Anybody molding their own pellets?

I cast in .25 , 30 , and .35 cal diabalo pellets alonf with .172, .223, .257, 308, & 40 cal bullets. It makes shooting so much lower in cost and adds another dimension to the shooting hobby that I really enjoy. Like Wayne I haven't bought pellets in a few years, yet have a stock pile of cast projectiles and more raw material.

I'm so deep into making my own that I look at molds before buying a gun.....lol

Why can’t you take the Chinese product to a CNBC shop and get some made in the good old USA



that is what the Chinese do for almost all other products

I agree with you 110%. That's what I said earlier in this thread. It would be one of the rare occasions where the American manufacturer could undercut the Chinese manufacturer, and STILL make a good profit. Once you have the program saved into the CAD you can repeat it over and over again. 

However, in order to make proper pellets, they really do need to be swagged, not cast. So the mold would ideally be a swagging kit, not just a casting mold. 
 
Since the topic is moving towards manufacturing I would like to add some of my experiences. 

It's not easy.......

Anyone can machine a split swaging die set with a decent VMC machine and good tools. I have experience of machining similar swaging dies for diabolo pellets. The issues are as follows

1. How do we measure?

When you say the diabolo profile on a split die, you have to have them exactly the same. Mirror image to be specific. Unlike aluminum casting molds where a small variance makes no big difference in swaging die you get a parting line or (angel pellets (https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/jsb-qc-blunder/ )) if the pieces are not aligned. That's where the measuring part comes in. How do you measure the diabolo profile? Is the head oval or circular? You cannot use vernier calipers, depth gauges, or any other measuring instrument. (we are talking about 0.01 mm ) We have to use CMM and its expensive. So that's the measuring complication, until you machine, swage the pellets, you won't know what diameter of pellet is, and by this time there is no going back, you've machined 98% of the blocks. 

1589434931_10848122475ebcda336a2251.55719091.JPG


2. How do we check for inconsistency?

The issue is the material. Ideally, tool steel is in the annealed form at hardness 16 to 20 HRC. Aluminum molding dies can be easily cut but Tool steel... It's a different story. Steel provides resistance and the composition alloys erode the edges of the cutting tool, no matter how high end your end mill might be it won't last long. If the tool wears out prematurely you wont be able to see it but the variation it will create will be catastrophic. So its ideal to introduce a fresh cutting tool for each side (unless you run a separate finishing tool: If you trust the zeroing method of your machine) That brings me to the third point. (Endmill is between 1 to 3 mm in diameter.)

3. Work holding

Ideally, each block is clamped to the machine bed. It is aligned individually and the zero is set individually (part location), The variables are huge, you cannot use a jig to do so, you will have to locate the part every time because we are talking of offsets no greater than 3 microns. So that's tedious, your block must be zero, your tool must be dialed in for run out and this is repeated every single time so 2x for each die set. That's where the error occurs. It takes hours to get one piece right. Because If something is off at this stage you may not be able to correct it later. 

4. Other processes- Surface Grinding, Dowel guides, Hardening, etc, presents new challenges at every interval. Because if something goes wrong at any stage, there is no going back. Variables everywhere



Making these dies require a lot of devotion and time, It's possible to do it but mass manufacturing.... That's not possible. It's not productive

Making something in the USA is great if it's efficient and productive. Let's say you have a small VMC machine named MAK, MAK uses the Carbide tool of 2mm diameter, MAK has 1 ft x 1 ft machine bed. You have 12 hours per day. you have 2 options either machine a swaging die set or make a Jig and machine casting molds. if you machine swaging dies you will barely make 3 sets in a day (if everything goes well), but with a jig, you can make over 30 sets of casting molds over the same period of time, and this is where everything makes sense. So the swaging tools are expensive (because of the losses involved) and casting molds are cheaper. So making a profit off them is not feasible in the long run. Manufacturers like JSB don't have to worry, they make 1 die set and run a batch of at least 1,00,000 pellets hence its easy to get production of pellets from 1 die set but producing 1000's die-set's is not that great.  And pellets are cheap, you get 1 free for buying 3 tins. 
 
Since the topic is moving towards manufacturing I would like to add some of my experiences. 

It's not easy.......

Anyone can machine a split swaging die set with a decent VMC machine and good tools. I have experience of machining similar swaging dies for diabolo pellets. The issues are as follows

1. How do we measure?

When you say the diabolo profile on a split die, you have to have them exactly the same. Mirror image to be specific. Unlike aluminum casting molds where a small variance makes no big difference in swaging die you get a parting line or (angel pellets (https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/jsb-qc-blunder/ )) if the pieces are not aligned. That's where the measuring part comes in. How do you measure the diabolo profile? Is the head oval or circular? You cannot use vernier calipers, depth gauges, or any other measuring instrument. (we are talking about 0.01 mm ) We have to use CMM and its expensive. So that's the measuring complication, until you machine, swage the pellets, you won't know what diameter of pellet is, and by this time there is no going back, you've machined 98% of the blocks. 

1589434931_10848122475ebcda336a2251.55719091.JPG


2. How do we check for inconsistency?

The issue is the material. Ideally, tool steel is in the annealed form at hardness 16 to 20 HRC. Aluminum molding dies can be easily cut but Tool steel... It's a different story. Steel provides resistance and the composition alloys erode the edges of the cutting tool, no matter how high end your end mill might be it won't last long. If the tool wears out prematurely you wont be able to see it but the variation it will create will be catastrophic. So its ideal to introduce a fresh cutting tool for each side (unless you run a separate finishing tool: If you trust the zeroing method of your machine) That brings me to the third point. (Endmill is between 1 to 3 mm in diameter.)

