Artillery hold

[Blooch58]

Can someone describe the “artillery hold” used with springers?

I have shot powder burners and air rifles all my life. Some were even springers per se. like the Red Ryder when I was a kid.

But recently purchased a Diana 48. Whole different beast.

 

[beerthief]

best way i can describe is the lightest hold you can , forearm is the flat of your hand fingers just touching not holding , same with your trigger hand . shoulder also very light do not pull into the shoulder . cheek should not press into the stock let the gun move with the forward and back motion it wants to . that is the best way to start . loose as possible with out dropping the gun

 

[WorriedMan]

Blooch,
Check out some YouTube videos, there are some good ones. In a nutshell, springers and nitro-pistons have a "double" recoil when fired and too tight a grip can cause poor accuracy. If you've ever seen an old-style artillery gun firing, rolling back, under recoil, that is where the "artillery hold" description arose. Let the gun double-recoil naturally, not tightly held, and you'll be practicing the artillery hold. WM

 

[boscoebrea]

A 48 is a tough one, you hold it not tight,just enough so you do not influence the "recoil" going up or down,a slightly open palm with nice shoulder "kiss'.
It is a rather heavy springer and you will not train it,it will train you to what you need to do.
It can also be a scope buster plus mine needed a 10 degree one piece scope mount because of the barrel droop.
It is accurate and powerful and one of the better long distance shooters.
There are tune kits that can help tame it ....
I always thought that they are overpowered,meaning I use heavy pellets in mine.
In the end it is a unique springer that takes practice to get the most out of.

 

[ITACUD]

Light and loose.

 

[Harv24]

Watch a video on an artillery piece fire. the entire barrel recoils backwards about 12" to 15" inches.
A large spring and oil help dampen the recoil of the gun as it fires to keep it in roughly the same place.

You're doing roughly the same thing. With a powder burning gun, you're trying to hold the gun tight, with a Springer, you're allowing the recoil to "come back" into you, and not trying to "muscle" the gun and hold it in place.

Basically, fire the gun, and let it recoil back into you.

 

[elh0102]

Repeatable accuracy, in any discipline, gets down to consistency. As BR shooters learned, the pressure most consistently applied, is 0, let the rifle move. And the "artillery" technique is simply a form of that principle. Experiment, you might find another approach is better for you. Anything you can repeat consistently is your choice.

 

[Raden1943]

I would also add that sometimes where you hold the gun matters. I generally place my palm flat an inch or two forward of the center of balance for most guns but each rifle is different. You will have to try a few different positions and find out where your gun likes to be held.

 

[MikeVV]

No wrap-around on the grip. Thumb on the trigger finger side.
There's even a couple of AR (AR-15 rifle) grips with a thumb "shelf" to rest your thumb on. I have one on my Impact Mk3.
Again, light hold.

Seems to work for me also, (PCP) .

Mike

 

[badger5th]

Natural Point of Aim. Bench: Get in position to shoot with the light hold as described. Then close your eyes and completely relax. Wait about 5 seconds and open your eyes. If you are off target adjust your whole body and repeat the eyes closed/relax/open eyes exercise. With the arty hold you want the gun to be naturally on target with no torso muscle effort.

Standing/offhand: Arty hold place your off hand at the center of gravity of the rifle, rest your tricep muscle against your ribs, keep the hand under the foreend open. Will need a bit more cheek contact shooting offhand, but still keep it very light on the shoulder. Same eyes/relax/eyes. If you are off target move your rear foot only then repeat.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

No wrap-around on the grip. Thumb on the trigger finger side.
There's even a couple of AR (AR-15 rifle) grips with a thumb "shelf" to rest your thumb on. I have one on my Impact Mk3.
Again, light hold.

Seems to work for me also, (PCP) .

Mike

Does shooting from bipods or tripods work for you too?

 

[Rawroots]

I agree with Raden, first make sure the stock screws are not loose, clean the barrel, find the pellets that seem to group with your gun and start shooting 5 shot groups with different balance points and grips , trying to do the same feel for every 5 shot group, oh and choose a calm not breezy day.

 

[badger5th]

Watch a video on an artillery piece fire. the entire barrel recoils backwards about 12" to 15" inches.
A large spring and oil help dampen the recoil of the gun as it fires to keep it in roughly the same place.

You're doing roughly the same thing. With a powder burning gun, you're trying to hold the gun tight, with a Springer, you're allowing the recoil to "come back" into you, and not trying to "muscle" the gun and hold it in place.

Basically, fire the gun, and let it recoil back into you.

You are dead right regarding springer recoil however there is a significant fundamental difference between gunpowder artillery recoil and springer airgun recoil. Regarding real artillery I have 30 years experience live firing muzzle loading artillery in competitions. Like any firearm, artillery recoil is usually insignificant until the projectile has left the muzzle.

