Are we doing hunter class wrong?

[drsquall]

But you still need a decent scope so you’re looking at $1000 to be somewhat competitive if not a bit more. It's the same with a revere but $500 more yet! I’ve shot a revere against my redwolf and the wolf has an edge (weight and adjustable) but the revere is just as accurate.

I love the revere and especially the safari edition. It's as simple as putting a scope on it and get to shooting. Very accurate but very light to me. I don't own one but I held it and shoot a few. Very solid I've thought getting one with the safari since it's adjustable cheek

 

[Franklink]

The other and more likely scenario would be that the years worth of experience bumped the scores higher than the new equipment did.

I've shot Hunter, Open, and Unlimited in the last year, in each of those matches I've missed one, or two, or if I'm having a bad day, 3 targets. The highest T was a 35 and that was a 60 shot match. I missed two that day (58/60). I was shooting Hunter in that 58/60 match. I've used two different guns in the last year, both guns over 2k, one of the with a nearly 1k scope, the other with a $600 scope.

If I went back to my first PCP and my first scope I would not be able to score that well, even with 7 or 8 years of experience shooting field target. Benjamin Discovery with a 3-9 UTG scope.

(Edit: I remembered that I had one match with 20-30mph gusts where I scored a 39/48 or something like that. First time in Hunter in a few years and I wasn't familiar with that barrel in the wind. The barrel was no bueno in the wind-which only further demonstrates my argument, scores are HEAVILY equipment influenced.)

 

[rob_g]

Hey Rob, good idea but there is no way the guys here in the USA would vote for that one. Most of the UK HFT boys and girls shoot with 10X Optisans scopes ( $ 500.00 ish ) sitting atop their $ 1000-4000 rifles. They shoot 80% laying prone on a shooting mat to stay out of the mud, have to touch the shooting pegs, and have the usual standing and kneeling unsupported shots AND standing and kneeling supported shots. Its real hunting conditions. Not to mention the UK just started a " sticks " class of HFT, in which they have to shoot all shots except the unsupported ones, standing up and using their monopod, bipod or tripod sticks. They shoot a 15 lane, 30 shot course, and get 2 pts for a kill, 1 point for hitting the face plate and 0 for a miss. All the while setting their parallax at about 25-30 yards and estimating target distances with the blur of the scope, along with other methods. They only shoot 8-45 yards tho, with targets between 15 and 40 mm. Sounds easy but is way harder than it appears. haha I can tell you from experimenting with it these days.

No matter how the USA changes the rules of hunter division down the road, no one will be happy on any side. Its always been and will be a we vs them. WFTF, vs Open vs Hunter. Shooters in each class seem to think that the guys from the other class has an advantage. I say we just all go out and shoot and have fun......BC

I think shooting the UK rules would be interesting.

Here in Canada the Hunter class is as follows:
- 16X max magnification used, can be turned down for standing if desired and returned to 16X
- no ranging with parallax, parallax graduations need to be covered
- parallax can be adjusted for fuzzy
- monopod, or self supporting only, no bipod
- shooting off stool unless forced positions (can shoot off bum bag if desired)
- targets 10-55 yds. (course usually set by all shooting at club matches so max distance can vary lol)

These conditions put a little more onus on the shooter and off the equipment. An expensive scope and rifle can be used (and who doesn't like those) but not necessary to be able to compete. A lot of the PCP rifles, over the wide price range, are pretty accurate these days. Springers have a little more variation. I find with Hunter class the ranging is the most difficult part.

 

[Sqwirl57]

I've mostly withheld but can no longer refrain.

I've shot Hunter, Open, and Unlimited in the last year, in each of those matches I've missed one, or two, or if I'm having a bad day, 3 targets. The highest T was a 35 and that was a 60 shot match if I remember correctly. I missed two that day (58/60). I was shooting Hunter in that 58/60 match. I've used two different guns in the last year, both guns over 2k, one of the with a nearly 1k scope, the other with a $600 scope.

If I went back to my first PCP and my first scope I would not be able to score that well, even with 7 or 8 years of experience shooting field target. Benjamin Discovery with a 3-9 UTG scope.

(Edit: I remembered that I had one match with 20-30mph gusts where I scored a 39/48 or something like that. First time in Hunter in a few years and I wasn't familiar with that barrel in the wind. The barrel was no bueno in the wind-which only further demonstrates my argument, scores are HEAVILY equipment influenced.)

Dude you are missing the point of this post by a mile. Regardless, the fact that you are shooting a 58 with mid tier scopes kind of proves the point that it is not "HEAVILY" influenced by the price of the equipment. It is heavily influenced by the PROPER equipment though which a 3-9x absolutely is not for hunter class. That being said I sure as hell bet you could still score in the 40s with that setup. The ability to place first is not the sole definition of "being able to compete" in local matches.

 

[Franklink]

...
I wonder if the fact that you "need" a $800+ scope to shoot hunter class competitively is part of what's holding back the growth of our sport.
...