3. Work holding

Ideally, each block is clamped to the machine bed. It is aligned individually and the zero is set individually (part location), The variables are huge, you cannot use a jig to do so, you will have to locate the part every time because we are talking of offsets no greater than 3 microns. So that's tedious, your block must be zero, your tool must be dialed in for run out and this is repeated every single time so 2x for each die set. That's where the error occurs. It takes hours to get one piece right. Because If something is off at this stage you may not be able to correct it later. 

4. Other processes- Surface Grinding, Dowel guides, Hardening, etc, presents new challenges at every interval. Because if something goes wrong at any stage, there is no going back. Variables everywhere



Making these dies require a lot of devotion and time, It's possible to do it but mass manufacturing.... That's not possible. It's not productive

Making something in the USA is great if it's efficient and productive. Let's say you have a small VMC machine named MAK, MAK uses the Carbide tool of 2mm diameter, MAK has 1 ft x 1 ft machine bed. You have 12 hours per day. you have 2 options either machine a swaging die set or make a Jig and machine casting molds. if you machine swaging dies you will barely make 3 sets in a day (if everything goes well), but with a jig, you can make over 30 sets of casting molds over the same period of time, and this is where everything makes sense. So the swaging tools are expensive (because of the losses involved) and casting molds are cheaper. So making a profit off them is not feasible in the long run. Manufacturers like JSB don't have to worry, they make 1 die set and run a batch of at least 1,00,000 pellets hence its easy to get production of pellets from 1 die set but producing 1000's die-set's is not that great.  And pellets are cheap, you get 1 free for buying 3 tins.


Thanks for the detailed explanation. Why is it that some molds for bullets can sell in the $20-30 range with handles, but pellet molds are over $100 and without handles? If they are all cut with CNC the size really shouldn't matter should it? If it's a #'s game I bet if you could buy the pellet mold for even $50 with handles a lot more guys would buy them just to try.

That's my whole reason for not trying. I don't want to spend $150 to find neither of my two .22's like the pellets.
 
Your $20-$30 molds, are those Lee molds?

NOE's mold prices are right inline with any of the other mold makers, excempt Lee and they are the low cost producer, but their tools also reflect that. Not bad or good....just you get what you pay for kind of deal.

The pellets molds that NOE makes come with a set of core pins that can be changed to make different weight pellets. The core pins, the retainers and the added work to add them to the mold does increase the cost, but NOE has the same price for bullet molds that have HP core pins with them.

<a href="https://imgur.com/52L2DEi"><img src="" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/EeYVuje"><img src="" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/B8WVyxq"><img src="" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/zpL6Bi3"><img src="" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>




 
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I haven't bought any pellets or slugs for over two years now because casting them is much cheaper, it don't take long for the molds to pay for themselves.





OK, guessing you're the Wayne the 2 guys above are talking about. If so, do you use the 217-20 mold? That's the one I was thinking about as it should be close in ballistics to the 18.1JSB.

Also wondering how tedious it is getting pellets without defects. You ever mold jigs? The 19 grain is just a bit smaller then a 1/32oz jig and I did plenty of those. And that's with pouring around a hook.


That mold you're talking about has probably paid for itself five times over now, that's exactly what mold is on my handles at the moment however I'm going to switch over to the BBT's again because I'm starting to run low on those now, I did manage to get about a thousand of the .22 Hunter pellets cast which will last quite a while, I really like shooting them in my ATI Liberty a lot as well as my ATI Freedom. Those wad cutters are awesome in the .22 Crosman's like my Crosman 150's love them.
 
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However, in order to make proper pellets, they really do need to be swagged, not cast. So the mold would ideally be a swagging kit, not just a casting mold.

Wayne those look like perfectly "proper" pellets and they are cast!

Funny how people who have never cast a bullet or a pellet think the only good way to make them is to swage them.

Some beautiful .35 cal cast pellets.








 
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So casting I get, molten lead poured into a mold. With swaging, what is the lead source/type and where do you get it?
Typically it’s lead wire.


-Marty
 
2nd post. I had a single shot heavy barrel 7.62x39 rifle made up by a guy in east Tennessee who cast his own 300 BO bullets in the early days of 300BO. He was in on the ground floor of powder coating cast bullets too.

If air gunners are going to blow open 50 yrd Benchrest won't it be on the backs of pellet designer/casters as much as it will be on the backs of folks like Thomas Rifles. Because I am a Noob I am wondering why cast skirted pellets at all? Slugs to my non physics mind seem the way to go in accuracy to eliminate wobble, etc. And won't casting pellets require an understanding of how to cast lead "alloy" pellets rather than nearly pure lead pellets.

I may be showing my gross ignorance and if so I apologize. I am pulling for someone to design, produce pellets for rifles that shoot so well in 50yrd benchrest that no one would even consider using .22lr again. Sorry, old man fantasies....
 
For years I am eyeing the pellet molds, but one single question hold me back buying any... if I eliminated 90% off the shelf pellets and never buy again - the pellet mold would be a clone of which one? Shall I buy 5 or 10 molds again and start eliminating until keep only the one that performs as expected?
Naaah, just shoot off the shelf and shoot a ton of it... :)