, but newer concepts reduce the difference. M24 minimizes this time diferenet to a minimum as i possible as it has no loss space between the valve and the bullets. As soon as the valve is opened, there is full pressure on the bullets. However, if we are talking about the same classification as the Thomas air gun, when the shooter practically does not touch the weapon, then it is not such a big problem as in classic shooting.

3) The slugs mentioned above with a little adjustment will probably get to BC 0.2, while for 50 yards shoting with a good SD ( about 1 fps ), even small speeds of 220-230 m / s are enough, which is only about 50J. I don't need a lot of air for this power and a suitable muzzle compensator will take care of the rest.

4) Yes, many PCPs are built this way. The current M24 series (cheap rifle up to 900-1000USD ) is a bit similar thanks to the plastic stock. The current form of the M24 airgun, which I used for my world record at 1400 yards, uses an almost inch barrel in a diameter of chrome mole steel and the attachment is through a thread with a lock nut, similar to the pattern of its firearms military M24. In addition, it is currently housed in a one-piece aluminum chassis.

5) You're right, a lot of manufacturers will only make a 45-degree ramp to the barrel, and that's it. I normally make the chamber between 1-2 degrees, for a smoother guiding the bullet into the barrel. In addition, for my special M24 with 60 grain, I use a hybrid design of the front part of the bullets, similarly to the Berger hybrid projectiles. This bullet shape help to guide the projectile correctly into the grooves of the barrel.

6) Yes you are also right. Especially FX manufacturer did the most nonsense about the twist, and it also put on the market an extremely large variety of barrels that are difficult to recognize, as they often differ only in date of manufacture or not in designation. For slugs manufacturers it's really hell.
Until most airgun manufacturers used the classic type of grooved barrel, such as CZ or Lothar Walther barrel as we use in the M24, this was not a problem. These barrels with a twist of 17.7 are the perfect compromise for the 28-33 grain slugs that we make. It is a compromise between sufficient stability to maintain high BC and at the same time does not try to over-stabilizing slugs to suffer accuracy. These barrels with our ATP slugs have BC 0.15- 0.18. I don't know that .22LR have better BC in this weight.

For us, standardization is not a problem, as we produce both airgun and airgun ammunition and we can produce any type of modified caliber compared to the "standard" with a step of 5 microns. I make the size adjustment in 5 seconds and then I get bigger or smaller slugs, as I need. It's that easy !

If I had half a year when I didn't have to run a company, but devoted myself purely to development, I would be able to du this PCP during that time.
U nfortunately ( or thank God ) I have to run a business, so it will take longer, but these innovation will come.



The same argument has been put forth for a very long time. It goes like this. Pcps will beat Rimfire once we have a comparable projectile because we can control our velocity and keep velocity spreads very low. This is a myth. Everyone who has never spent any actual time trying to shoot a perfect BR card against unlimited Rimfire guys that have their act together says stuff like this. The myth is often supported by ballistic calculators.

Unfortunately….the reasons behind why this doesn’t pan out are difficult to understand, and even more difficult to explain. If I set my gun up to produce SD s of 1….I will have 2-5x more vertical spread on the target at 50y compared to a SD of 3-4. I have no doubt that someone will tell me that’s impossible. I can also set my gun up so slower shots land higher on the target at 50y and faster shots land lower. …sometimes dramatically. This is very hard for people to understand…especially academic types. Vertical dispersion is the most difficult element to get a handle on at 50y….but it’s not directly controlled by velocity. Velocity is a component of it, but it will not be tamed by consistent velocity alone.

Mike 




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It would be appropriate to include some science in this statement.

We are talking about very short distances here and it is no coincidence why the .22LR is primarily fired at this distance. This distance .22LR can significantly forgive the fact that they have a bad SD at a slow speed.
The original intention of these competition was primarily to show the shooter's abilities and not to bring an element of chance into the race. SD and ES are exactly such an element of chance.
The difference between shooting at 50 and 100 is 4 times greater vertical deviation on the target for normal .22LR.

