Its 100% the shooter. FT killzones are 2-4 MOA. Almost every gun out there can handle that. It comes down to the shooter.
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Are we doing hunter class wrong?
- Thread starter scotton
- Start date
It is pretty intimidating to a new shooter to show up to a match and every rig be a $2k rifle and $1k scope. It is a game that is mostly the shooter, but it does not appear that way from the outside. I still think hunter class should be closer to UK HFT rules. I don't even remember how to shoot a BB gun, so my opinion doesn't matter.
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2k rifle and 1k scope? That's small potatos. Yeah we've got a bunch (perhaps even the majority) of 2k gun +1k scope rigs in Hunter class but we've got at least one 4k rig topped with a 4k scope in Hunter in my area.
The equipment race is real.
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When I started ft I wasn't in the same financial situation that I am now. I remember feeling pretty undergunned and underscoped and yes, it was discouraging to show up with my cheap stuff.
And no, I didn't start winning til I spent more money.
So to answer the OPs question about if we're doing Hunter wrong......Seems folks are pretty settled into Hunter as it is. If the goal is to bring in new people, then maybe we're doing it wrong. If the goal is to keep playing the equipment race with the same 10-15guys that comes every month, then I guess it's just fine as it is.
And no, I didn't start winning til I spent more money.
So to answer the OPs question about if we're doing Hunter wrong......Seems folks are pretty settled into Hunter as it is. If the goal is to bring in new people, then maybe we're doing it wrong. If the goal is to keep playing the equipment race with the same 10-15guys that comes every month, then I guess it's just fine as it is.
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The people blaming equipment here really need to take a step back and consider the following. If equipment was really that big of a game changer springer class scores wouldn't even be close to the PCP scores. Yet every grand prix leader board I see there they are, nearly neck and neck. Its the shooter
If you want to know why its the same 15 people every match its because nobody has heard of Field Target. I played with airguns for years before I randomly heard about it and got interested.
If you want to know why its the same 15 people every match its because nobody has heard of Field Target. I played with airguns for years before I randomly heard about it and got interested.
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The biggest hurdles for Field Target is exposure to people, those new people not having time to shoot and how near/far a club match is.
I've been shooting the past year and a half with modest equipment and having a blast. I drive a couple hours one way to make the Tacoma matches. It is a bit intimidating seeing the high budget rigs but, if you PRACTICE with your modest equipment, you CAN compete with top performers( as long as said equipment is consistently performing). But my biggest competition is ME.
I want to upgrade, but only because I enjoy the game so much. A good high quality tool in your hand feels empowering, enhances your experience and instills confidence. Like, good cookware, nice hand tools(I'm a mechanic) a well tuned dirt bike.
The best things we can do is TALK to people about Field Target and have a spare rig to let them use. Also, some window stickers for your car? My Oregon State Championship tee shirt gets attention every time I wear it!
I've been shooting the past year and a half with modest equipment and having a blast. I drive a couple hours one way to make the Tacoma matches. It is a bit intimidating seeing the high budget rigs but, if you PRACTICE with your modest equipment, you CAN compete with top performers( as long as said equipment is consistently performing). But my biggest competition is ME.
I want to upgrade, but only because I enjoy the game so much. A good high quality tool in your hand feels empowering, enhances your experience and instills confidence. Like, good cookware, nice hand tools(I'm a mechanic) a well tuned dirt bike.
The best things we can do is TALK to people about Field Target and have a spare rig to let them use. Also, some window stickers for your car? My Oregon State Championship tee shirt gets attention every time I wear it!
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nearest FT range is 2.5 hours drive (Invicta ,southern TN ) , but at the moment i am just too slow ,need more practice to set up and take down ,move to the next lane . Ranging off of sticks in not as easy as it looks , hope to participate next spring .
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This is sort of true with the WFTF GP shooters, there are 3 or 4 that are competitive with the PCP shooters. 12 fpe is a good equalizer.
This is not true at all in hunter class. Most hunter piston guns are shooting 12-14 fpe because you can't shoot them too hot off of sticks. If you look at the totals for last year's GP rankings, (I had a bunch of math and stats here, but I deleted them because who wants to read a bunch of numbers?) on average, the best hunter springer shooter last year shot around 30% less than the top PCP shooters in GP matches.
So I think you are incorrect in regards to Hunter Piston compared to Hunter PCP, the scores aren't close to neck and neck. Especially since Mark Welker went to the dark side. And that's fine, they don't need to be shooting the same scores. The reason I shoot Hunter Piston (and formerly WFTF Piston) is because I can have 2 or 3 of the best springers made for the price of a good PCP. And beating PCPs with a springer feels good, mostly because it doesn't happen very often.