That was from the original post that started this discussion.

 

[Spinach]

I think shooting the UK rules would be interesting.

Here in Canada the Hunter class is as follows:
- 16X max magnification used, can be turned down for standing if desired and returned to 16X
- no ranging with parallax, parallax graduations need to be covered
- parallax can be adjusted for fuzzy
- monopod, or self supporting only, no bipod
- shooting off stool unless forced positions (can shoot off bum bag if desired)
- targets 10-55 yds. (course usually set by all shooting at club matches so max distance can vary lol)

These conditions put a little more onus on the shooter and off the equipment. An expensive scope and rifle can be used (and who doesn't like those) but not necessary to be able to compete. A lot of the PCP rifles, over the wide price range, are pretty accurate these days. Springers have a little more variation. I find with Hunter class the ranging is the most difficult part.

I've followed this with interest, my FT and HFT experience has only been to UK rules, also adapted to parts of Europe that have different power levels. Less than UK! Where more they tend to stick to UK level and rules.

The US variables of the sport confuse but intrigue me. So many variables, so many diverse options.
Confused, just a outsider looking in. No criticism of the US format, more bemused.
It's interesting .

 

[Solo1]

Dude you are missing the point of this post by a mile. Regardless, the fact that you are shooting a 58 with mid tier scopes kind of proves the point that it is not "HEAVILY" influenced by the price of the equipment. It is heavily influenced by the PROPER equipment though which a 3-9x absolutely is not for hunter class. That being said I sure as hell bet you could still score in the 40s with that setup. The ability to place first is not the sole definition of "being able to compete" in local matches.

No you can’t say that if you buy a $3000 scope you will shoot perfect scores just like you can’t say any person can range better if he or she can’t see well enough to use top tier glass. I got glasses and my scores went up a bit using the same scope. There are sooo many things that come into play in this game that its not even funny. Last match i ran about 10 points down cause my back and hip were hurting so much. But im getting way off course now and will again say the best thing to try to keep new people in is to help them to have fun so they want to come back and from there try to help them have fun and let them decide how far they want to go.

 

[Sqwirl57]

That was from the original post that started this discussion.

Ope forgot about that part. Memory of a snail here. That being said, still no you don't need an $800 scope to be competitive IMO and I'll leave it at that because I think we're all sick of repeating the same 3 things here

 

[beerthief]

I've followed this with interest, my FT and HFT experience has only been to UK rules, also adapted to parts of Europe that have different power levels. Less than UK! Where more they tend to stick to UK level and rules.

The US variables of the sport confuse but intrigue me. So many variables, so many diverse options.
Confused, just a outsider looking in. No criticism of the US format, more bemused.
It's interesting .

I think we Americans are a confusing lot in general !

 

[Spinach]

I think we Americans are a confusing lot in general !

No judgement on my behalf, lived in Florida in the 80s, more at home in Europe.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Ten years ago I competed in my first FT event. Signed up for the Hunter PCP class at the first annual Pyramyd Cup. My rifle was a .22 FX Independence with a Hawke Sidewinder 4-16x50 scope, lobbing JSB 18.1 gr pellets at just under 20 ft-lbs. I didn’t even have a dope sheet. At the end of the weekend I was 2nd and won a .22 Marauder for my efforts.

Thats pretty impressive! I showed up to my first match with a .22 97K. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought .22 would be the best choice for the game. Although in your case, I guess it was lol.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Used a .22 FX and the same Hawke scope for several years and did very well with them.

Actually funny enough I had the same Sidewinder on my 97K except its the newer Gen 2. Its been a great scope.

Out of curiosity what do you shoot now?

 

[Berserkeley Mike]

My friend (frenemy) Mark posted something in a thread for a new shooter asking for recommendations and it got me thinking.
Here's what Mark said:

I'm not calling Mark out for his comment, it's very valid for the current state of hunter class. But it made me wonder, are we doing this wrong?

The original intention of the magnification limit for hunter class was so people didn't have to have a high end scope to be competitive. I wonder if the fact that you "need" a $800+ scope to shoot hunter class competitively is part of what's holding back the growth of our sport.

I think a more level playing field could be established if we went to a 24x hard magnification limit. So you could have a scope that goes up to maximum of 24x and shoot at 24x, but the scope couldn't be higher than 24x. No more 40x, 50x or 60x scopes in hunter class.

This isn't going to happen because almost every top hunter class shooter is shooting a big Sightron and they don't want to give them up. But I think that would make hunter class fun again and help "level the playing field", not to mention all of the old man fights we would get to be a part of that go along with rule changes to hunter class. Although the fact that I posted this here and not at the other site should show that I want to talk about this, not fight about it.

Funny side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a hunter class shooter on the BOG. I mean, Jeff occasionally shoots hunter class at monthly matches, but I think he's being ironic. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, I think everyone on the BOG is well respected (at least by me) and we voted them in. But maybe in the future we could establish seats on the board for each class so that everyone feels represented. Just a thought. I mean, we are such a tiny sport, eventually we will all be on the board at some point.