This above photo is a "unicorn" blind luck photo. The projectile is exiting the muzzle at this very instant. The grey "flower petals" at the muzzle are gases exiting around the projectile via the seven rifling grooves in the cannon. The firing lanyard is still springing back towards the cannoneer who fired the gun. The vent blast is only three feet high and all fire. If you look at the gun trail you will see it is squarely on a piece of plywood which we use to reduce friction in traverse sighting. Recoil has not even started in this photo and the projectile is at the muzzle. Next photo:

The gun is in recoil and from the muzzle blast the shell is on its way to a target a half mile away. The crew member's images are sharp but the gun wheels are blurred. Also note that the trail is no longer on the plywood as in the first photo. The recoil is approximately 6 feet.

Free recoil of artillery does not effect accuracy. The reason for free rolling recoil with the CW/muzzleloading guns and spring buffers in modern arty is to allow the guns to be operated without recoil stresses breaking things. Spring buffers also allowed recoil spades to be used so you don't have to manually roll the gun back into battery after each shot.

A springer air gun goes "sproing, slam, rattle" while the pellet is still in the barrel. The loose hold allows a springer to recoil the same way with every shot. With pellet still in the barrel the loose hold is critical for accuracy by making the recoil derangement as consistent as possible shot to shot. Regards, Badger.

 

[Blooch58]

Thanks everyone. I think I understand the plan now. Just opposite of what I would do intuitively.

 

[WorriedMan]

Blooch,
Couple years back a neighbor sold me a one-year-old $250 Benjamin Trail NP XL .22, for $25. He hated it, hard to cock, heavy and no accuracy. Gave barrel a good cleaning, minor trigger mod, found preferred pellet and learned artillery hold. She's been a good shooter ever since. Best of luck with your efforts, WM

 

[rikkochet]

You are dead right regarding springer recoil however there is a significant fundamental difference between gunpowder artillery recoil and springer airgun recoil. Regarding real artillery I have 30 years experience live firing muzzle loading artillery in competitions. Like any firearm, artillery recoil is usually insignificant until the projectile has left the muzzle.
View attachment 288062
This above photo is a "unicorn" blind luck photo. The projectile is exiting the muzzle at this very instant. The grey "flower petals" at the muzzle are gases exiting around the projectile via the seven rifling grooves in the cannon. The firing lanyard is still springing back towards the cannoneer who fired the gun. The vent blast is only three feet high and all fire. If you look at the gun trail you will see it is squarely on a piece of plywood which we use to reduce friction in traverse sighting. Recoil has not even started in this photo and the projectile is at the muzzle. Next photo:
View attachment 288063
The gun is in recoil and from the muzzle blast the shell is on its way to a target a half mile away. The crew member's images are sharp but the gun wheels are blurred. Also note that the trail is no longer on the plywood as in the first photo. The recoil is approximately 6 feet.

Free recoil of artillery does not effect accuracy. The reason for free rolling recoil with the CW/muzzleloading guns and spring buffers in modern arty is to allow the guns to be operated without recoil stresses breaking things. Spring buffers also allowed recoil spades to be used so you don't have to manually roll the gun back into battery after each shot.

A springer air gun goes "sproing, slam, rattle" while the pellet is still in the barrel. The loose hold allows a springer to recoil the same way with every shot. With pellet still in the barrel the loose hold is critical for accuracy by making the recoil derangement as consistent as possible shot to shot. Regards, Badger.

That first picture is a cracker, if the timing had been 0.00001 seconds either way it would have been just another gun firing.
But the gun was already moving back by the time the projectile reached the muzzle, though it had not move back far enough to be noticeable.

 

[badger5th]

That first picture is a cracker, if the timing had been 0.00001 seconds either way it would have been just another gun firing.
But the gun was already moving back by the time the projectile reached the muzzle, though it had not move back far enough to be noticeable.

In a theoretical sense with a frictionless world you are right. Before the projectile and hot gases leave the gun it is still a closed system. The cannon weighs 1,700 lbs and the shell (in this case) is 10 lbs. Total system weight 1,710 lbs. The barrel length is 6 feet.

By conservation of momentum 10lbs/1710lbs = 0.00585 x 6 feet = 0.036 feet or 0.42 inches it would recoil before the projectile leaves the muzzle. In the real friction world it ain't moving, believe me. That gun does single holes groups at 200 yards.

 

[foxhunterbubba]

this has been very helpful

 

[Springrrrr]

Some spring guns don't do well with the artillery hold. My 48 liked to be held tight for best results. I have tried different holds in many different ways and found a loose hold on my particular gun was not the best.

 

[DesertSilver]

I was just going to post something about that. Back in 90 or 91 when I got my very first springer I had no knowledge of artillery hold. Not even sure anybody had come up with it yet. I always used the military form of wrapping the sling around my left arm and holding the weapon real tight. I did the same thing with the .177 Diana m34 I had. It was always very accurate for me shooting ground squirrels. Heck, I even got lucky once and guessed the correct hold over and windage and shot a ground squirrel right in the ear at 90 paces which someone estimated as 85 yards. Scope didn't have MDOT or any other hash marks on the reticle so as I said it was all guess work.