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I stand corrected and probably over exaggerated some. My point was more or less the fact that if springer scores are still at least relatively close to their PCP counter parts, equipment isn't as big of a factor as some people here are claiming. Especially when comparing a budget PCP to a high end one.
A better gun and scope is great to have but I'm willing to bet if you gave a top tier PCP shooter a budget tier setup that still shoots decent, he's going to still score near the top of the list. Why? Because at the end of the day the targets are still pretty big! The guy who wins the match isn't the guy shooting the best equipment. It is the guy who read the wind best, factored the angle best, and very importantly, played the margin for error best. Field Target isn't a game of extreme precision. It is a game of shooter skill and reasonable accuracy.
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Now don't tempt Mark to come back. He beats me on a regular basis at OKC when he does shoot his tx. Heck most people beat me on a regular basis. Someone only on shoot offs, lol
Jon
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Hmmmm, this always seems to happen regardless of sport. The only way around it is one gun/one scope. Preferable sponsored by a manufacturer from each.
Only gun allowed, say Daystate Revere in .22 cal matched to a Hawke 4-16 scope model X (whatever X is). Pellet choice, run what works for your gun and scope combo. Only modifications to the gun allowed are Barrel Polish and trigger pull no lighter than 2 pounds.
Or AoA Sponsers a new class called "We the Plinkers" sells their kits for the $1,679 which has the following and Viola`. Beginners class, or any where up from there. Shot off a front bag only or Bipod. Targets random from 10' to 60'
Heck I'd probably buy one just to start competing.
Smitty
Only gun allowed, say Daystate Revere in .22 cal matched to a Hawke 4-16 scope model X (whatever X is). Pellet choice, run what works for your gun and scope combo. Only modifications to the gun allowed are Barrel Polish and trigger pull no lighter than 2 pounds.
Or AoA Sponsers a new class called "We the Plinkers" sells their kits for the $1,679 which has the following and Viola`. Beginners class, or any where up from there. Shot off a front bag only or Bipod. Targets random from 10' to 60'
- Daystate Revere Rifle
- Set of High 1" Dovetail Scope Mounts
- MTC Optics Mamba UltraLite 3-10x40 Side Focus Scope
- 0dB Compact Silencer
- Soft Case w/ We The Plinker patch
Heck I'd probably buy one just to start competing.
Smitty
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I think a restricted class would be great. Similarly, I enjoyed the challenge of them but gave up on springers for field target due to the lack of participants.
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From my firearm days... "A gun has to fit you". I've found this to be true with airguns also. It's great if you find a decent shooter that fits you for little coin but usually you have to spend some cash to get a gun that is adjustable or at least put some cash into a gun to get it to fit you properly. When a gun's weight, balance, cheek height, length of pull, shoulder comfort etc all fit you better, you're a better shooter. Guns with this adjustability cost more. I do believe better equipment helps any shooter's ability. But, once you have that "right" gun, you have to hone your skills or the expensive gun is a waste of money as is an expensive gun that does not fit the shooter. Imho!
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Hey Rob, good idea but there is no way the guys here in the USA would vote for that one. Most of the UK HFT boys and girls shoot with 10X Optisans scopes ( $ 500.00 ish ) sitting atop their $ 1000-4000 rifles. They shoot 80% laying prone on a shooting mat to stay out of the mud, have to touch the shooting pegs, and have the usual standing and kneeling unsupported shots AND standing and kneeling supported shots. Its real hunting conditions. Not to mention the UK just started a " sticks " class of HFT, in which they have to shoot all shots except the unsupported ones, standing up and using their monopod, bipod or tripod sticks. They shoot a 15 lane, 30 shot course, and get 2 pts for a kill, 1 point for hitting the face plate and 0 for a miss. All the while setting their parallax at about 25-30 yards and estimating target distances with the blur of the scope, along with other methods. They only shoot 8-45 yards tho, with targets between 15 and 40 mm. Sounds easy but is way harder than it appears. haha I can tell you from experimenting with it these days.