I have no reason not to believe you that with SD 4-5 you have a better shot than with SD 1. The reason is simple, the vertical error at 50 yards for SD 1fps is approximately 0.75mm ( MV 270 m/s). For SD 3 fps it is about 2.5mm. The difference in vertical error just by increasing the SD is therefore "large" 1.75mm. 

When I borrow one link to a target shot from your rifle



so it can be seen that the total vertical deviation is much larger and the difference of 1.75mm is lost in it.
On the contrary, the effort to achieve a low SD is often redeemed by the need to tune the rifle in that way that it has significantly higher air consumption, which will cause greater recoil and negative effects as described by SlugMaster.

Moreover, this change is often enough to change the harmonic oscillations of the barrel and this will again cause much larger deviations than the mentioned 1.75mm.

So yes, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that your statement is true, but it is appropriate to say the reason why it is so, or why it may be so.



For these reasons, I focus on distances, where these small differences, which are almost invisible at small distances, take on clear forms at greater distances.
If we take the same case, then the change from SD 1fps to SD 3fps on distanc 400m, then 1 fps will make a vertical deviation 68mm. On the other hand, 3 fps will already do 227mm . On the target, therefore, suddenly have a vertical deviation from the change in speed, enlarged by 6.2 inches, whereas previously for SD 1Fps the total deviation was only 2.7 inches. 

At 400m, 1 MOA is 4.6 inches, so changing SD to 3fps will add a vertical inaccuracy of 1.35 MOA.

on the 50yard the previously described case of changing SD from 1 to 3 fps worsens the vertical accuracy by only 0.13 MOA which is more than 10x less that on 400m.

I'm not saying that achieving the same PCP accuracy as a .22LR at these short distances is easy, but I show the reasons why SD at these distances doesn't have that much effect. But if you move longer distances, it is an essential element.

In addition, PCPs have the ability to improve the disadvantages described in points 1-6 as I described above. .22LR can also improve, but they have had decades of improvement, and I haven't seen anything major in that time, so I'm skeptical of major breakthroughs in a short amount of time.
 
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Yep my list wasnt really aimed at M24 since I havent hold one in my hands and seeing our inland market it such small I highly doubt I will ever get a change to do so. So I really cant describe how it shoots with operation system thats pretty unique and cant really judge its build quality. My list was mainly towarded on 99,99% of mass pcp market and as I said custombuilds can overcome alot of those issues but in many cases you need to sacrifice especially on weight department vs 22lr. Main issue tho is and will be low chamber pressure combined with alot of low pressure gas volume and its a big downside and will remain so as long as we cant operate at higher numbers and complex internal harmonics also combined with gas turbulant behaviour when circling around valve parts. 

P.S I would love to test some heavy 22 altaros slugs if you could make them in 224size and to 12" twist.
 
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If the Manufacturers of 22rf ammo would weigh each charge of powder, maybe the amount of primer compound, also weigh the cases, and the bullets, the ES could be reduced. BUT now we are talking about a dollar or more a loaded round, lol!

I shoot 22rf and slugs at longer distances and there is a HUGE difference with, say $6/50 ammo with not so good ES, and ammo over twice the price and half the ES, as well as tested to be more precise in a particular rifle.

I applaud Thomas Air, Altaros, and others, for spending the time and $$$$ to stretch the limits of what's possible with pcp's with slugs!

At some point I'd like to see a purpose built pcp repeater for long range target shooting, made to be stout to begin with(more stout than 95% available now), that uses single stack magazines and holds a ton of air!!! Like in the spirit of Scotchmo's custom .257 comes to mind somewhat but....
 
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7041F5AD-60CB-4204-8EA9-F9DD81251525.1638747836.jpeg
1shot 1kill , you are too much for me!
 
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I think this thread has gone to long...for a gun nobody has purchase yet .. not tested on the field ..not tested in competition.. not even a 10 meters match... so how in the world .. comes a claim of the most accurate gun.. because some random YouTube videos that most of them are horribly recorded..what a joke...finish the dam gun put it for sale...n let's see how that claim holds...thank you 
 
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I think this thread has gone to long...for a gun nobody has purchase yet .. not tested on the field ..not tested in competition.. not even a 10 meters match... so how in the world .. comes a claim of the most accurate gun.. because some random YouTube videos that most of them are horribly recorded..what a joke...finish the dam gun put it for sale...n let's see how that claim holds...thank you
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Gotta give you a plus 1 for that :) :) 
 
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WOW the Altaros M24 does not even exist , it is a prototype which has been marketed for what 3 years now ? but never released , I like Altaros products I used them for like 8 years , however the M-24 seemed like it was not what it said , hey anyone who actually can shoot long range can see the video did not seem to be what it said , Hey I hope it can come to retail market and do what it says before i am too old to read or shoot one lol .



