Are hollow point pellets really needed?

[shambozzie]

Been pesting/hunting a long time and never used anything but domes. Dead is dead. Its all about shot placement. If the pellet , no matter what caliber hit the sweet spot, bingo. First it was crosman brown box and now jsb all in doom and no problem.

 

[MEC17670]

I total agree with you. 

You took the words right out of my mouth. Dead is dead, it's all about a well place shot, not marketing.

 

[Norcal]

The inexpensive .22 Daisy PrecisionMax Hollowpoints shoot accurately to 50-60 yards out of my Xisico Sentry 705 HC so that's what I use on Ground Squirrels, Eurasian Doves, etc. They are made from softer lead and have a huge HP cavity so expand/dump energy well. At a savings of $10+ per tin over JSB Domes, it's a no-brainer.

 

[N2 Shooter]

With that said. I have had significantly better terminal performance using my Benjamin Bulldog .357 with 81gr Polymags @ 950fps in ground hogs under 110 yards than with 142gr NSA HP BT slugs @ 800fps. The extra weight of the slug simply zips straight through the groundhogs with broadside shots at those ranges, not forcing the animal to distribute that +215fpe. With the Polymags, the round expands significantly, and has never has a pass through from my slightly tweaked Benjamin Bulldog .357 on the groundhogs.

Comparing these two projectiles at the 110 yard distance, the NSA slug arrives carrying over 2x the energy (172fpe vs 82fpe). It’s interesting that the Polymag is more effective at putting down a groundhog considering the NSA slug would only need to dissipate half its energy to produce as much tissue damage as the Polymag dissipating 100% of its energy.

I think the deciding factor in this equation, is the speed the slug is traveling vs the Polymag. The Polymag design was made primarily for smaller game, and the lighter weight leads to higher velocities which allow greater round expansion. At 800fps, the NSA 142gr slug just isn't flying fast enough to expand as much. Additionally, this round was designed for larger game where a deeper penetration is necessary to get to the vitals. All in all, it takes more velocity to get these slugs to expand due to the design.

So is it the Polymags expansion that leads to DRT (Dead Right There) shots, or is it the Polymag energy dump that assist in additional terminal damage from the round not passing all the way through? This I am not certain, though I think both cases are viable.

I have had greater results shooting the NSA 110gr HP slugs .358cal at 900fps. They go all the way through from a front to back shot, put they barely make it through with a broadside shot on 15 pound groundhog.

 

[nervoustrig]

I agree, it's quite possible the NSA needs a considerably higher terminal velocity to expand to any meaningful extent. It's worth noting that despite the NSA having a considerably lower muzzle velocity, it arrives at the groundhog at 110 yards going about 10% faster than the Polymag. 740fps versus 674fps per the published BCs. So yes that implies the Polymag's geometry and/or alloy is much better at expanding.

It's pretty cool you're getting the kind of accuracy you need for a 100+ yard shot. I've never had much luck with them in the .25 or .22 past about 50 yards but I've never used the larger calibers.

 

[airgun_hack]

But do they really expand in small game at airgun velocity? 

Most of my shots pass through.

First shot at a pigeon 30 yds away. Caught in its wing

 

[MEC17670]

But do they really expand in small game at airgun velocity? 

Most of my shots pass through.

First shot at a pigeon 30 yds away. Caught in its wing

You hit a bone in the wing, looks like it helped start the expansion.

Can I ask what ftlbs your shooting ? Another question , hows the accuracy at 50 yards with a slight breeze?

I just posed a question for discussion. Seems to have done just what I intended. 

If your happy with hollow point pellet, use it.

I don't think to many bench rest guys use a hollow point pellets. Pellets that is, slugs are different animal. 

Cheers

 

[N2 Shooter]

I agree, it's quite possible the NSA needs a considerably higher terminal velocity to expand to any meaningful extent. It's worth noting that despite the NSA having a considerably lower muzzle velocity, it arrives at the groundhog at 110 yards going about 10% faster than the Polymag. 740fps versus 674fps per the published BCs. So yes that implies the Polymag's geometry and/or alloy is much better at expanding.

It's pretty cool you're getting the kind of accuracy you need for a 100+ yard shot. I've never had much luck with them in the .25 or .22 past about 50 yards but I've never used the larger calibers.

Yeah, they are my most accurate round out of my Bulldog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4mo_p1tPXs

 

[LostinTejas]

A double edged sword. HP may expand depending on several things, but they will hit like a large meplat, crushing tissue instead of moving it out of the way.

Domed are great when you need extra penetration, so weight what you need and use what you shoot well.

 

[MEC17670]

Agreed!

Match your projectiles to what your hunting.

 

[MEC17670]

Thank you, nice assessment!

 

[MEC17670]

Some of the hollow point pellets expand quite nicely. You just need to shoot them the right speed for that to happen and each off them has that special speed where they expand nicely and don't fragment into a bunch of pieces. It's very difficult to hit that speed and have an accurate shooting gun as well.

Like nervoustrig says it's a rare combination to get the hollow points to expand at the distance you want. Not only that but we need them to expand at the velocity we want also and then be accurate all at the same time. I have as yet not had much luck getting this trio of requirements all to happen in harmony in any useful way. Not that i have not tried.

I really do think that I will get it some day but with the pellet situation we have going on now it is not likely to be anytime soon.