No matter how the USA changes the rules of hunter division down the road, no one will be happy on any side. Its always been and will be a we vs them. WFTF, vs Open vs Hunter. Shooters in each class seem to think that the guys from the other class has an advantage. I say we just all go out and shoot and have fun......BC
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I think we went down the wrong path with hunter class. It is now an equipment race. We should have kept it limited to 12x scopes and nonadjustable stocks, etc. it scares a lot of people off. When I was a match director it did not take long to notice I had guys with 80x March scopes and guys with 9x Leapers scopes. I couldn’t do anything about people’s budgets or equipment choices but I could do something about the targets. I started painting all my targets with a light colored face plates and black paddles. I wanted to even the playing field, the best I could, so now matter what scope you had you could clearly see the kill zone. I have better than average equipment and think it is bullpoop when a target is out there with a dark faceplate and paddle and I can’t tell where the KZ is located. In situations like that I needed to have spent another $1K+ on a scope. How do you think some new guy feels with a $100 UTG scope? I think we should follow the European model and use yellow face plates and black paddles. It should be about ability more than equipment. Don‘t get me wrong. I like nice stuff and own it. There should be a place for those starting out without nice stuff which is what I thought Hunter Class was all about.
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Well I’m new - one year into this HFT and I’ve bought just about every high end <20 fpe airgun available and tried most of the high end glass and guess what? I still suck!
Boys and their toys!
What really matters is practice and more practice especially in standing and kneeling lanes.
I think the two things restricting growth is lack of awareness of the sport and airgun venues - if you build it they will come !
Even here, on AGN, when asked about advertising materials, signage or presentations available for promotional purposes etc all I heard was crickets.
This is crucial to promoting any venue!
If you really want to level the playing field, make everyone get a knee replacement, old eyes, and a bad back…oh yeah…make ‘em fat too
I also bought lots of airgun FT rigs and targets so i can get people to come try FT every sunday at my home... no local club or range available; and although discrete i am still having to be on the down low if i want to stimulate interest in the hobby/sport.
Lastly the word “Hunter” implies a certain methodology and a desire to humanely kill your quarry - if I’m a squirrel I want the best shooter with the best equipment aiming at me.
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I'm on board with all of the above ^.
I see the HFT airgun sport as mostly older guys (not all but most) and they have more discretionary income and thus like to buy more or better toys; they get braggin rights even if they can't knock the rust off a steel building.
It's like an arms race which in a sense inspires creativity and innovation... are we going back to ball and cap muzzle loaders or does the world keep moving forward. Lets not have bot droids drones and gyro stabilized gizmos, but lets let the MARKET play out as that's a degree of inspiration (money) that does ultimately drive many aspects of many sports.
Besides the real joy of FT or HFT or Airguns is the PEOPLE i get to meet and shoot with.
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Thought I’d wait a while before i posted anything to get a chance to see what majority thinks. My first ft match was with a aa ev2 with a $500 hawke scope in around 2012. I had heard about ft and was excited to get into a new and i thought cheaper shooting sport. I bought the ev2 cause knowing shooting sports you need a good gun and scope or else your never going to do well. Would you buy a cheap 22 lr and scope to compete in silhouette?
Shooting sports of anykind sre not kind to cheap equipment! Here we are 13 years later and im shooting a ghost with an athlon argos and doing well with about the same money as i spent originally. Here in lies the problem in my mind- how to convince a person to spend $3000 on a bb gun to play a shooting game. Telling anyone they can be competitive with a $500 gun and $200 scope makes the person think your nuts! Especially after they see what everyone else is shooting. Can it be done yes but it takes a very good shooter!
Shooting sports of anykind sre not kind to cheap equipment! Here we are 13 years later and im shooting a ghost with an athlon argos and doing well with about the same money as i spent originally. Here in lies the problem in my mind- how to convince a person to spend $3000 on a bb gun to play a shooting game. Telling anyone they can be competitive with a $500 gun and $200 scope makes the person think your nuts! Especially after they see what everyone else is shooting. Can it be done yes but it takes a very good shooter!
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If people are wanting a level playing field with a cap on price for gun and scope that's fine but from my experience with prs nrl22 the production people soon goto open class why? I was the same way when I started in prs cheap/affordable to start the game and see if I like it. Well , I did and I wanted the better gun or a better chassis for that action. The better scope with the better glass and turrets and the list goes on and on. People want to do better at anything they like doing it's natural to want to improve. If you shoot long enough and get good enough you can out shoot your equipment meaning it's holding your performance back. If you're one of those folks that loves doing it more affordable and be competitive more power to you. Better equipment don't necessarily mean a better score but it does increase your odds of hitting more targets. For example you take a stock ruger 10/22 and then a Kidd supergrade 10/22 and any shooter will do better regardless of skill level with the Kidd. Better barrel,stock, trigger, action(even though same action). You can't buy skill and experience for ranging,reading wind but you can buy a better built gun and with better accuracy. To each his own and I will support you in your shooting because it's supposed to be fun that's why we do it right?
Jon
Jon
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