I admit to not being eager to compete in a sport that requires a lot of expensive equipment. Then part of the competition is who can spend more; is that a skill? What if there was a "Hopeless Class" in the sport or "Hopeless Field Target", where the cheap breakbarrels and Daisy multi-pumps could compete. In the end, divide the shot score by the assessed value of the kit (rifle plus optics) to get the weighted final score. Or drop all the guns in a pile and have people draw lots to see who gets to shoot what for the day. No way would anyone put an expensive rig in that pile. It would be fun! At least funny.

 

[Sqwirl57]

I admit to not being eager to compete in a sport that requires a lot of expensive equipment. Then part of the competition is who can spend more; is that a skill? What if there was a "Hopeless Class" in the sport or "Hopeless Field Target", where the cheap breakbarrels and Daisy multi-pumps could compete. In the end, divide the shot score by the assessed value of the kit (rifle plus optics) to get the weighted final score. Or drop all the guns in a pile and have people draw lots to see who gets to shoot what for the day. No way would anyone put an expensive rig in that pile. It would be fun! At least funny.

Cheap break barrels can compete if you're good with them. We had a very inexperienced couple show up to a match with a Gamo Varmint and they managed a 20 with that gun. They had fun and I think they ended up replacing it with a second hand Marauder for future matches.

 

[scotton]

I would like to explain my comment earlier that Scott has mentioned. My point really is that you need to pay attention to the glass you put on your gun as much as you put in the gun. I have shot and won with a friends Marauder with a old Hawke sidewinder on it, that I not never shot before the morning of the match. My personal belief is that most decent guns out there will compete as long as they can shoot a consistent speed with decent accuracy and a good trigger. I would like to add that you must be able to be confident at ranging the targets, close and far targets, to be competitive. So I do not believe that you must have a Sightron to be competitive but I do believe you must be confident in the ability of your gun and scope so you must not focus entirely on the gun but to also pay attention to the scope that you put on your gun.

I will say that as someone else has stated in this tread, the largest group of participants that I have found when looking at results all over the country is easily the pcp hunter class. This is evidence that there is nothing to fix. But as I have told many newer participants the key to hunter class is to know the distance, most guns are very capable to compete as long as you know the distance you are shooting.

One last thing I have never thought of Scott as a anything other than a friend, I have always appreciated his fun outlook towards Field Target.
Always remember to enjoy your time shooting.
Mark

Spoken like a true Glass Queen. And I only act friendly to you because I want to make you feel bad about beating me. Once I beat you, I will probably never speak to you again. Damn Okie.

And good luck in New Mexico if you are headed out there. If not, hope to see you at the ASC next week.

 

[cavedweller]

I love the revere and especially the safari edition. It's as simple as putting a scope on it and get to shooting. Very accurate but very light to me. I don't own one but I held it and shoot a few. Very solid I've thought getting one with the safari since it's adjustable cheek

I’m with you on the revere - if I could buy just the safari stock I’d put my existing action in it!

 

[cavedweller]

Imagine if you are trying to promote the sport-you do talks at archery clubs, scouting clubs, shooting clubs and so on……. Inevitably you will be asked “what does it cost for an FT setup I squirm I get sheepish and I say “somewhere between $1200. For a used gun and a used scope
but
You can easily spend upwards of $8000. For the best and newest equipment available.
Even if I emphasize it’s not about the money jaws drop and eyes droop. Remembering I haven’t mentioned things like support equipment.

 

[Sqwirl57]

You only need a gun capable of 2 MOA at 50yds to do really well in Field Target. The Marauder is anywhere between 1-2 so it is absolutely a great choice. From what I've read the Avenger is just as good for $300 less. Which means between sticks, a bucket, hand pump, scope and the gun you can be highly competitive for $750. Save up a bit more for a Yong Heng and you're only at $950

 

[Sqwirl57]

And with a little work, typically a Marauder can be made MUCH more accurate than you noted.

Exactly. This is a shooting sport and like every other shooting sport, it isn't dirt cheap to get started in. There is a bottom line but $750 for all NEW equipment isn't out of the realm of possibilities for most. Also like firearms, a little gunsmithing even small easy things, can drastically change a guns capabilities.

I think a lot of problem new (especially younger) shooters have is that they come into the game with over inflated egos. Field Target will teach you quickly that knocking over cans or shooting tight groups at a known range is not a good indicator of ability, although the potential is there if you practice properly. Thats where that first shooting partner at a match comes in. His ability to steer the new guy in the right direction and keep a smile on his face even though he is missing 80% of his shots is important.

 

[Sqwirl57]

What we need to make happen is we need to get the big retailers to advertise the game for us and do so clearly so people can't miss it. Right there on the homepage, a banner for Field Target that takes you to a page with videos, starter gear, and local match lists would do wonders. Not only would it benefit the game, the store is going to see an influx in sales. Its win/win.