The Crosman Hollow points are way to hard to expand in any useful manner at any speed I have seen them tested at. They have not been accurate in anything I have shot them in over twenty yards either.



Oh, and in answering your question no hollow point pellets are not needed but they can be useful in some situations.

You know you might have something there, it would be nice if the manufacturer would give range and velocity where good expansion can be found.

 

[Hoghunter11]

Not for small game. Only large game or long shots 

 

[BackStop]

So far I have never found a HP that shoots accurately out of any of the .177 air rifles I have owned at ANY distance. With the exception of the 10.5 Crosman Piranhas and they were/are only accurate at lower velocities (<750fps). And at those velocities I doubt they are expanding much, if any. However, I will use ANY pellet for pesting AS LONG AS IT IS ACCURATE! In testing the Piranhas with the Nova Vista Freedoms (back when they worked) the Piranhas weren't as good for accuracy as the CPUM 10.5 pellets, but not really bad and I suspect that if I had lowered the velocity back then, they would have been just fine.

Note that my longest pesting distance is ~60 yards and my usual pest targets are from 15 to 35 yards (basically my PBR) with a few rare shots between 35 and 60 yards.

Never found ANY pellet under 10 grains that shot well for me either although I read all the time about other folks who shoot lighter pellets with GREAT accuracy, even at longer distances! Oh well... (smile)

 

[qball]

So far I have never found a HP that shoots accurately out of any of the .177 air rifles I have owned at ANY distance. With the exception of the 10.5 Crosman Piranhas and they were/are only accurate at lower velocities (<750fps). And at those velocities I doubt they are expanding much, if any. However, I will use ANY pellet for pesting AS LONG AS IT IS ACCURATE! In testing the Piranhas with the Nova Vista Freedoms (back when they worked) the Piranhas weren't as good for accuracy as the CPUM 10.5 pellets, but not really bad and I suspect that if I had lowered the velocity back then, they would have been just fine.

Note that my longest pesting distance is ~60 yards and my usual pest targets are from 15 to 35 yards (basically my PBR) with a few rare shots between 35 and 60 yards.

Never found ANY pellet under 10 grains that shot well for me either although I read all the time about other folks who shoot lighter pellets with GREAT accuracy, even at longer distances! Oh well... (smile)

It really depends on the distance and condition but what you said about 10 grain or less pellets don't do well consistently pass 30 yard is a very fair assessment. I have however made clean kills with crosman pointed pellets at 50 yards provided there is little to no wind. I found JSB hades very accurate out to 60 yards which is about as far as I shot them. Maybe it's your gun/barrel but 7.9 CPHP and 7.4 crosman pointed both have been very accurate in my FX, crosman and PP700 at 20-34 yard distance I shoot at with pointed being slightly better at 34 yards. 

Not all hollowpoints are created equal, I would only use hollow point pellets if I know I can make the shot. Hades has been my go to hollowpoint larger pest/squirrel pellet, even though they don't seem to expand at my lowly 600FPS speed but the results are dramatically better compared to the pointed or domed pellets. They seem to tumble and just drop even the large fox squirrels around here that get to over 2lbs. With crosman pellets I would only take head shots but with hades I have no problem taking vital shots and have the confidence that it will drop them as long as I produce about 7 FPE on impact. 

 

[OldSpook]

I agree, it's quite possible the NSA needs a considerably higher terminal velocity to expand to any meaningful extent. It's worth noting that despite the NSA having a considerably lower muzzle velocity, it arrives at the groundhog at 110 yards going about 10% faster than the Polymag. 740fps versus 674fps per the published BCs. So yes that implies the Polymag's geometry and/or alloy is much better at expanding.

It's pretty cool you're getting the kind of accuracy you need for a 100+ yard shot. I've never had much luck with them in the .25 or .22 past about 50 yards but I've never used the larger calibers.

Yeah, they are my most accurate round out of my Bulldog.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4mo_p1tPXs

Just at the last second .... varoom ... here comes a car ... Good shot though. Most states prohibit shooting across public roads?

 

[walter3rd]

I don’t think pellet type matters as much as accuracy. If it’s a well placed shot most pellets workroom pretty good. I use round Diablo type 

 

[N2 Shooter]

I agree, it's quite possible the NSA needs a considerably higher terminal velocity to expand to any meaningful extent. It's worth noting that despite the NSA having a considerably lower muzzle velocity, it arrives at the groundhog at 110 yards going about 10% faster than the Polymag. 740fps versus 674fps per the published BCs. So yes that implies the Polymag's geometry and/or alloy is much better at expanding.

It's pretty cool you're getting the kind of accuracy you need for a 100+ yard shot. I've never had much luck with them in the .25 or .22 past about 50 yards but I've never used the larger calibers.

Yeah, they are my most accurate round out of my Bulldog.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4mo_p1tPXs

Just at the last second .... varoom ... here comes a car ... Good shot though. Most states prohibit shooting across public roads?

All states prohibit shooting across public roads to my knowledge. A quick gander at the YouTube description informs you that this is an access road on a private business after hours as I sit with the business owner.

 

[OldSpook]

Well you see the YouBoob description isn't available UNLESS one actually goes to YouNoob to watch the video.

Thanks for your kind reply.

 

[rodwha]

Quite interesting! Seems it works on a similar principle as Hornady’s Critical Defense ammo. I wonder if it would help if the velocity is low. Thanks for sharing!