Has anyone here ever shot what altaros I know they advertised for last 3 years ? and show videos which I saw did not look legit to me as I have shot well beyond 1 mile with real guns . I do not know how you guys can argue on how accurate a gun is when it does not exist .Believe half what you read and only what you test your self and can repeat test not just hit a target 1 time when you walking in shots ,

Hey1shot1kill  you seem a bit cocky to me , Can you explain the meaning of your screen name ? and tell us some of your accomplishments as at least centercut had won competitions with good shooters and doesn't act like he is king of 2 miles

LOU


 
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At some point I'd like to see a purpose built pcp repeater for long range target shooting, made to be stout to begin with(more stout than 95% available now), that uses single stack magazines and holds a ton of air!!! Like in the spirit of Scotchmo's custom .257 comes to mind somewhat but....
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You mean like this at the beginning of the video? lol



https://youtu.be/b_5_0l-O6V0?t=29

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Yep except something I can buy, LOL.
 
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I wish everyone a successful year 2022.



to Thomasair : I also wish you more and more other success.



steve123

If the Manufacturers of 22rf ammo would weigh each charge of powder, maybe the amount of primer compound, also weigh the cases, and the bullets, the ES could be reduced. BUT now we are talking about a dollar or more a loaded round, lol!
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I think the best brands already do som of this things , like Eley, where the price is 3 times higher than for our slugs.
The problem is that up to 30% of the speed of the .22LR will make a primer not the powder charge itself.
I have currently read that a voodoo .22LR rifle using these best bullets, have SD of around 7-8fps, which is already a very good result and these rifles achieve very good results over long distances.

As I wrote on another forum a while ago: Some people here talk about the prototype, but from the first video, I made others videos with 4 others rifles with different barrels, stock and even regulators. They only had a same system from M24, which is seen here in the form of a patent.
So I'm not saying anything about a lucky constellation of stars for one rifle, but at least 5 rifles, which can rule out a coincidence.



I understand that information from one source is suspicious. Personally I have similar opinion, because a lot of people on the Internet simply lie or don't tell the whole truth.

But what I fundamentally disagree with is the quality of the video. If you're waiting for a spoken video about the basics, you won't find it with me. I don't have time for that, maybe when they start making videos in my native language. ( nevertheless, I will soon publish one exception, which will not be primarily just only shooting but important information about airgun ELR shoting, which I have not seen anywhere in public yet )

On the contrary, show me similar better videos with maximum effort for transparency, ie an effort to clearly see the number of shots, the number of hits, the distance to the size of the target.

Many of the videos, I saw ,showed the shooter, but no longer a video from the scope cam, a video of the target from the camera located next to the shooter and, most importantly, they have a cuts between the shots.
It would be easy for me to make a video where there will be 20 hits in a row, wher I just cut out "hits" that were not suitable. But if I did, then you can be executed start saying bad things about video quality or lying.

That's why I have videos in one piece without editing, or I'll put a link to the whole original video.
Most people don't do this because it's not popular (people want to see a shot every second) and its simple easy make awesome shooting video, which, however it has nothing to do with reality.

There are also channels that seek similar transparency as RusBear and a few others.

At the end I finally add the promised video, where thanks to get 34mm ring for Side-Shot there is also a scope cam video:

https://youtu.be/bnSAhXgOjDk

After finishing the shooting, I found that I already had very little pressure in the bottle, so the regulator no longer worked on 100% ( the consistency was little bit worse) and you could see larger drop below the target.

The image quality of Arcan Optics is much better than on video. The image worsens the use of MOA Booster and Side-Shots



P.S. The first batch of M24 rifles was already shipped across Europe in the last week before Christmas
 
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