AMP Regulator is creepy..

MACTEN

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Nov 18, 2020
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Been looking at others saying that AMP reg is a creeper and have found fixes etc. But why? Is it a poor design or just not as finished as say a Huma or Altaros or Lane reg? I know these regulators can creep as well but it seems inherent to the AMP. Also I don't decrease reg pressure with air in it just raise it.
I plan to smooth it up and see if I can stop the creep.
This AMP is in a Dreamline btw..
 
As you said, the creeping symptom is chiefly a result of the surface finish of the seat. If the end of the piston has taken on anything more than a slight dimple, or has tiny debris pinched into it, or has faint scratches or machining marks visible with a magnifying glass or loupe, it needs to be dressed clean and flat and smooth.

Using good lighting and magnification, also check the orifice to which the piston meets. Granted it's rare to find a problem there but you'll be chasing your tail if there is.

Bear in mind all regulators will eventually develop creep as the seat wears from being cycled many thousands of times. Additionally, there is a compromise between early performance and long term durability that designers have to weigh. For example a somewhat soft seat material like nylon will iron in quickly to the orifice and work very nicely right away, which creates a positive first impression. However it will also wear out and need servicing more quickly than a hard material.

Conversely a hard material like PEEK may creep for a while when new, which of course creates a negative first impression. But then once it has broken in, works great and lasts a long time.

To get the best of both worlds, one can use a hard plastic and spend the time to bring both surfaces up to a very high quality finish. That way it won't creep in the early going and it will last a long, long time. So why don't we see more manufacturer's doing this? Because achieving this level of finish consistently in a production setting is time consuming and costly and prone to QC issues.

The FX piston is Delrin (or at least is commonly thought to be) which a material with properties in between the two examples I listed above. Other things being equal, it is a good material for a regulator's valve seat. However it may not be so good for making the entire piston because it is it has a linear coefficient of thermal expansion over 5x greater than the regulator body, which means the output pressure will change with temperature. And perhaps some other subtle effects arising out of using a slightly compressible/flexible material in an assembly whose whole purpose in life is to go from passing air molecules -> blocking air molecules when a particular pressure is reached.
 
As you said, the creeping symptom is chiefly a result of the surface finish of the seat. If the end of the piston has taken on anything more than a slight dimple, or has tiny debris pinched into it, or has faint scratches or machining marks visible with a magnifying glass or loupe, it needs to be dressed clean and flat and smooth.

Using good lighting and magnification, also check the orifice to which the piston meets. Granted it's rare to find a problem there but you'll be chasing your tail if there is.

Bear in mind all regulators will eventually develop creep as the seat wears from being cycled many thousands of times. Additionally, there is a compromise between early performance and long term durability that designers have to weigh. For example a somewhat soft seat material like nylon will iron in quickly to the orifice and work very nicely right away, which creates a positive first impression. However it will also wear out and need servicing more quickly than a hard material.

Conversely a hard material like PEEK may creep for a while when new, which of course creates a negative first impression. But then once it has broken in, works great and lasts a long time.

To get the best of both worlds, one can use a hard plastic and spend the time to bring both surfaces up to a very high quality finish. That way it won't creep in the early going and it will last a long, long time. So why don't we see more manufacturer's doing this? Because achieving this level of finish consistently in a production setting is time consuming and costly and prone to QC issues.

The FX piston is Delrin (or at least is commonly thought to be) which a material with properties in between the two examples I listed above. Other things being equal, it is a good material for a regulator's valve seat. However it may not be so good for making the entire piston because it is it has a linear coefficient of thermal expansion over 5x greater than the regulator body, which means the output pressure will change with temperature. And perhaps some other subtle effects arising out of using a slightly compressible/flexible material in an assembly whose whole purpose in life is to go from passing air molecules -> blocking air molecules when a particular pressure is reached.
A lot of good information there! I know what delrin, peek and nylon are.. Does anyone make a peek piston for the AMP found in the Dreamline? I sold my lathe back in 13 and haven't had one since. I also never worked with peek but worked with delrin quite a bit. As per your suggestion I will dress the mating surfaces when I get a chance and go again, but knowing weather a better polymer material is available before I start may lead to a more productive polishing session.
 
The best route would be to replace it with one of the new brass pistons if possible:

AGN member Mubhaur made his own brass piston and installed a PEEK stub for the seat.

I mention that because some guys reported the new FX pistons were a little too long and needed the Delrin seat material trimmed back a little, and that might be sufficient motivation to just pluck it out and replace it with PEEK.
 
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I’ve never abused the reg in my Dreamtac but it creeps a little. First shot might be 10-20 fps slow if the gun sits for quite a while. All of my guns that have reg gauges experience some creep after the guns sit. Two of the guns have what is probably the best pistons available in them. A small amount of creep I almost consider natural and you can easily tune around it with most guns. I also found that digital gauges snitching on plenum pressure will just drive an OCD guy nuts. If your creep is bad, clean up the piston and seat then see what happens.
 
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The best route would be to replace it with one of the new brass pistons if possible:

AGN member Mubhaur made his own brass piston and installed a PEEK stub for the seat.

I mention that because some guys reported the new FX pistons were a little too long and needed the Delrin seat material trimmed back a little, and that might be sufficient motivation to just pluck it out and replace it with PEEK.
Mine is new enough it may already have a brass piston.. Haven't had it apart yet. I may have to look into peek.
 
I’ve never abused the reg in my Dreamtac but it creeps a little. First shot might be 10-20 fps slow if the gun sits for quite a while. All of my guns that have reg gauges experience some creep after the guns sit. Two of the guns have what is probably the best pistons available in them. A small amount of creep I almost consider natural and you can easily tune around it with most guns. I also found that digital gauges snitching on plenum pressure will just drive an OCD guy nuts. If your creep is bad, clean up the piston and seat then see what happens.
I can watch mine creep within minutes on the Dreamline. I sent off for some microfiber sanding cloth and will clean it up when it gets here.
 
Yeah, that’s not good. I personally have never found the AMP reg to be as horrible as some make it out to be. I’ve had a backup Huma Impact reg sitting in its package for years. Never felt the need to install it. Dress yours up but don’t get crazy. If it still won’t hold just rebuild it with new factory stuff and lightly dress it before you install it and you’ll be fine.
 
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Yeah, that’s not good. I personally have never found the AMP reg to be as horrible as some make it out to be. I’ve had a backup Huma Impact reg sitting in its package for years. Never felt the need to install it. Dress yours up but don’t get crazy. If it still won’t hold just rebuild it with new factory stuff and lightly dress it before you install it and you’ll be fine.
Do you happen to know if the Huma replacement for the AMP is externally adjustable in case I want to go that way?
 
I don’t believe you can adjust down under pressure and with an Impact, I don’t think you can degas the plenum with a Huma. With an Impact generally not being a set it and forget it gun, this was not appealing. When I adjust down with an AMP, I don’t do 1/4 turn then dry fire. I do maybe 1/8 or less turns and dry fire.
Yes you can adjust down under pressure with an impact with an AMP. Can do what you describe at the end of your post.
 
If you compare a owner off a impact, to a owner of a gun wich require dissasembly to adjust, it is probably more likely the impact will be adjusted several times as many, because it is so much easier to do. That will probably lead to the reg wearing out faster also.
My Huben is externally adjustable and hasn't crept yet even though I adjust it every time i shoot different ammo.